If not Devastate, what?

rking12345678rking12345678 Posts: 154
edited August 2012 in Destroyer Discussions
Devastate's boring, but I still want a Destroyer in my character screen. What other skills work well on hard mode for progressing through the main story and deeper into the Shadow Vault? Would there be any reason to assemble said new Destroyer with a sword/shield or stick to dual wielding? Thanks for any suggestions.

Comments

  • PhoteusPhoteus Posts: 100
    Get a really fast sword / shield and use Spectral Echo. The shield will keep you defended, the echos can generally wreck anything nearby. It's pretty much regarded as the second-best destroyer skill, and it works really well. Also, it kinda makes knockback worth it, because you can knock enemies back and blow them away with echos.

    Dual wield is not so effective with Echo, I think. Good luck with your Destroyer!
  • SuaveSuave Posts: 18
    Actually, dual wielding works best with echo, shield would just halve your damage.
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  • Although I havent actually tested that one myself, everyone on this forum so far as I've seen has said that echo does not use both weapons, only devastate and slash do... Are you sure on echo using both weapons?

    edit: of course, dual wield does help since it increases the damage your normal attacks do, but that's only one monster at a time and only if you don't knock them back out of range with your echos... It shouldn't affect echo damage though I think, and certainly not half it (since dual wield skill only adds 60% at max).
  • SuaveSuave Posts: 18
    Yes, tested it, and dual wielding doesn't seem to increase the ranged damage from echo, but it increases the overall damage, so in my opinion, if you are going for a spectral echo destroyer a shield would indeed decrease - not halve, I exagerated - the overall damage since you are relying on normal melee damage aswell.

    Echo using both weapons at the same time would be great, wouldn't it?
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  • PhoteusPhoteus Posts: 100
    Yep, you have decreased damage, but you can output some great ownage with some knockback, crits, and weapon speed. I think Devestate is more for an offensive, dual weapon build, where echo works best for a more defensive build. It's all for flavor, but if you're tired of Devestate, why not try Echo?
  • SuaveSuave Posts: 18
    Flavor indeed, since devastate does the same amount of damage echo does after all
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  • Well if you're in the higher levels, on Very Hard for example, or even Hard....ESPECIALLY on ****...a shield can be a lifesaver. Not only do you get the extra armor, you get the ability to block, which is increased by skills/gear. You can be taking ALOT less damage.
  • Suave wrote:
    Actually, dual wielding works best with echo, shield would just halve your damage.

    thats quite wrong. Echo only takes the damage from your main hand so its damage is uneffected. One of your errors is that dual wield does double 1 hand, which is also not true as your weapons dont both hit at once, they alternate swings.
  • SirCowdogSirCowdog Posts: 71
    Is there some reason why you can't use both?
  • NihilistNihilist Posts: 73
    Can't use both what?

    Both weapons? - You can use two weapons, but they alternate swings on regular attacks

    Spectral Echo combo'd w/ Devastate? - I'm not sure on this one, though I know I've seen someone post a Thread here about using both skills, regular attacking and then using Devastate after the Echo has triggered for some pretty nice damage.
  • SirCowdogSirCowdog Posts: 71
    I found a video of someone using both Devastate and Spectral Echo, although it looked a little bit out of whack. Not sure if it would be any more effective than just using one or the other.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxSQ-lqEsYo
  • i'd like to see him do that in combat though, it sounds good but i bet in practice it's not so great
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  • NihilistNihilist Posts: 73
    That would be a lot of l.click>r.click>l.click>r.click while maintaining cursor position. I'd get freakin' annoyed.
  • it's quite easy though. hold SHIFT, LMB~RMB. with haste, of course, you lunge much farther without click-move with the mouse. correct me if i'm wrong, but do i see (and hear) 2 initial echoes on the first slash? lol :D here's the skill-stacking in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzxp3CW_PG8
  • ZarhrezzZarhrezz Posts: 46
    When doing Spectral Echo, there are really only 2 options: 1-handed + shield for defense or 2-handed. Below I'll show why Dual Wield and Echo is a very poor choice.

