Dual Wield Pistols or Just Go Rifle?

somafabitsomafabit Posts: 2
edited January 2013 in Vanquisher Discussions
I'm confused about whether dual wielding is effective for a gun toting Vanguisher. Reading these forums, it seems that dual wield doesn't work when using skill based attacks (ricochet, etc.). Is this correct and, if so, does it make any sense to dual wield or should I just go for rifles and/or two handed bows?

Thanks.

Comments

  • TheOgreTheOgre Posts: 90
    Yeah, Vanquishers don't seem to benefit much (beyond stacking life & mana steal, of course, as well as other stats & abilities) from Dual Wielding pistols. Pistol + shield (especially on Hard & Very Hard when you're going to feel rather fragile if/when stuff starts hitting you) or rifle (but not bow/crossbow - apparently rifles have a longer range than the other missile weapons. Also seems to be easier to find faster rifles than bows/crossbows, and faster's better, especially if it's got any +damage on it).
  • OninOnin Posts: 9
    Weapon speed doesn't matter when spamming your special shots, since they're spells.

    Personally, I've found 2-handed rifles to be worthless. Their DPS is hardly better than the 1-handers, especially after skilling Dual-wield. So unless you find a really awesome one, I'd stick with dual-wielding or a shield, whichever you prefer.
  • GincioGincio Posts: 72
    With Dual wielding, ranged weapons expertise and critical strikes maxed out the the plain shots from the two guns can do a whole lot of hurting. With some knock back, and life/mana steal you almost don't need other shots. I've been focusing on those skills plus traps and it has been nice. I have a bit over 100 KB and seldom need to use wind of justice except for very large groups.

    I guess it would depend on how you like to play and what build you are using. My other vanquisher is rifle based and the range can be nice too.
  • Onin wrote:
    Weapon speed doesn't matter when spamming your special shots, since they're spells.

    Actually, you will notice that many spells indicate they scale up based on your DPS, not total damage.

    Using a rifle or a pistol and shield is definitely the way to go. You get almost no benefit from dual wielding unless you want to NOT use your awesome attack skills!
  • I think some important questions to be asked here are...

    1.Do the vanquisher marksman skills take into account both weapons' DPS? As in; if one weapon has 235 DPS, and another has 265 DPS, does explosive shot use 500 DPS as the base number for it's DMG?

    2.Also, if it's the weapon's DPS being used, what is the point of maxing out ranged weapon expertise? Does this increased dmg factor into the explosive shot and other skill DMG? By the skill description, I would say no, and would assume that if I do not plan on firing plain shots, I could use those skill points in traps and other skills to make a much more balanced char.

    3. If it is only based of the weapon's DPS, why put points into DEX?

    This is my first vanq, and the skills work way different than the 2 lvl 100 alchemists and various test alchs. I have made. :?
  • Onin wrote:
    Weapon speed doesn't matter when spamming your special shots, since they're spells.

    Actually, you will notice that many spells indicate they scale up based on your DPS, not total damage.

    Using a rifle or a pistol and shield is definitely the way to go. You get almost no benefit from dual wielding unless you want to NOT use your awesome attack skills!

    The Arbiter tree's Dual Wield ability stacks with Ranged Weapons Expertise. So you get the effects of both damage enhancements.

    Most of the time my dual wield Vanquisher does higher damage with the pistols on the special shots than with a rifle because of this. Rifles only get the Ranged Weapons Expertise damage bonus.
  • LillisLillis Posts: 189
    Quijibo wrote:
    1.Do the vanquisher marksman skills take into account both weapons' DPS? As in; if one weapon has 235 DPS, and another has 265 DPS, does explosive shot use 500 DPS as the base number for it's DMG?
    ES uses the DPS-value of your main-hand weapon (the leftmost weapon slot in the inventory menu).
    Quijibo wrote:
    2.Also, if it's the weapon's DPS being used, what is the point of maxing out ranged weapon expertise? Does this increased dmg factor into the explosive shot and other skill DMG? By the skill description, I would say no, and would assume that if I do not plan on firing plain shots, I could use those skill points in traps and other skills to make a much more balanced char.
    Skills that mention DPS only use the DPS-value as a base (in favor of total damage). You still benefit damage-wise from any %ED (DEX, Skill-ED%, etc.)
    Quijibo wrote:
    3. If it is only based of the weapon's DPS, why put points into DEX?
    See "2)". ;)

    ...

