Is 2h even viable over DW?

SenjaiSenjai Posts: 44
edited August 2012 in Destroyer Discussions
^^^

I need to know or be pointed to an addon that makes it so. I play 2h warriors in most games that allow it. but the fact that a dw damage increasing skill exists without the 2h component worries me. Does DW start with a disadvantage that the passive eliminates? or is 2h just horrible period.

Cheers,

Senjai

Comments

  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭
    I've played both 2hander AND dual weild and honestly, I couldn't really tell the difference. It seemed to be more a matter of playstyle than anything. I can't speak of the numbers but I played a 2handed vanquisher vs a dual weild, both up to level 100, and the only difference I noticed between the two was that my 2handed took slightly longer to level because my gear wasnt really rigged for melee.
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  • gold163gold163 Posts: 4,852
    Dual Wield is definitely at a disadvantage that you NEED the passive the eliminate, because the way the damage works is the damage is averaged between the two weapons. So you're losing DPS if your weapons have different damage values even if they have the same DPS value, since I *believe* each weapon attacks independently, so the damage is calculated per hit. Two handed weapons, on the other hand, don't have to worry about all that ****. Still, you don't have the advantage of blocking with a shield, which you might need. In my opinion, one handed + shield is probably the strongest combo, but like Zidders said, it's up to playstyle. If you can get better DPS dual-wielding than with a 2-handed, I usually go dual wielding, and vice versa if I can get better DPS with the dual-handed. My playstyle is pretty ad-hoc. :/
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  • SenjaiSenjai Posts: 44
    Ahh, well the 60% increase always struck my as a bit overpowered. Unless like some games you start off with a penalty for dual wielding, I cant really say more without knowing the math behind it I suppose. Was considering one of those mods that increase the damage of 2handers, not sure if its gamebreaking or not though.

    I'll guess Id just have to try it out.
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    The other factor that affects this balance is not rule-based and can be a little murky to see, especially to a fairly new player.

    In general the damage output of typical 2-h weapons is considerably higher on a per-level-you-can-aquire/equip-at basis than it is for 1-handers. This breaks down a little at the extreme high end...but still the unmodified Epic Legendary **** Hammer is something like 1600 DPS, vs about 1350 for the highest 1-handers.

    Also a small but occasionally significant factor if you learn to use it (it takes a little practice, and doesn't apply to every situation) is the extra range of 2-handers vs melee 1-handers and melee monsters. range on 2-handers is 1.5 'meters'. Range on in-your-face melee is 1 'meter'. If you get good at it, and are fast, and have some knockback, you can often beat back a single or primary attacker so that you are hitting him on each approach and he is rarely getting close enough to strike.

    dreamrider
  • DeoreDXDeoreDX Posts: 6
    For me where 2H loses out over 1H or DW is the fact you lose a slot for modifiers. An example: With my DW Destroyer I looked for weapons with life leach. With life leaching modifiers on both weapons you can get some pretty darned good +health per hit. My DW Level 50something has a mace with 149 health per hit and a sword with 120. With some heavy enchanting I'm looking at 7-8 modifiers + gems in each weapon slot while the 2H only get 1/2 the number of enchantments and gems. Honestly I haven't played much 2H so maybe that benefit isn't as important as I think it is. But as far as DPS there is a little bit of an advantage of the 2H v. the others but it doesn't seem to be great enough to make up for the deficiencies.
  • zekromzekrom Posts: 114
    dreamrider wrote:
    ......
    In general the damage output of typical 2-h weapons is considerably higher on a per-level-you-can-aquire/equip-at basis than it is for 1-handers. This breaks down a little at the extreme high end...but still the unmodified Epic Legendary **** Hammer is something like 1600 DPS, vs about 1350 for the highest 1-handers.

    Also a small but occasionally significant factor if you learn to use it (it takes a little practice, and doesn't apply to every situation) is the extra range of 2-handers vs melee 1-handers and melee monsters. range on 2-handers is 1.5 'meters'. Range on in-your-face melee is 1 'meter'. If you get good at it, and are fast, and have some knockback, you can often beat back a single or primary attacker so that you are hitting him on each approach and he is rarely getting close enough to strike.

    dreamrider

    hmm...if the highest 2-h vs 1-h is like 1600 vs 1350 then 1-h damage will prolly overtake 2-h with the 60% from DW skill.
    DeoreDX wrote:
    For me where 2H loses out over 1H or DW is the fact you lose a slot for modifiers...
    this is a very good point too...

    so the only consolation for 2-h is the "range"???
    and even this works only on a 'single' enemy coz if there are more then knocking back 1 of them wont be enough.
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    True, though in many cases mobs are composed of smaller enemies that you may be one-shotting. In that case, many types of companion monsters (ratlins, pygmys, varks - I think) will run away/ open distance for .5-1 sec after each kill. Spiders, skeletons, lurkers, and felwings don't seem to think that way, though (or at all <grin>).