    There is a big difference between using a 1-handed weapon and using a 2-handed weapon with Spectral Echo. To illustrate some calculation:
    We need to consider speed (how quickly do we throw Echo's), so there's 1/speed in our equation.
    We need to consider DPS since this is the basis of Echo damage, so we multiply by DPS.
    Since 3 Echo's can be active at the same time, we multiply by 3.
    Of course there may be other factors affecting speed and DPS (like the level of Echo), but those are all multipliers in the whole picture so we can leave them out the comparison.

    So our equation is (1/speed)*(3*DPS) or 3*DPS/speed.

    Sorting the enchanted weapon on speed and calculating the result of the equation above for the highest DPS weapon for a given speed gives us the highest "total Echo output" by the Epic Mounted Bow (3965) as highest 2-handed and the Epic Dragoncrest Mace (2614) as highest 1-handed weapon. In this case, going to 2-handed from 1-handed is a 52% damage output increase.

    The same can be repeated for Uniques (Epic The Legendary Crushgroove Blade vs Epic The Unknowable) to see 41% more damage for the 2-handed approach and for Set items (Epic Magnus' Sleeping Overlord vs Epic The Right Hand of Orlac) for a 65% damage increase for camp 2-handed.

    So when it comes to Spectral Echo, dual wield gives you a 60% bonus on your single target normal attack, while going 2-handed without that bonus yields 50% more damage on your multi-target Echo.
  • SymbolSymbol Posts: 89
    You can keep 3 copies of echo going at once which pumps the damage waay up. Plus echo has a good sized AoE as well. I wouldn't be surprised if a big fast 2hander with 3xecho ends up being the most damaging destroyer build.
  • Symbol wrote:
    You can keep 3 copies of echo going at once which pumps the damage waay up. Plus echo has a good sized AoE as well. I wouldn't be surprised if a big fast 2hander with 3xecho ends up being the most damaging destroyer build.
    If you run the numbers, you'll find that the Epic Ribauldequin is the weapon of choice.

    The reason for this is the fact that it's the 0.5 speed weapon with the highest base damage. Due to this speed, each +dmg enchantment on the weapon will raise its DPS more than the same amount of +dmg on a slower weapon.

    The formula for the DPS number turns out to be the following: DPS = 1.8 * ((min dmg + max dmg)/2)/speed. So the lower the speed, the more the DPS number increases when the average damge goes up (due to +dmg enchants or socketing). Plus, you throw out your Echo's (that are purely based on the DPS number for damage) faster...3.6 time per second for a 0.5 speed weapon vs 3.0 times per second for a 0.6 speed weapon.

    If you have an Epic Ribauldequin with a total of +238 damage, it's DPS value will be 1468 and it's damage output (DPS*(hit/second)) will be 5286. When compared to an Epic Jagshard Bow with +238 damage, we see that the DPS value will be 1761 and it's damage output 5284...yay for the Ribauldequin. With increasing +damage over +238, this gap will only become bigger.

    I'm starting to believe more and more that Spectral Echo is in fact the highest damage power in the game. You stack 3 times 94% of the DPS value. There is no other power that deals almost 300% of the DPS number at the highest attack speed. Bottom line is that DPS increases faster (as a raw number) than average damage of the weapon (1.8/speed faster, so up to 3.6 times as fast) so any skill that is based on weapon damage instead of DPS gets left behind. And plain x-y damage skills just don't scale too well to start with. Which means Spectral Echo is made of win.
  • Going back to the original question, I also think a specialized Aura of Thorns build could be fun and probably viable.

    Thing is, Aura of Thorns deals Magical Damage. Anyone else notice how your character has no Magical resistance? Same goes for monsters. In other words, the full amount of Aura of Thorns damage will always be applied to enemies within the area, no reduction by armor/resistance.

    Aura of Thowns can also score critical hits.

    So a build that would be very cool to try is wielding 2 times Stark Fist of Removal (+200% critical damage on both) and otherwise gear for the maximum possible +crit chance and +crit damage. Stat points as much in Defense as possible (for the 50% bonus to Aura of Thorns damage) and the damage should be pretty decent (600-3000 on crits around level 40 should be easilly possible). The numbers may not be too impressive, but let's not forget it's unresisted damage that gets applied every second or two in a reasonable area with no action taken by the player.

