TL2 DRM

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  • JordiJordi Posts: 21
    Zidders wrote:
    The boxed edition will have the same DRM the digital version has. You'll have a limited number of activations and you'll need to tie your copy to your Runic Games account if you want to play online multiplayer (that doesn't count for LAN, however).That being said, Runic is really good about resetting activations if you run out.
    Thank you Zidders.
    My question then would be: how many activations? I have read another person in this thread saying he never ran out of activations ( first TL ) even after installing it many times, so it seems a non-issue, but i would like to know.
    I'm spanish, and here the boxed TL1 that i bought was published by Jowood. I never saw anything about it having limited activations, just "online activation", but even then, the game never did ask me for activation. :?: I wonder if it was any different here in Europe.
  • ArkhamArkham Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭
    TL1's digital version (well, Runic's digital version at least, not sure about the others) came with 10 activations. You could also uninstall the game and reinstall it to the same hard drive/OS, and it wouldn't take up one of the activations (presumably the serial number/activation data is left after uninstall).
    The boxed version didn't have any DRM whatsoever, online activation or otherwise, as far as I know.
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  • ShiaikaShiaika Posts: 297
    Pattoe wrote:
    *interesting stuff*
    O_o

    There is people who pirates because they can, people who pirates because of very specific circumstances and people that doesn't pirate.

    Although there is no real justification to pirate, it happens:
    -DRM nightmares (Starforce!!) make some people resort to it (to the point of a few buying the game to support the developer but playing a pirated copy!) but if the digital version of TL2 is like TL's, that is the less "evil" of all of them and people should be happy. Meanwhile, I must suffer the total retardiness of D3's "forced online single player that can meet quees to log into the server, lag or being disconnected at any moment by a thousand different reasons" (and I don't even want the Auction House!!!).
    -Money? Lamest excuse ever. People pirates games of 5€ so excuse me if I **** at the excuse of not having money or not wanting to pay X. Save for the game, wait for it to be cheaper (it always happens), ask someone to give it as present for you or simply don't play it. No one will die for not being able to play a game, which happens to be a luxury product and not something like food. Quite sure that in Maxwell's pyramid, games are not the ones at the bottom!!!

    DRM is not needed because it's a fact that piracy'll happen and the only ones suffering the DRM are paying customers. Not that suits care. There are companies that actually make money with their DRMless (or DRM like digital non Steam TL's) and cheap games. As time is money, not a second should be wasted in people that won't pay for the game (no matter the reason) and every nanosecond should be devoted to give people many reasons to actually want to buy your game (and enjoy it).

    Good products, fair price* and nice customer treatment will always work better than any software scheme.

    * if the game is actually good and has lots and lots of stuff on it, it would still be fair if it costed some more money. Unfortunately, these days you pay the same for big publishers' good games and their **** games. And sometimes you cannot know which is which until it's too late.
    Meanwhile, in a parallel universe...
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  • BooBoo Posts: 38
    Arlian wrote:
    Microsoft Windows (3.5, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, XP, Vista, 7) requires an activation every time you install on a new computer.

    If the cd-key has been used too many times (ie. more than once), you have to call a number so that some guy that doesn't speak English can tell you the new activation number. This is not even a method to protect assets. It's just a point of tedium as the requirement for obtaining a cd-key isn't even reliant on owning a physical copy but basic social engineering in the form of half-truth.

    "Hi, I obtained a copy of Windows 2000 and my cd-key isn't working", "Oh, terriby sory, let me genrayt nu numba for u, yo nu numba is 85SCZ3-", "hold up, is that C then Z or is it Z then C?", "C then Z-", "... what?", "C as in chahli and Z as in ZEEtah.", "You mean Zeta?", "yes"...
    We have said before and will continue to say that if we for some reason vanish or become unable to operate the DRM activation process, we will patch it out. :)

    Windows 2000 and earlier does not require any form of activation. However, the fact that any Windows requires activation is still wrong.

    In any case, activation is........ an issue, for me. It always has been and always will be, regardless of the product. So, the first thing, is that TL2 *will* be on any given **** site within days / hours of release, regardless of activation / Steam or not. It simply doesn't matter nor bother the pirates whether TL2 has any DRM, the fact is that it *will* be on the torrents very quickly, like just about every other game, some of which also have activation or Steam protection. At the end of the day, those who want to pirate TL2, will. Those who buy TL2 get stung with nasty DRM.

    Yes, there is a lot more nasty DRM out there, but all DRM, especially those that somehow limit you or can take away your paid product, is nasty. TL2 limits you; me in particular. So, I like to be able to install TL2 in Linux. Yes there are instructions already but I'd be applying my own tuning and tweaks. This will require some testing, each test usually it's own install under Linux, each install an activation. Regardless, of whether TL2 is supported in Linux / DOS / whatever or not, it is MY right to attempt such install, should I wish. I certainly wouldn't ask Runic for support, nor do I expect it.

    However, I cannot attempt such a trial, getting TL2 to run in Linux, because I would not want to run my activations out. Two activations are already gone, and I haven't even got it yet. One for (a) Windows on this system, and one for (a) Windows on my new system that I am building very soon.Yes, I can "ask" for more activations, but there are issues with this too. One, I should not have to. I paid for the product and it won't be going on any other machine (physical computer) other than this one now, and my new one. Nor will it be played by anyone else but me.