    I'm not arguing that you should favor 2-H, just saying that there are some subtle factors that reduce any disparity, and you already said that you liked 2-Handers.

    Try this one: the best experience boosting weapon in the game is a 2-H Polearm. Sharp Distance fanblade. +6% XP. Of course, it is a fairly low level polearm. The best 1-hand melee Uniques in this affix give +2%, if you equip 2 of them, 4% total.

    BTW, the coventional wisdom on the forums is that at higher levels/ higher difficulty, 1+shield is the melee way to go. Same advantages of more affixes and slots, and you need the defense more than you need the damage boost of DW.

    Personally I'm a glass cannon guy, so I tend to carry really over-buffed rifles/crossbows, occasionally some of the super pistols. I'm looking forward to playing a DW pistoleer with two Epic Stark Fists of Removal, however (each with +5 meter range boost, and +200% Crit damage).

    dreamrider
  • zekromzekrom Posts: 114
    what is the highest dps, dexterity, crit combo u ever reached? like your best weapon...u said your best dps was 4225. what was crit bonus and dex at that time?
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    Darn! I hate that timeout. Lost the detailed answer.

    I don't seem to have the 4225 any more. Don't know how I got there. I assume it was an E-Rib, but I don't remember losing a big one.

    Current biggest DPS is a 3783 E-Rib, but I like the 3606 straight Rib better. Both have empty sockets, and are not yet Heirloomed.
    Best crossbow is 2917 Windlass, but at deep levels I play a slightly less hunky E-Wind, because it has life-steal and the other doesn't.
    At dense enchantment levels, the best Windlasses slightly tend to outstrip the best Arbalests, because despite the original damage difference, the Windlasses are .1 faster.

    Best native Dex is 406. Not wearing best gear now, optimized for fishing. Best gear is all 'muled out', but I think the peak 'come'n'die, as*****s', fully geared Dex was about 720 (with enhanced Oonor's Band), or 650 (with 'next best', non-penalized ring).

    Best Crit percentage I remember was 96%, I think. I know I have never quite made 100%. Once Crit is over 50%, I optimize for other things.
    Best crit hits I have ever had were those 180,000 range hits that we discussed before. I haven't seen anything that high that I recall recently, but then I have been mostly using crossbows that are 800 - 1000 DPS less than my best rifles.

    dreamrider
  • zekromzekrom Posts: 114
    edited August 2012
    dreamrider wrote:
    Darn! I hate that timeout. Lost the detailed answer.
    type in notepad first.
    Best native Dex is 406. Not wearing best gear now, optimized for fishing. Best gear is all 'muled out', but I think the peak 'come'n'die, as*****s', fully geared Dex was about 720 (with enhanced Oonor's Band), or 650 (with 'next best', non-penalized ring).

    720?? holy ****

    but when u equip 720 dex gear u lose the dps and crit bonus right?
    wats the best combination all 3?(dps dex crit) prolly the one with which u do 180k damage...
  • dreamriderdreamrider Posts: 1,727
    The displayed weapon DPS doesn't change when I change other gear.

    The character sheet damage range does change, of course. Peak damage on most recent run to 100, with best gear, was about 9000-18000, I think.
    That was with a 2679 DPS crossbow, however, not the big rifle.

    I actually have been experimenting with Ice Pilium with this character, and did not put any points into Ricochet until right at the end, so I wasn't seeing the very peak Crit Strike #s, and I was using the lower DPS of the crossbow. I think I may have seen some 80,000 - 90,000 crits toward the end.

    Don't forget that all the +[elemental] damage, +[elemental] damage %, and + all physical & elemental damage % affixes are contributing to the final strike numbers as well.

    By the way, I think that Ice pilium may be a bit under-rated, though I still prefer Ricochet. The key on Ice Pilium seems to be that it is all Ice Damage, so only the Ice Resistance is counteracting. So quite effective even on level 100 champions. Max Ice P on my uber crossbow takes about 6-7 shots to down a level 100 Troll Juggernaut. The range on Ice Pilium is shorter than Ricochet, and it doesn't seem to penetrate as many enemies in a row, or penetrate when the 2nd target is deep behind. It does seem to have a bit wider strike box, however. I think it is better at cleaning out a close horde that's gotten right on top of you. It has the same sensitivity to blocking barriers that Ricochet does, maybe not quite as bad though.

    I plan to eventually do a character that is completly optimized as a Cold Killer, with super-enchanted Ice Dragonne, Ice Pilium as main killer Skill, and lots of +ice damage. 2 Max Cold Embers on the gun. I think she could be absolutely devastating.

    dreamrider
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