    ...ok, the build may be a bit boring to play if no active skills are taken ;)
  • That's actually an interesting sounding build. And there's no reason why the player should sit back and do nothing... since you'll be using normal attacks, that means you can benefit from life and mana leech. I played through the game once on VH with a 100% defensive destroyer, using good weapons with tons of leech, and while it was a bit slower for me to kill things, I never died once (I really should have done this with a **** character, but oh well). Now, if you were to do the same thing and pump points into Aura of Thorns instead of Entropic Aura, and give your pet Web and Frost to slow enemies down (if you're into that kind of thing), I'm sure you'd have great results.
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  • That's actually an interesting sounding build. And there's no reason why the player should sit back and do nothing... since you'll be using normal attacks, that means you can benefit from life and mana leech. I played through the game once on VH with a 100% defensive destroyer, using good weapons with tons of leech, and while it was a bit slower for me to kill things, I never died once (I really should have done this with a **** character, but oh well). Now, if you were to do the same thing and pump points into Aura of Thorns instead of Entropic Aura, and give your pet Web and Frost to slow enemies down (if you're into that kind of thing), I'm sure you'd have great results.

    Adding Spectral Echo and Chains would be obvious choices in the build (Echo benefits from crits just fine and Chains is predictable area stun...which keeps enemies in the Thorns area but without being a threat.
  • RyuukiRyuuki Posts: 277
    Alright I just completed a Destroyer in Hard mode in about 5 and a half hours >_>" but yea, I have an interesting build that maybe you guys want to try out.

    Basically, I'm adding in Doomquake along with BOTH Devastate ande Echo. Jump in, quake the noobs to death, and whack the boss with your weapons.

    Granted, I died 1-2 times from dungeon level 31-35 (I was level 29 when I killed Ordrak; go figure :/), but it's a pretty awesome combo, provided that you MUST have Frost Shield on every time you jump into the fray; the dragons + elementals might **** you if you went in w/o good defense/resistance.

    For this setup I used 2 Fastest Attack Speed sword coupled with skulls, which made my overall lifesteal about 188 per hit (that totally compensated my lack of armor; pumped too much strength).

    Any comments?
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  • thcthc Posts: 6
    Zarhrezz wrote:
    Symbol wrote:
    You can keep 3 copies of echo going at once which pumps the damage waay up. Plus echo has a good sized AoE as well. I wouldn't be surprised if a big fast 2hander with 3xecho ends up being the most damaging destroyer build.
    If you run the numbers, you'll find that the Epic Ribauldequin is the weapon of choice.

    The reason for this is the fact that it's the 0.5 speed weapon with the highest base damage. Due to this speed, each +dmg enchantment on the weapon will raise its DPS more than the same amount of +dmg on a slower weapon.

    The formula for the DPS number turns out to be the following: DPS = 1.8 * ((min dmg + max dmg)/2)/speed. So the lower the speed, the more the DPS number increases when the average damge goes up (due to +dmg enchants or socketing). Plus, you throw out your Echo's (that are purely based on the DPS number for damage) faster...3.6 time per second for a 0.5 speed weapon vs 3.0 times per second for a 0.6 speed weapon.

    If you have an Epic Ribauldequin with a total of +238 damage, it's DPS value will be 1468 and it's damage output (DPS*(hit/second)) will be 5286. When compared to an Epic Jagshard Bow with +238 damage, we see that the DPS value will be 1761 and it's damage output 5284...yay for the Ribauldequin. With increasing +damage over +238, this gap will only become bigger.

    I'm starting to believe more and more that Spectral Echo is in fact the highest damage power in the game. You stack 3 times 94% of the DPS value. There is no other power that deals almost 300% of the DPS number at the highest attack speed. Bottom line is that DPS increases faster (as a raw number) than average damage of the weapon (1.8/speed faster, so up to 3.6 times as fast) so any skill that is based on weapon damage instead of DPS gets left behind. And plain x-y damage skills just don't scale too well to start with. Which means Spectral Echo is made of win.