    Two, Linux aside, I also do a lot of config testing, performance testing, issue isolation testing and many other tests (all on the same physical machine), which involves clean installs of Windows (MS activation is no issue in my setup, still wrong tho). However, I cannot do this, certainly not easy, with TL2 activation. For instance, I want to do some TL2 performance testing and other TL2 testing on different Windows' versions, but cannot since it will just blow through activations. Testing aside, there's the fact that I simply like to mulitboot for many reasons, and don't really have a "main install". TL2 would be installed on a number of different OS / versions - again all on the same physical computer, but activations just destroys this.

    I can't "backup" my Windows installs / image them or whatever, because that would defeat the purpose of doing tests / the multiboot setup I have etc, in the fist place. Apart from the fact that they are all different versions and configs anyways. I understand that I am the exception, with regards to multiple OS installs, but that doesn't make it right that *I* should be denied my right of freely installing TL2 - a product I will pay for, as much as I want on the same physical computer. Being the only user of my machine (all OS), and the TL2 game, I do not see an issue. The fact is, every user is different with different circumstances, and as long as that the user is otherwise abiding by the EULA - only installed on one physical machine etc, there should be no issue with unlimited installs - *without* asking for permission, on that one physical machine. just about every other game / app allows it. Activations is a minority, for the most part - there is a lot of it, but that doesn't make it a majority.

    Leads me to: TL2 DRM can deny me of something I paid for - it can take away my paid product. I have seen it quoted on this very forum by Runic staff, that if... "you install 10 times within the span of a week", (essentially) don't ask for anymore activations. By this post (all of it), I mean absolutely no offense to anyone, TL2 is a fantastic game and Runic a brilliant company. The community is awesome. However, despite the fact that TL2 is Runic's IP, creation and code, Runic doesn't (shouldn't) get to decide how often I or anyone else installs my game that *I* / *they* paid for, again, provided it's all on the one physical machine.

    Unless Runic has an actual problem with the amount of times TL2 is installed on one physical computer - in that the activation is there to prevent many installs on the SAME computer, in which case I'll have nothing more to do with TL2, then nobody gets to depict how often one can install TL2 (or any game, really) on the same computer. In Runic's defense, activation would be there to (attempt) to prevent installs on multiple computers, sharing it around etc. Unfortunately as I said before, TL2 *will* be on any given **** site very quickly after release, despite DRM.

    The fact is, Runic (and whomever uses activation in their products) is limiting our installs, and to get more, you have to email them and 'ask", which, whilst they are nice people, is totally up to their discretion. This effectively takes away your paid product, and does if they say no - 10 installs in a week, for example, whilst Runic may not accept that, it really is the user's choice. However, 10 installs on different physical computers, yes fine... deny them. That's a clear violation of the EULA (in theory) and activation has actually worked.

    However, once again, the fact I would have to email Runic and 'ask' for, what is essentially, access to my my paid product, despite me not having done any wrong doing, is a clear violation of *my* rights as a consumer. If I wish to install TL2 on the same physical computer 10 times (or more) within a week, that's MY choice, MY right, and again, no offense but Runic doesn't get to depict otherwise, once again, provided I am not violating the EULA - as in installing TL2 on multiple physical computers.

    Now, Boo, why don't you just get Steam, I hear you ask. Many reasons for this, but firstly, because it too would end up denying me of my right to play the game, simply by design. I will be on narrowband soon (dialup), and I shaln't even attempt Steam on dialup. Sure not Runic's fault per se, but if the website version had no such aforementioned limitations, then there'd be no issue. The fact is, even the... "offline mode" of Steam is extremely painful on dialup, Steam itself as a program simply isn't designed to last (too long) without some form of good Internet connection.

    Steam is a pain to juggle around different OS' on dialup. It's a pain on one OS on dialup. It's just a mess in general, even a quick Google will show users of Steam who attempt the platform on dialup, but often spend hours just trying to sign in, update when required, download their files and even trying to get the "offline mode" working smooth in general is a huge pain.

    Dialup problems aside, there is the fact that I simply don't like Steam and have other issues with it. No, this isn't Runic's fault, with regards to Steam, but it isn't mine either. The fact is it's the way it's designed, it has many an issue, most of which I shall omit from this post as it's really getting off-topic(ish). And as a final word on the Steam matter, Steam itself is a limitations DRM - they will often take away your account / game(s) you paid for (products on), should they have reason to, even if *you* yourself did nothing wrong. I have seen this many a time. Google it. It's even in their TOS.

    Boxed copy? Nope. Probably not coming to my region. Ordering it isn't really an option for me either.

    So, many an OS aside, even on just *one* single OS, activation should not be an issue. But it is - Runic is limiting how many times I or others can install it - even on one single OS, and we have to 'ask' for more, which is entirely up to their discretion. Remember - just because *you* may think that... "10 activations in the span of a week" (even on the same OS) is too much, it's really not up to you or Runic to depict how one uses *their* paid for computer or *their* paid for TL2, nor do you get to judge. Everyone does have different circumstances.