    At least, this is what I've found in my (simple) testing.
  • hmm... I'm not really sure about %ED affecting skills based on DPS. I haven't tested anything really thoroughly, but so far it seems like dexterity and Ranged weapon expertise only increase total damage. I would certainly like to be able to know for sure though.
  • zunkinzunkin Posts: 9
    Actually I find dual wielding is by far the best option for doing some serious damage with any skill that is based on dps. You simply can't get the same sort of damage output with something like a rifle. There are several reasons for this.

    First and most important, the skills that base their damage off of dps don't simply use the dps number shown when you look at the weapon. The damage per second value that is used actually includes several other undisplayed factors. One of the important factors included in this unseen dps value is the damage modifiers granted by your other equipment, primarily from your second weapon and your rings and amulets. You can add hundreds to the unseen dps value the skills are based on this way. An easy way to test it is to take a pistol and a rifle with the same or very similiar damage output. You can check this by looking on your character stat info where it shows your damage. Then add a dual wielded pistol to your empty hand that has a good bit of damage bonus. You will see a serious increase in your base damage. You will also notice it when you go out and start blasting away with explosive shot or other dps based skill of choice. You can also use a sword or other melee weapon in your off hand in this same way. I find that melee weapons often have better critical hit bonuses on them so my off handed weapon is often a unique sword or something similiar with a bunch of damage and critical hit bonuses on it.

    Other factors that will increase the unseen dps score used to calculate the damage done by skills like explosive shot include dexterity, the dual wielding skill, ranged weapon mastery etc. Pretty much anything that raises the damage number next to your dexterity if you are using a ranged weapon seems to increase the damage done by explosive shot. I think that the magic damage is also added in. By magic damage I mean your elemental weapons bonuses like fire, ice, etc. Some range weapons even include some type of elemental magic damage in their base dps like the drunkendwarf persuader for instance.
  • zunkinzunkin Posts: 9
    The difference in my max hit when I am dual wielding a pistol vs a comparable rifle with explosive shot is quite massive. When I have dual wielding maxed, and my off handed weapon has several hundred points of bonus damage on it, my critical hits will max several thousand points higher than with the rifle.
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    TheOgre wrote:
    Yeah, Vanquishers don't seem to benefit much (beyond stacking life & mana steal, of course, as well as other stats & abilities) from Dual Wielding pistols. Pistol + shield (especially on Hard & Very Hard when you're going to feel rather fragile if/when stuff starts hitting you) or rifle (but not bow/crossbow - apparently rifles have a longer range than the other missile weapons. Also seems to be easier to find faster rifles than bows/crossbows, and faster's better, especially if it's got any +damage on it).

    Don't know where you could have seen the misinformation that rifles have the longest range. It is easy to demonstrate that crossbows have the longest natural range, by a nice margin. Also Torchlight Armory has the info readily avaialable.

    There is a tendency for Unique rifles to be faster than most crossbows, but powerful rifles also include some of the slowest missile weapons. Bows probably tend to be the fastest missile weapons on average, and 'fastest' for a bow is slightly faster in absolute terms than 'fastest' rifle. Once you advance 15-20 levels it doesn't matter much; you need the powerful single shots to cut the armor on bosses, and you use ES, Ricochet, Fireball, etc AOE stuff to clear the minions.

    BTW, the longer range on crossbows tends to make up for the more moderate speed, because you can take more 'unsuspecting' shots, and more shots during an enemy charge.

    Dual-wield Stark Fists are the BEST missile weapon combo, however.

    dreamrider
  • hi. right now i am using a very good rifle w/ 1.5k dps and my current dmg is 10k. and also i have this 900+ dps pistol so i dup'ed it and used two of them. but why is it i still got the same dmg even if i equip only 1? like if i equip the 1st pistol i got 3k dmg. upon equipping 2nd same pistol, i still get 3k dmg. why? do i need to use different pistols? currently i am happy w/ my 2h rifle. even though it hurts in VHHC. i managed to kill odrak w/ >3k dmg w/ spammed 4 traps + hail arrow :)
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    Well, each shot only comes from one pistol. You should get the enchantment effects from both pistols, however. the Dual Wield Skill should increase the damage from each pistol, while you are carrying both.

