Large number of monsters vs large variation

cyberdaemoncyberdaemon Posts: 25
edited August 2010 in TL2 General Discussions
Let me introduce you 2 opposite ideas.Developers have limited resources, so lets say only 1 of these ideas would ever be developed.

One idea is the old standard - add very large number of different monsters.These monster types change troughout the episodes.But the negative side is, that every individual looks excactly the same as any other.So one goblin warrior would look just like all the other goblin warriors.You do get a lot of monster.

Second idea is, that you add far less monsters.Maybe even like 10x less monsters.But instead of every individual looking the same, they all are put together from large variety of different elements.Such as like 10 heads, 10 helmets, 10 armor plates, 10 scimitars, 10 bows and so on.Every item and piece has like 10 variations.And in addition, you can divide the same goblins by different skin colors and different clans.You can also have a snow, desert and jungle goblins as well.So a millions of possible variations.But in general, there are like few different monster "species".
In addition, the archer type of monsters might have something unique.Like only lighter armor and no shields.

I would prefer the second idea - less monster, but monsters don't all look the same.And more goblins/trolls than anything else please ;)

Comments

  • Let me introduce you 2 opposite ideas.Developers have limited resources, so lets say only 1 of these ideas would ever be developed.

    One idea is the old standard - add very large number of different monsters.These monster types change troughout the episodes.But the negative side is, that every individual looks excactly the same as any other.So one goblin warrior would look just like all the other goblin warriors.You do get a lot of monster.

    Second idea is, that you add far less monsters.Maybe even like 10x less monsters.But instead of every individual looking the same, they all are put together from large variety of different elements.Such as like 10 heads, 10 helmets, 10 armor plates, 10 scimitars, 10 bows and so on.Every item and piece has like 10 variations.And in addition, you can divide the same goblins by different skin colors and different clans.You can also have a snow, desert and jungle goblins as well.So a millions of possible variations.But in general, there are like few different monster "species".

    I would prefer the second idea - less monster, but monsters don't all look the same.And more goblins/trolls than anything else please ;)

    Having loads of monsters on screen is part of what makes action RPGs great. 1 vs 20? No problem. They shall all drowned in lakes of blood.
  • HeroHero Posts: 226
    I think he's just talking about the models, not actual numbers of mobs. So instead of 20 skeletons that all look the same running at you, its x of this type, x of this type, x holding this weapon and x amount look like this... As much as I'd like to see it, it's too hard for a small studio like this to do. They can't really have a huge variety... In Torchlight if I remember they did change up the weapons that certain mobs would hold so it did look somewhat varied..
  • azunakiazunaki Posts: 10
    even if it was just 2-3 variations it would be rather nice. even if it was texture changes i would be happy with it. some variation is always a good thing. although i would much rather have large numbers of monsters with a couple different textures.
  • wolfmanewolfmane Posts: 1,997
    I'm still looking to see mobs that 'do things' or dynamically change during the game. So you have a bunch of little monsters that explode and summon a large monster, or large monsters that disassemble into smaller ones, for example.

    Also different mob types that work in coordination with each other to overcome inherent weaknesses. Like mobs that use a lock down to prevent you from getting to the squishy caster mobs in the back.
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  • cybrimcybrim Posts: 1,107
    D2 was good enough for most of us... and it was just the same old designs for monsters and some only had different colors. Besides this is far easier to process than a load of widely different creatures all at once. So how they look doesn't bother me as much as loading time... and glitchiness. well that is just my opinion.
    I am just trying to be fair, if what I say hurts you, you probably need to seriously evaluate what I said, break it down and realize I am not trying to insult you, Just explain things you probably didn't realize.
  • It's always cool when they have a few different pieces of equipment running at you.

    Skeletons A and B charge you with a sword, Skeleton C with a Mace and Shield, and Skeletons D, E, and F try to chop you up with various axes.



    That said, it's still better to have different MONSTERS than different prop-sets of a small set of existing monsters. Because you can do more with new monsters than just the mostly-cosmetic prop appearance of the ones you've got. Such as new skills.
  • AttackGorillaAttackGorilla Posts: 1,656
    While these variations would be pretty simple to code (note size random variance is already coded in TL1 as is weapon, it just isn't widely taken advantage of).
    I too would like to see color variance added to TL2 (as well as model variance through vertex weight variation), the only problem I see would be the amount of data required to transmit for all these variations. I guess if the file size for these variations could be made small enough for each level or upon spawning monsters without much lag then there wouldn't be an issue. Either that or each person sees a different monster variation on screen, which doesn't work to well if weapon stats are different.
    I number of monster skins will be increased by the mod community though.
    (I for one love redoing their monster skins and AI/stats http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10076)
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  • Player model changes pretty dynamically.Any item or weapon you carry, changes your model looks as well.I'd rather have a lot less monster "species", but each having a large variability.The body armor types can be just visual, but it can also affect the stats.If anyone has seen, how they made the orc armies in Lotr movies, then you know how they combined many different elements together.So computer could potentially generate million different orcs and none look excactly the same.

    Talking about studio not having enough resources, i already suggested to cut the number of different monster types.Not number of monsters on screen, but what kind of enemies you are facing.Some monsters look too abstract to fit into game for me anyway.Can't wait for War in the North, they are only gonna have like orcs, trolls and spiders and thats like it... :D They probably will have this variation in.
  • TanukiTanuki Posts: 2,205
    smarter monsters would be a better expense than more dumb monsters, I'd rater see better AI than appearance variation. it's nice and all that when the gibbelings scatter every time one of them dies but you would think that they would at least be smart enough to turn around and go berserk whenever you started waking on the shaman that resurrects them when they die.
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  • AttackGorillaAttackGorilla Posts: 1,656
    I was thinking of this AI for enemies where they would all distance themselves from you and a few of them would try to stun or grapple you, then once they successfully stunned you they would all charge.
    Or what about an enemy pack that worked collectively to form a shield barricade to try and stop you from getting at their long range ballistics attacker....
  • wolfmanewolfmane Posts: 1,997
    For me smarter monster AI would beat having to fight the rainbow coalition of the undead for 10 levels straight.
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  • enemantikenemantik Posts: 492
    wolfmane wrote:
    For me smarter monster AI would beat having to fight the rainbow coalition of the undead for 10 levels straight.

    Even though I personally pay a lot of attention (perhaps too much) to visuals, like character cosmetics or the overall look of the game, I must agree with that.
  • smarter AI would roxors....I wish they would make it moddable because developing better AI takes time...and modders have seas of time :mrgreen:
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