    Don't play the game then? But that's just it! I *want* to play TL2! I *want* to give Runic money! I think TL2 fantastic!! However, Runic is making it incredibly hard for me to do so. Steam is not an option for me. Boxed copy is not an option for me. Website version has too much of a limitation, not only in general, but to fit in my PC and gameplay usage. Does Runic *honestly* expect or want me to email them every week or so, asking and begging for more activations? Because despite the fact that I would have only ever installed TL2 on this physical computer, and my new physical computer (when built), I would have run out of activations quite a bit, simple due to my usage pattern. I would have done no wrong - no sharing of TL2 what so ever, no multiple computers (other than my own two, when second one is built and replaces this one), not even another user playing it. Yet I would be denied of *my* right to use *my* computer the way I want and play the game *I* paid for.

    What's the alternative? Pirate it? How ironic - the very methods to keep one from pirating the game will actually force me to pirate the game, if I wish to play without issue! No, I don't wish to and will not pirate TL2. No idea on how I will end up playing TL2. There is no option that will work for me. Even some way of keep TL2 activated between multiple OS' would suffice. It's either that or Runic can literally expect emails from me once a week or so, begging for more activations.
  • JordiJordi Posts: 21
    Arkham wrote:
    TL1's digital version (well, Runic's digital version at least, not sure about the others) came with 10 activations. You could also uninstall the game and reinstall it to the same hard drive/OS, and it wouldn't take up one of the activations (presumably the serial number/activation data is left after uninstall).
    The boxed version didn't have any DRM whatsoever, online activation or otherwise, as far as I know.
    Thanks, that explains it. :)
    I hope Runic will decide to do the same with TL2.
  • ShiaikaShiaika Posts: 297
    Boo wrote:
    Excuses
    No one forces you to pirate a game. You choose to pirate.

    Just in case you forgot, you only buy a license. Which can be used 10 times but can be reset by e-mailing them. You are still allowed to burn your computer if you wish but if you cannot play by the rules of the license, don't play.
    Meanwhile, in a parallel universe...
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  • CanayoyoCanayoyo Posts: 23
    Chthon wrote:
    Hmmm... You think I should add that to the list of unacceptably invasive DRM methods?
    yes
  • CornflakeCornflake Posts: 180
    Shiaika wrote:
    Boo wrote:
    Excuses
    No one forces you to pirate a game. You choose to pirate.

    Just in case you forgot, you only buy a license. Which can be used 10 times but can be reset by e-mailing them. You are still allowed to burn your computer if you wish but if you cannot play by the rules of the license, don't play.

    i think the simple fact is that drm does not prevent piracy. i am 100% fine with my account being linked to my game, so that no one else can use my copy for online play. i certainly do not want to need to validate my copy with an internet connection when i install it though, since i don't always have a connection.
  • ArlianArlian Posts: 2,865
    A special thought ran across my head. There is no law against having a back-up of an existing product. RIAA tried to pass that and it got laughed out of court. This one should solve ALL of the problems.

    Here's the nitty-gritty, you are still supporting TL2 by purchasing the title, you install and use the provided key. You create an account through secure.runicgames.com and link your account code to it. This allows you online play with your friends and shows genuine support of the company. YOU have ACTIVATED the game, now what?

    Afterwards, you use the "pirate" copy on all subsequent copies and bypass the activation altogether. You want to play online?! Go for it! You already have the account to login through the servers.

    This is what I call "using the bad for the good" in this case, you are using the pirated copy as a back-up to the legal copy. Is Runic happy? Yes. Are you happy? Yes.

    Win-win. Let's all go home.
    Making a to-do list is on my to-do list.
  • agent154agent154 Posts: 6
    edited May 2012
    Nobody is arguing the psychology behind wanting DRM. I can fully understand why an artist would possibly WANT DRM. But the fact of the matter is, that no matter how strong it is, it will be broken. WoW's service is 100% online only with no concept of "single player"... yet somebody managed to reverse engineer the protocol and design their own private servers. Now people can download full copies of the game directly from Blizzard, which are meant for trial accounts, and connect to private servers without paying Blizzard a red cent. Despite this, Blizzard still (arguably) deserves money for the game. Their online service is light years beyond the quality of free-to-play servers. The free servers are glitchy at best, and quite often lack certain critical features/behavior. It's a poor replacement for the online service, and (most) paying customers realize this. That is why they keep paying despite knowing that there are free servers out there.

    In my not-so-professional opinion, the only acceptable form of DRM is how it was dealt with only a few years back: CD or Product Key that you use to install the game. That product key is then tied to an online service (say, in blizzard's case: Battle.net). Aside from that, the person should have access to LAN play and/or direct connection to another person, a la TCP/IP or UDP. That way, the develloper can concentrate on creating an awesome online service to complement the legitimate purchases of the game, and exclude those people who pirate. Sure, the pirates can still play multiplayer, but it'll be bland compared to whatever bonuses the developer provides via their portal. That's how it worked for Starcraft: Brood War, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 2 and 3. That's how it worked for Half-Life when it was first released, before Steam was created. Though they weren't forcefully locked to an account, only one person with a valid key could be on at the same time.

    But regardless, I think I can live with TL2's single online activation for installing the game. It's not so bad that I'll completely refuse... but it is my hope that they decide to take it out some day, because clearly it's only going to inconvenience legitimate customers. Creative people who think they need DRM should really be taught that regardless of how they try to keep people from illegally attaining a copy of their product, their efforts will only burden and punish paying customers and otherwise loyal fans.
  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭
    Agent, I am with you 100%
    ItfooQF.png
  • PattoePattoe Posts: 67
    People need to stop discounting why people pirate. Changing a quote to "excuses" and then saying 'Oh yeah, that's just excuses you dirty stinking pirate' doesn't actually help anything. Like it or not, whether you agree with the points or disagree with them, whether you pirate or you don't, the reasons people try to justify piracy with are reasons none-the-less and there's no smoke without fire. Discounting something as excuses and then disrespecting the person isn't going to stop piracy, if a company did that, it's more likely to encourage piracy.