    Be aware that not all damage modifiers will be reflected in the DPS shown. As far as the forum community can tell, the displayed DPS is calced only from the modifiers on THAT weapon. Character per shot damage on the character sheet reflects more of the total modifiers, but still not necessarily everything.

    dreamrider
  • VodageVodage Posts: 80
    I'm still not sure about this, but having respecced my Hard Vanq into max dual-wield, I can at least formulate somewhat of an opinion on it.

    The main advantage of dual-wielding pistols is that you are going to have potentially double the stat bonuses used when firing your weapon.
    Keep in mind that, at least with regular shots(haven't tested it with special attacks), many bonuses (such as "hit steals **** life, or **** armor degraded on hit") will proc on every shot.
    This is in contrast to, for example, having a mana steal in main hand, a health steal in the other, and only stealing health when you fire with your offhand weapon.

    I believe the dual-wield talent was designed to make up for the simple fact that 1-handers have less damage per shot than 2-handers.
    It's pretty balanced; I noticed that when I switched from a 'fastest' rifle to two 'fastest' pistols, I was gaining regular-shot damage at the cost of attack speed.
    With the mana/life/armor degraded on hit modifiers being based on per-shot integers rather than "steals x% of your damage as life",
    attack speed is far more crucial in this game than in Diablo series. The same can be said of knockback.

    So far, I feel like it's balanced enough that it mainly depends on 1)What items you have available to use, and 2)What you have the most fun using. Granted, dropping 10 skill points into dual-wield will sortof "lock you into" using a pistol in each hand, as well as take away 10 points which could have been spent elsewhere had you gone the rifle route, but that's not to say it isn't worth it.

    Pistol/shield is still a viable option, even with 10 points into dual-wield, since you're always sacrificing damage when you equip a shield, regardless of where you put skill points.
    The only question I would have (and would want to test further) would be how dual-wield applies to special skill damage, and, for that matter, how ranged expertise applies.
    If it simply doesn't apply at all, that would mean you'd have dual-wield for regular shots, and pistol/shield for your attack skills, without losing skill damage by using your shield.
    You could even take that a step further and also have a rifle in your inventory to use with special skills when a shield isn't needed.
    The ability to pause the game (and switch equipment while paused) makes this easy, even though you only have two weapon sets that you can swap with a hotkey.

    I know that mana/life steal on hit doesn't proc when using special attacks, but I'm a bit hazy as to knockback, and am clueless as far as armor degraded.
    Most likely these don't proc either, but don't take my word for it. Test it!
  • VodageVodage Posts: 80
    Onin wrote:
    Weapon speed doesn't matter when spamming your special shots, since they're spells.

    Actually, you will notice that many spells indicate they scale up based on your DPS, not total damage.

    Using a rifle or a pistol and shield is definitely the way to go. You get almost no benefit from dual wielding unless you want to NOT use your awesome attack skills!

    More specifically, spells scale based on WEAPON dps, not YOUR dps. Weapon dps is calculated with weapon per-shot damage and weapon speed.
    The question is if the game re-calculates weapon dps based on your cast speed. If that were the case, it may explain the odd findings people have had when testing weapon spell damage.
    If that isn't the case, then yeah, weapon speed won't matter while using your spells, since it's just half of the weapon DPS calculation.
    By the time the weapon DPS gets over to the spell, it's already been calculated. This is at least how I think it works.

    It may be that the weapon's physical damage is getting calculated as we would expect, but things like "+**** frost damage" aren't.
    In other words, the frost damage on the weapon is being added to every spell hit, instead of averaged into the equation ahead of time.