    These calculations are wrong. The reason being, you're double counting attack speed. DPS already takes into account attack speed. The "3.6" times per second is already taken into account in the DPS.

    So, Echo DPS for Ribaudequin is: (damage per hit) / (speed) * (# of echoes active) = (Auto attack DPS) * (# of echoes active) = 1468 * 3 = 4400 DPS

    That said, you're right that with enough +dmg, Ribauldequin will overtake any other weapon. It would be interesting to find out if you could actually get enough +dmg to make that feasible.
  • thc wrote:
    These calculations are wrong. The reason being, you're double counting attack speed. DPS already takes into account attack speed. The "3.6" times per second is already taken into account in the DPS.

    So, Echo DPS for Ribaudequin is: (damage per hit) / (speed) * (# of echoes active) = (Auto attack DPS) * (# of echoes active) = 1468 * 3 = 4400 DPS

    That said, you're right that with enough +dmg, Ribauldequin will overtake any other weapon. It would be interesting to find out if you could actually get enough +dmg to make that feasible.

    Thing is, attack speed indeed figures in twice. Echo simply does a % of a certain magic number (called "DPS" and displayed on your item in the game) each time you attack. Speed determines how often you attack.

    Now this magic number called "DPS"...how is it calculated? Well, it turns out it depends on average damage of the weapon and the speed of the weapon.

    This is why the Ribauldequin is the top choice; it has the lowest possible speed number and since the formula for the total damage inflected by Echo per second is a function that looks like (static factors) * (average damage of the weapon)/(speed*speed).
  • I saw something on youtube :D

    Instead of web for the pet, it has 2 different kinds of frost, i think its level 5 and 6 8-)

    I'll just try it :D
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    DenoumenT wrote:
    I saw something on youtube :D

    Instead of web for the pet, it has 2 different kinds of frost, i think its level 5 and 6 8-)

    I'll just try it :D

    I've read peoples comments on this before. And I ALWAYS put one Frost on my pet. Frost is very effective for the pet. Long ranged, wide area, cheap in mana, pretty short cooldown, and serves as an early warning system when the pet decides to cast it towards an off-screen enemy. Double Frost should be very effective for the pet; it doesn't completely stop enemies, but it does not require the precision and frequent repeat that Web does, which the pet AI can't handle.

    dreamrider
  • zekromzekrom Posts: 114
    Zarhrezz wrote:
    thc wrote:
    These calculations are wrong. The reason being, you're double counting attack speed. DPS already takes into account attack speed. The "3.6" times per second is already taken into account in the DPS.

    So, Echo DPS for Ribaudequin is: (damage per hit) / (speed) * (# of echoes active) = (Auto attack DPS) * (# of echoes active) = 1468 * 3 = 4400 DPS

    That said, you're right that with enough +dmg, Ribauldequin will overtake any other weapon. It would be interesting to find out if you could actually get enough +dmg to make that feasible.

    Thing is, attack speed indeed figures in twice. Echo simply does a % of a certain magic number (called "DPS" and displayed on your item in the game) each time you attack. Speed determines how often you attack.

    Now this magic number called "DPS"...how is it calculated? Well, it turns out it depends on average damage of the weapon and the speed of the weapon.

    This is why the Ribauldequin is the top choice; it has the lowest possible speed number and since the formula for the total damage inflected by Echo per second is a function that looks like (static factors) * (average damage of the weapon)/(speed*speed).
    whoa!!! i dint know that people figured this out in 2010. these guys are good..
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    They made one mistake. As you well know, DPS isn't figured from the 'average damage'; it appears to be figured from the peak damage.

    dreamrider
  • At level 80/55 in VC/HC mode on my 2 hander Destroyer and Devastate is at 1 point and only used to move me around the battlefield(with 10 defensive lvl 6 haste it works quite well) Echo works FAR better. It keeps you stationary, you get the leeches which can be higher than 1K hp per swing and my DPS is far higher with full speed swing vs devastate. I use 10/10 Doomquake(which i find far more useful and if you get right up next to a boss can kill them in one cast with multiple fissures hitting...and clears a room far better to) and 10/10 echo. DevastaWhat?
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