    I know it feels good to get on your high-horse and say "I've never pirated so im better than everyone else, and everyone who pirates is just morally corrupt" but it's just not true, I've got many friends who pirate and they are the nicest people ever, They just don't think that piracy is much of a big issue, there are reasons why people pirate, it ranges from "Because I can and It's free" to "I severely disagree with the business practices in place so it's a protest". Both of those reasons and all the other reasons for piracy can be argued against, I'm completely aware of that. Every reason can be said to be wrong and can be supported by very valid points... but that doesn't stop the people who pirate still believing in those reasons.

    To educate people properly and make them understand the consequences of piracy, you need to be a lot more respectful to somebody, less patronising and condescending. These people are generally very good people, and I'm sure if treated with politeness and respect, they will listen. I know I've gotten my friends to pay for games that they pirate just by explaining to them that even a single sale can help out a developer a lot.
  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭
    Who's being disrespectful or patronizing? i'm not. ****, I stole Torchlight when it first came out, as well as Borderlands, and many other games. I went back and paid for them later (and in the case of Runic, I apologized) that doesn't change what I did, so i'm the last person to get on my high horse. All I expect is that people realize that it's theft, it's not a protest, so call it what it is and own up to being a theif. Once people realize that that's what they're doing, they're more likely to realize that it causes developers to fear that they won't be compensated for their work and it allows people who want to justify draconian laws that justification.

    I agree that we shouldn't judge or look down on people who do it, but all too often when you try to explain to people who download game why they shouldn't, some of them go immediately on the defenseive and then next thing you know, the conversation loses focus. It almost always ends up being the few 'people who don't respect content creators' vs the few 'people who enjoy feeling morally superior to others'. They might be a small part of the problem (corporations are the largest part of the problem but they're among the loudest.
    ItfooQF.png
  • ShiaikaShiaika Posts: 297
    Pattoe wrote:
    People need to stop discounting why people pirate. Changing a quote to "excuses" and then saying 'Oh yeah, that's just excuses you dirty stinking pirate' doesn't actually help anything. Like it or not, whether you agree with the points or disagree with them, whether you pirate or you don't, the reasons people try to justify piracy with are reasons none-the-less and there's no smoke without fire. Discounting something as excuses and then disrespecting the person isn't going to stop piracy, if a company did that, it's more likely to encourage piracy.

    I know it feels good to get on your high-horse and say "I've never pirated so im better than everyone else, and everyone who pirates is just morally corrupt" but it's just not true, I've got many friends who pirate and they are the nicest people ever, They just don't think that piracy is much of a big issue, there are reasons why people pirate, it ranges from "Because I can and It's free" to "I severely disagree with the business practices in place so it's a protest". Both of those reasons and all the other reasons for piracy can be argued against, I'm completely aware of that. Every reason can be said to be wrong and can be supported by very valid points... but that doesn't stop the people who pirate still believing in those reasons.

    To educate people properly and make them understand the consequences of piracy, you need to be a lot more respectful to somebody, less patronising and condescending. These people are generally very good people, and I'm sure if treated with politeness and respect, they will listen. I know I've gotten my friends to pay for games that they pirate just by explaining to them that even a single sale can help out a developer a lot.
    Educate people that doesn't want to be educated? In the internet? You think I'm retarded or what? Excuses are excuses. Those who want to be educated don't sit down and wait for knowledge to come to them.
    Meanwhile, in a parallel universe...
    torchlight2fighter.png
  • drachirdrachir Posts: 62
    One off on-line product activation linked to a personal account somewhere and some sort of account verification when you go on-line to play are probably enough.

    Lost your Activation key? Surely you can remember your email account...or Name?

    If you have to be on-line to carry out this process then i really can't see anyone having a legitimate issue in this day and age.

    If it protects the developers from casual piracy then it's a good thing IMHO

    Blizzard went OTT with the single-player on-line always requirement, but SP is not what they or their target customers are really interested in for Diablo 3.

    You have to ask yourself how many people who did pirate a game would actualy have bought it if that was the only option.

    *I want that..it's £60*....*Going to buy it?*....*No*....*Can i Pirate it?*....*No*....*End*

    Either way the developer gets no money.
    'Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little' - Epicurus c260BC
  • ArlianArlian Posts: 2,865
    I'd honestly rather everything be handled through email and password and have accounts linked through that than to have per-account activation.

    You want to play the game? Create a free account (username/email and password) and when the account is created, register your code onto your account. This creates a one-time activation which can be reapplied simply by logging into the server to revalidate. In this case, revalidate simply means: requesting computer has credentials, passing unlock, boom, done.