    Has anyone noticed any frozen monsters while using explosive shot on a weapon that adds cold damage?
    Or the lightning bolts flying everywhere from lightning damage? These would be things to watch for.
  • Robsta43Robsta43 Posts: 8
    As someone who is a fan of Ele-Rifle vanquishers, I can safely say +% ice damage does increase the damage of explosive shot (and probably all the other similar skills). As I said, have now built 2 vanquishers that have primarily used the unique rifles that deal only elemental damage (Such as the Ice Dragonne and Thunder Dragonne). From my observations using explosive shot with these weapons, I gain bonus damage from Ranged weapon mastery, Dex stat points, Magic stat points (because the main damage is elemental), +% elemental damage from the weapon itself and other sources, +% ranged damage, +% all physical/elemental damage, any +damage (especially of the types that have +% such as ice with an ice dragonne), and of course crit chance and +% crit damage. I'm not sure either way about +attack speed. I know that +cast speed increases how fast you can shoot your skills, and therefore increase damage by casting more skills.

    My observations about +attack speed: When I switched from a weapon with a slow base attack speed and high damage to one with higher attack speed and about the same damage, I did see my damage improve remarkably. (Suggesting attack speed is important). However, whenever I use the dervish spell I do not see a boost to damage, only to how often you can shoot exploding shots, so this would suggest attack speed does not improve damage.

    I'm not sure about if the element of the attack effects the element of exploding shot because my vanqs have a tenancy to kill everything they see very fast. I think I do remember trying to use an ice damage rifle against a unique ice elemental and it not being very effective once, but that was a while ago now.

    Oh as a note, I don't think I've seen exploding shot slow enemies (with the ice dragonne) or spark enemies (with the thunder dragonne) but as I said before, sometimes it's hard to tell when they die very fast. I do know your auto attacks can slow/spark, which can be helpful against champion Juggernaut trolls occasionally (even though they're easy enough to kite anyways).
  • SilvernisSilvernis Posts: 231
    Rifles are ****, number-crunching be damned. :p
  • oogsoogs Posts: 4
    The only reason I'm playing with a rifle is that it does all ice damage (ok, and I put a gem in that gives me 13 hp/sec) and I have a lot of gear that gives me +ice % (a couple pieces that give +35%!!!). My 258 dps rifle (at level 14 mind you) hits for upwards of 600 with the ricochet, and I am working on getting a bonused crit.
  • VomaxxVomaxx Posts: 65
    Hmmm... I usually use a 2-handed weapon (rifle or crossbow) in one slot and a pistol + shield in the other. I greatly value the increased protections a shield provides when facing the real nasties--you know who I mean. This on the whole works very well, so I don't use Dual-Wielding. (I don't really use Explosive Shot, either. Ricochet seems very effective against crowds, supplemented by Arrow Hail.)
  • zekromzekrom Posts: 114
    Vomaxx wrote:
    ........ (I don't really use Explosive Shot, either. Ricochet seems very effective against crowds, supplemented by Arrow Hail.)

    if ricochet is "very effective" against crowds then explosive shot should be devastating......
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    It is, but if you are going to use one Skill for both, Ricochet scales higher which makes it the shot of choice vs high level singles. (Yes, even over Seeking, once you allow for having to cut through target defenses with each of the 3 seekers.)

    Ricochet also reaches its top scaling level sooner than ES.

    dreamrider
  • zekromzekrom Posts: 114
    of course ricochet does more damage than explosive(198% vs 164%). but against "crowds" explosive with its huge blast radius..... :|
    some skills which have % weapon damage also a "soakscalepct" which takes only that much of target armor into account. seeking is one of them. at level 10 seeking has 72% of your weapon damage(each of the 3) and 78% of target resist(again for all 3 shots). so its like 216% weapon damage - 234% armor(not 300%) and hence ricochet may NOT be higher. also, generally weapon damage is much higher than monster armor.
  • Rifle very long range is cool anyway. What I don't like in Pistols with Shield or not it's their very low range. I'm still building a second weapon set with pistol and shield but not two weapons because spend points in two weapons skill makes no sense if you want use often a rifle or a bow.

    Replaying TL1 with a Vanquisher made me regret there's not minigun, sort of flamethrower, and more special guns. :-) Mmm with a minigun can you imagine the healing rate with life on hit? Woo. Yeah that sort of stuff would need be designed but it's possible.
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    For your "minigun effect" (in steampunk setting???), just add attack speed affixes and enchantments until you are shooting like a machine gun. There's a limit but it is plenty high enough to keep your health up. Start with an organ gun or ribaldequin for best speed.

    dreamrider
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