    The problem still exists with: "What if the servers are down" in which case, obtaining a bootleg copy is still the easy and legal alternative. You already own a copy of the game. You already paid your hard-earned green (or whatever color you use in your respective country). Obtaining a back-up clone which bypasses the activation is still a viable alternative so long as you own the rights to play the product. (have the product key, physical media, etc).
    Making a to-do list is on my to-do list.
  • PattoePattoe Posts: 67
    Shiaika wrote:
    Educate people that doesn't want to be educated? In the internet? You think I'm retarded or what? Excuses are excuses. Those who want to be educated don't sit down and wait for knowledge to come to them.

    Sure there are some people, like you, who won't listen to others. But there are many open minded people who will listen. Probably not to me unless they are my personal friends, but to known and reputable authorities of the internet, such as Youtube personalities, people do listen to them.
  • I want to jump in here to clarify some things.

    1 - We have, to date, NEVER turned down a single request for additional activations on Torchlight. It is actually rare for someone to consume TEN activations over a multi year period. I think we have had maybe 2-3 dozen?

    2 - If you ask us for activation increases - We have access to the activation logs - if we see you requesting large volumes of activations from different regions of the world and different computers within a short time, We will be concerned and will ask you about it. We will want to know what is going on in that kind of sketchy situation (which, you must admit, would be really rare unless you managed to be plane hopping around the world and re-installing the game on a new computer at every airport and hotel along the way - at which point we will ask why, the story alone would be worth hearing :-P ).

    3 - If you ask us for activation increases and we see you have activated a bunch from your same computer or IP address over a short period of time, we will know that. I want to stress this in a way only Dr. Seuss can:
    We do not care if you install it on all the computers in your house. We do not care if you use your mouse. You can try to install on WINE. If it works, that's mighty fine! You can play it on your LAN, you can play it on the "can" (although that might be difficult). We will up your activations, Sam-I-Am.

    4 - The retail "box" version of Torchlight 1 had zero DRM. This goes for both Encore and JoWood versions.

    5 - The retail "box" plans for Torchlight II are not yet public where I can go into details on them right now, we will let you know when additional information is available.

    6 - With the Torchlight II Runic digital version the DRM will be the same as we had on Torchlight 1 - that is, a key with a generous number of activations by default (we had ten activations for Torchlight 1, the number for Torchlight II is not finalized yet).

    7 - The plan is to have the Torchlight II Runic version be an "unlockable" demo like Torchlight 1. This means you can download, install and play without ever purchasing a key, the game just has some restrictions. We have not stated what these are yet, but for example you cannot play Internet Multiplayer (you need a Runic Account linked to a key for that) and there will be a content lock in place to prevent you from playing the entire game (like with the Steam Torchlight 1 demo ending on floor 5). If you like it, you can click "buy now" from the launcher and get a key, put it in and never get bothered again. No re-downloading. No re-installing. Just unlock and get back to the loot.

    8 - With that DRM you will only need to activate ONCE on a computer, it will never dial home again (normal caveats about re-activating after reformatting your computer apply). There are no rootkits. There are no custom driver ****. There is nothing that accesses or interferes with ANYTHING ELSE on your computer. PERIOD.

    9 - With ALL VERSIONS of Torchlight II you will have a key that will link to your Runic Account for INTERNET multiplayer. For the Runic digital version it will be the same key that you use for your DRM. Perfect World digital version is identical to Runic's digital version. Steam players will get a key when the game is released that can be registered to their Runic Account. Once your key is linked to your account this also provides a handy way to get your key back if you lose it later.

    10 - Your Runic Account is what you will log into for INTERNET multiplayer. LAN multiplayer has NO LOGINS or any other requirement. You just start a game and start playing.

    11 - As we have stated before. In the extremely unlikely event that something happens and we have to stop supporting our product. We WILL release a patch that will remove ANY activation requirements at all. I know some of you will see this as an empty promise and there is not really anything I can say that will convince you otherwise. I can only say that has been our statement from the beginning and will not change.
    Runic Games Webmaster
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  • DorfDorf Posts: 298
    I want to jump in here to clarify some things.

    1 - We have, to date, NEVER turned down a single request for additional activations on Torchlight. It is actually rare for someone to consume TEN activations over a multi year period. I think we have had maybe 2-3 dozen?

    2 - If you ask us for activation increases - We have access to the activation logs - if we see you requesting large volumes of activations from different regions of the world and different computers within a short time, We will be concerned and will ask you about it. We will want to know what is going on in that kind of sketchy situation (which, you must admit, would be really rare unless you managed to be plane hopping around the world and re-installing the game on a new computer at every airport and hotel along the way - at which point we will ask why, the story alone would be worth hearing :-P ).

    3 - If you ask us for activation increases and we see you have activated a bunch from your same computer or IP address over a short period of time, we will know that. I want to stress this in a way only Dr. Seuss can:
    We do not care if you install it on all the computers in your house. We do not care if you use your mouse. You can try to install on WINE. If it works, that's mighty fine! You can play it on your LAN, you can play it on the "can" (although that might be difficult). We will up your activations, Sam-I-Am.

    4 - The retail "box" version of Torchlight 1 had zero DRM. This goes for both Encore and JoWood versions.

    5 - The retail "box" plans for Torchlight II are not yet public where I can go into details on them right now, we will let you know when additional information is available.

    6 - With the Torchlight II Runic digital version the DRM will be the same as we had on Torchlight 1 - that is, a key with a generous number of activations by default (we had ten activations for Torchlight 1, the number for Torchlight II is not finalized yet).

    7 - The plan is to have the Torchlight II Runic version be an "unlockable" demo like Torchlight 1. This means you can download, install and play without ever purchasing a key, the game just has some restrictions. We have not stated what these are yet, but for example you cannot play Internet Multiplayer (you need a Runic Account linked to a key for that) and there will be a content lock in place to prevent you from playing the entire game (like with the Steam Torchlight 1 demo ending on floor 5). If you like it, you can click "buy now" from the launcher and get a key, put it in and never get bothered again. No re-downloading. No re-installing. Just unlock and get back to the loot.

    8 - With that DRM you will only need to activate ONCE on a computer, it will never dial home again (normal caveats about re-activating after reformatting your computer apply). There are no rootkits. There are no custom driver ****. There is nothing that accesses or interferes with ANYTHING ELSE on your computer. PERIOD.

    9 - With ALL VERSIONS of Torchlight II you will have a key that will link to your Runic Account for INTERNET multiplayer. For the Runic digital version it will be the same key that you use for your DRM. Perfect World digital version is identical to Runic's digital version. Steam players will get a key when the game is released that can be registered to their Runic Account. Once your key is linked to your account this also provides a handy way to get your key back if you lose it later.

    10 - Your Runic Account is what you will log into for INTERNET multiplayer. LAN multiplayer has NO LOGINS or any other requirement. You just start a game and start playing.

    11 - As we have stated before. In the extremely unlikely event that something happens and we have to stop supporting our product. We WILL release a patch that will remove ANY activation requirements at all. I know some of you will see this as an empty promise and there is not really anything I can say that will convince you otherwise. I can only say that has been our statement from the beginning and will not change.

    Thanks for the info. I hope people finally realize how relaxed the DRM is. Keep up with the good work
  • PattoePattoe Posts: 67
    I want to jump in here to clarify some things.

    1 - We have, to date, NEVER turned down a single request for additional activations on Torchlight. It is actually rare for someone to consume TEN activations over a multi year period. I think we have had maybe 2-3 dozen?

    2 - If you ask us for activation increases - We have access to the activation logs - if we see you requesting large volumes of activations from different regions of the world and different computers within a short time, We will be concerned and will ask you about it. We will want to know what is going on in that kind of sketchy situation (which, you must admit, would be really rare unless you managed to be plane hopping around the world and re-installing the game on a new computer at every airport and hotel along the way - at which point we will ask why, the story alone would be worth hearing :-P ).

    3 - If you ask us for activation increases and we see you have activated a bunch from your same computer or IP address over a short period of time, we will know that. I want to stress this in a way only Dr. Seuss can:
    We do not care if you install it on all the computers in your house. We do not care if you use your mouse. You can try to install on WINE. If it works, that's mighty fine! You can play it on your LAN, you can play it on the "can" (although that might be difficult). We will up your activations, Sam-I-Am.

    4 - The retail "box" version of Torchlight 1 had zero DRM. This goes for both Encore and JoWood versions.

    5 - The retail "box" plans for Torchlight II are not yet public where I can go into details on them right now, we will let you know when additional information is available.

    6 - With the Torchlight II Runic digital version the DRM will be the same as we had on Torchlight 1 - that is, a key with a generous number of activations by default (we had ten activations for Torchlight 1, the number for Torchlight II is not finalized yet).

    7 - The plan is to have the Torchlight II Runic version be an "unlockable" demo like Torchlight 1. This means you can download, install and play without ever purchasing a key, the game just has some restrictions. We have not stated what these are yet, but for example you cannot play Internet Multiplayer (you need a Runic Account linked to a key for that) and there will be a content lock in place to prevent you from playing the entire game (like with the Steam Torchlight 1 demo ending on floor 5). If you like it, you can click "buy now" from the launcher and get a key, put it in and never get bothered again. No re-downloading. No re-installing. Just unlock and get back to the loot.

    8 - With that DRM you will only need to activate ONCE on a computer, it will never dial home again (normal caveats about re-activating after reformatting your computer apply). There are no rootkits. There are no custom driver ****. There is nothing that accesses or interferes with ANYTHING ELSE on your computer. PERIOD.

    9 - With ALL VERSIONS of Torchlight II you will have a key that will link to your Runic Account for INTERNET multiplayer. For the Runic digital version it will be the same key that you use for your DRM. Perfect World digital version is identical to Runic's digital version. Steam players will get a key when the game is released that can be registered to their Runic Account. Once your key is linked to your account this also provides a handy way to get your key back if you lose it later.

    10 - Your Runic Account is what you will log into for INTERNET multiplayer. LAN multiplayer has NO LOGINS or any other requirement. You just start a game and start playing.

    11 - As we have stated before. In the extremely unlikely event that something happens and we have to stop supporting our product. We WILL release a patch that will remove ANY activation requirements at all. I know some of you will see this as an empty promise and there is not really anything I can say that will convince you otherwise. I can only say that has been our statement from the beginning and will not change.

    This kind of service and honesty is why people who usually pirate games will consider buying Torchlight 2. This is what Runic Games is doing properly, communicating with and respecting their customers and potential customers.
  • agent154agent154 Posts: 6
    JediFreeman:

    I, and likely most people here understand that. Most of us are extremely grateful that a developer has decided to go with as little DRM as your company has. I have to wonder though - Why bother with that tiny little bit of DRM at all, if you're being as liberal as you are? Clearly it'll be pointless in stopping any organized criminal pirating of your software. The best it could hope to do is stop some naive customer from sharing it with their friend. Most people know that if they WANT to get a game for free, it's a simple process to just go online and download a **** for it. I just have to stand on principal here, because I feel that all DRM is pointless and marginally harmful to the customer, regardless of how lenient it is.

    Taking from my example above: You could design your online multiplayer to be an amazing experience that would make people want to use it without doing what Blizzard is currently doing with Bnet 2.0. This way you could be 100% DRM free like they did in the old days. A simple CD Key is all that's needed to tie to online usage, and only one person may be online with that key at any time. Or you could go with a similar route to what you're doing with linked accounts for online usage. But at that point, I would only personally request that there be some way to transfer a license to somebody else's account so you could sell or give your game away.

    Other than that one small issue, I'm extremely happy to see a game developer treat its paying customers with as much respect as you guys are.
  • targrentargren Posts: 495
    edited May 2012
    Zidders wrote:
    Who's being disrespectful or patronizing? i'm not. ****, I stole Torchlight when it first came out, as well as Borderlands, and many other games. I went back and paid for them later (and in the case of Runic, I apologized) that doesn't change what I did, so i'm the last person to get on my high horse. All I expect is that people realize that it's theft, it's not a protest, so call it what it is and own up to being a theif. Once people realize that that's what they're doing, they're more likely to realize that it causes developers to fear that they won't be compensated for their work and it allows people who want to justify draconian laws that justification.

    I have to disagree with you on this one, my friend. It's not theft (if it were, the consequences would be far more sane, for starters, since we've already got laws against theft) any more than it's piracy. That's just the newest buzzword in use now to add an emotive element to the rhetoric since "piracy" lost its bite.

    Is it illegal in most jurisdictions? Absolutely. There's no room for subjectivity there, there are laws in place prohibiting it.

    Is it wrong? That's a moral judgement, with an entire continuum orthogonal to the legality (which moral judgements usually are, at least in the minds of non-loony-toons). Personally, my position on the subject in general (that I won't get into the details of. I don't really want to start a flame war) is one of "it's a wash." That said, part of the reason I support companies like Runic and CDP, both vocally and financially, is that they exist within the system WITHOUT abusing the system, and I am comfortable rewarding them for that, since it encourages them to keep doing it and, hopefully, convinces other to do the same (though some of the more behemoth companies which shall remain unnamed are clearly a lost cause).

    Is it theft? Not unless you five-finger a box off the shelf at your local $GAME_STORE.
    11 - As we have stated before. In the extremely unlikely event that something happens and we have to stop supporting our product. We WILL release a patch that will remove ANY activation requirements at all. I know some of you will see this as an empty promise and there is not really anything I can say that will convince you otherwise. I can only say that has been our statement from the beginning and will not change.

    For the record, I'd trust you guys with this promise far more readily than "those other guys" who've made similar assertions. ;)
  • BrianWBrianW Posts: 2,307 admin
    agent154 wrote:
    I have to wonder though - Why bother with that tiny little bit of DRM at all, if you're being as liberal as you are?

    We have some minimal DRM primarily so that we can provide a freely available unlockable demo that people can get online. Once they buy the game, they can continue on with their characters without being forced to reinstall. It should be noted that the original Torchlight retail boxes had zero DRM at all.
    BrianW
    Community Manager // Mr. Nice Guy

    Join us on Discord! https://discord.gg/runicgames
  • BooBoo Posts: 38
    I want to jump in here to clarify some things.

    1 - We have, to date, NEVER turned down a single request for additional activations on Torchlight. It is actually rare for someone to consume TEN activations over a multi year period. I think we have had maybe 2-3 dozen?

    2 - If you ask us for activation increases - We have access to the activation logs - if we see you requesting large volumes of activations from different regions of the world and different computers within a short time, We will be concerned and will ask you about it. We will want to know what is going on in that kind of sketchy situation (which, you must admit, would be really rare unless you managed to be plane hopping around the world and re-installing the game on a new computer at every airport and hotel along the way - at which point we will ask why, the story alone would be worth hearing :-P ).

    3 - If you ask us for activation increases and we see you have activated a bunch from your same computer or IP address over a short period of time, we will know that. I want to stress this in a way only Dr. Seuss can:
    We do not care if you install it on all the computers in your house. We do not care if you use your mouse. You can try to install on WINE. If it works, that's mighty fine! You can play it on your LAN, you can play it on the "can" (although that might be difficult). We will up your activations, Sam-I-Am.

    4 - The retail "box" version of Torchlight 1 had zero DRM. This goes for both Encore and JoWood versions.

    5 - The retail "box" plans for Torchlight II are not yet public where I can go into details on them right now, we will let you know when additional information is available.

    6 - With the Torchlight II Runic digital version the DRM will be the same as we had on Torchlight 1 - that is, a key with a generous number of activations by default (we had ten activations for Torchlight 1, the number for Torchlight II is not finalized yet).

    7 - The plan is to have the Torchlight II Runic version be an "unlockable" demo like Torchlight 1. This means you can download, install and play without ever purchasing a key, the game just has some restrictions. We have not stated what these are yet, but for example you cannot play Internet Multiplayer (you need a Runic Account linked to a key for that) and there will be a content lock in place to prevent you from playing the entire game (like with the Steam Torchlight 1 demo ending on floor 5). If you like it, you can click "buy now" from the launcher and get a key, put it in and never get bothered again. No re-downloading. No re-installing. Just unlock and get back to the loot.

    8 - With that DRM you will only need to activate ONCE on a computer, it will never dial home again (normal caveats about re-activating after reformatting your computer apply). There are no rootkits. There are no custom driver ****. There is nothing that accesses or interferes with ANYTHING ELSE on your computer. PERIOD.

    9 - With ALL VERSIONS of Torchlight II you will have a key that will link to your Runic Account for INTERNET multiplayer. For the Runic digital version it will be the same key that you use for your DRM. Perfect World digital version is identical to Runic's digital version. Steam players will get a key when the game is released that can be registered to their Runic Account. Once your key is linked to your account this also provides a handy way to get your key back if you lose it later.

    10 - Your Runic Account is what you will log into for INTERNET multiplayer. LAN multiplayer has NO LOGINS or any other requirement. You just start a game and start playing.

    11 - As we have stated before. In the extremely unlikely event that something happens and we have to stop supporting our product. We WILL release a patch that will remove ANY activation requirements at all. I know some of you will see this as an empty promise and there is not really anything I can say that will convince you otherwise. I can only say that has been our statement from the beginning and will not change.

    Mr JediFreeman, Runic and community, I do sincerely apologize for my previous lack of faith that was implied with my original post in this thread. When it comes to software activation, I have had no end of trouble despite being me honest and doing what the (other software) company asks the whole time. Never has a company, until Runic, been so lenient, understanding, and honest with their activation policy, at least none which I have dealt with. All the other companies have lied to me and the community in general, and when I have publicly spoken about it after I caught them out, I got no response. In any case, I did pre-order TL2 from PerfectWorld earlier tonight. I want to support Runic and the community of TL2, despite my (previous) issues with activations. Needless to say though, Runic has now set my mind at ease.

    So, please do accept this apology. It is sincere, and please understand that I meant no disrespect nor harm to Runic or anyone else with my previous post in this thread. Also please understand that my previous concerns on the matter where simply manifested from previous dealings with every other product that requires activation, which I have dealt with, and the lies and general 'we don't care' attitude of the other companies. Only now, with Runic, have a met a company that actually genuinely cares and has an honest activation policy.

    Once again, sorry.

    EDIT: Change 'ie Runic' to 'until Runic', it was in the wrong context the way I had it. :oops:
  • PawsPaws Posts: 1,933
    "I never lock my door when I leave because someone could smash a window. Besides, who ever tries the doorknob anyways?"

    There's a point where every company decides what's going to net them the most money: people 'standing on principle' or a basic, and generous, restriction system. I've been in that sort of discussion myself (when choosing anti-hack programs for MMOs, in this case) They're just too savvy to say to that crowd you're not worth it in literal terms.
    PAWS.png
    Reviews and Journalism, RPGamer.com
    Zidders wrote:
    Fyi. Paws isn't a madam. She's a total PIMP.
    /swag
  • TheBuzzSawTheBuzzSaw Posts: 124
    As long as the Steam version depends exclusively on Steamworks, I'm happy.

    If a DRM-free disc comes out, I will purchase that too. TL2 is worth it.
  • TheBuzzSaw wrote:
    As long as the Steam version depends exclusively on Steamworks, I'm happy.

    If a DRM-free disc comes out, I will purchase that too. TL2 is worth it.

    To follow up with Steam info, correct, the Steam version has no DRM outside of Steam itself.

    You will still need a Runic Account for Internet multiplayer, and Steam will have a key listed with your game that you will be able to retrieve from your Steam client game page at any time (once the game is launched). Once you have registered that key to your Runic Account, you never need to interact with it again.
    Runic Games Webmaster
    Forum Rules | Support Forums | E-mail Support
  • RisingsunRisingsun Posts: 181
    TheBuzzSaw wrote:
    As long as the Steam version depends exclusively on Steamworks, I'm happy.

    If a DRM-free disc comes out, I will purchase that too. TL2 is worth it.

    agreed, I'd buy a DRM free disc in a heartbeat, 2 probably. If that happens I hope is a hybrid disc that contains both the Mac and windows version.
  • elcielci Posts: 95
    Wow there is a lot of amazing info in this thread :) Thanks JediFreeman for enlightening your DRM policy :)
    BTW I've pre-ordered from steam just to get tl1 (I know, I'm being cheap) and have to ask this. (imho it is possible, but asking never hurts) Will it be possible for me to use my key in "pirated" (well it's not pirated if I bought it, right?) version of the game? I don't really want to have steam running all the time :oops:
  • PattoePattoe Posts: 67
    TheBuzzSaw wrote:
    As long as the Steam version depends exclusively on Steamworks, I'm happy.

    If a DRM-free disc comes out, I will purchase that too. TL2 is worth it.

    To follow up with Steam info, correct, the Steam version has no DRM outside of Steam itself.

    You will still need a Runic Account for Internet multiplayer, and Steam will have a key listed with your game that you will be able to retrieve from your Steam client game page at any time (once the game is launched). Once you have registered that key to your Runic Account, you never need to interact with it again.

    Will we be able to take advantage of all of Steam's advantages, such as being able to hop into the game with a friend through the steam friends list?
This discussion has been closed.