My Poison Outlander (with skills analysis)

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  • AcrylikAcrylik Posts: 1,848
    would be pretty handy for a rune vault away, hit that and then hit stone pact tho. the cast animation on it is so fast, try it...

    but if u can runevault away u can just hold it for a second longer so ehh.. idk.
  • magwomagwo Posts: 7
    Nice guide. Currently level 73 on my Outlander.

    However I will question the importance of Sentinel set. I got it and like it, but found it to be somewhat of a waste of time. Not that it's bad - it's just too time consuming to get good enough pieces that it will not gimp your damage. Sacrificing 50-100% poison damage just to make the full set will probably leave you with roughly the same damage output as before.

    I spent a bunch of hours shopping for the full set, and several of the pieces are individually still not even close to being as good as the ones I had before. Maybe I'm exploiting the shop mechanics inefficiently, but it takes a lot of time IMO. I'm already at lvl 73 starting to want to exchange pieces of gear for more survivability (low fps in internet games sometimes), but I don't want to break the 33% casting speed bonus so I remain squishy.

    My advice is: Depending on your goal with your Outlander, if you are just blasting through to max level, don't bother with the Sentinel set. You'll be cruising through normal NG+ just using +% poison gear, and you don't level slow enough to make the Sentinel set worthwhile.
  • There's no cap Focus for this build right? I'm lv60 and I haven't put point in other stats yet.
  • Atm i have like 47% casting and 259% poison dmg(678 focus), 31% crit chance and 54% crit dmg,
    Not using any set, just random unique with poison dmg and all dmg % and some decent blue with high focus.
    How it is compared to someone with that full set :?
  • Thanks Empyrean for the comment. Sorry I didn't reply back sooner. As you said, I loaded up on mana regen and it seems to be going nicely. It's a bit of a problem when I have faster cast speeds, but it's manageable with pots and vault/heep'ing. I have a new set of questions.

    I'm around 68-69 and my stats are something like base dex 60's, focus 200's, vit ~60's. I dual wield poison wands, my equip is mostly +% poison dmg.

    Do I get my base stats to 100, or should I just reach it through equip stats (would that be a waste of another potential stat bonus)?
    Later on in the game, what are more viable gems (besides mana regen)?
    Should I use a shield, sacrifice one of the wands, for more tanking abilities (as if the monsters don't 1-shot me anyways).
    Is flaming glaive worth the weakened poison def? Or just go with cursed dagger+glaive combo?

    Lastly, what should I be looking for in my equip now, besides +% poison dmg? Thanks in advanced, for your help!
  • TorhicTorhic Posts: 2
    Wondering if this would be the best way to use your skill and stats points
    [LINK DELETED]
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    Torhic wrote:
    Wondering if this would be the best way to use your skill and stats points
    [LINK DELETED]
    Yeah, I've pretty much bailed on Vitality. It doesn't make enough of a difference at harder settings and you can hit the block cap with a good enough shield even without anything in Vitality. But again, with appropriate gear you can also hit the dodge cap for Dexterity without putting a single point in it, but that's looking forward to level 100 stuff.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Hey Empyrean,

    I just read through most of the thread. (Well, the first few pages, then started skimming.) Awesome research and I applaud your dedication. Question for you, though, if you wouldn't mind. I read you said you weren't really doing Vit at this point. Assuming you went to 110 Dex and the rest Focus, (or all focus, but let's say you went with Dex) would this be a good starting point for your build?

    [LINK DELETED]

    I'm trying to figure out what utility skills would be useful, as I've pretty much never touched Outlanders. Would Shadowling Ammo and Death Ritual be good? They seem to be a passive benefit that wouldn't throw off the Dagger/Glaive attack rhythm, though I can't say how effective they would be without +Minion gear. Just not sure what the other options are, if any, and if they're better. Assume I'm going Pistol/Shield for stats and Pistol for Tangling shot. What's are some good filled out options? I intend on doing this character on HC Veteran, if that makes a difference.

    Thanks a bunch.
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    Shadowling Ammo doesn't trigger off of Glaive kills. It'll never do much of anything for you.
    Assuming you went to 110 Dex and the rest Focus, (or all focus, but let's say you went with Dex) would this be a good starting point for your build?
    Yeah, looks pretty good. I'd probably drop a point out of Glaive Sweep for Bramble Wall. You can build charge off of it before combat, which is a big deal in ****. The tier 1 bonus for Glaive Sweep isn't too great since you really don't want to be in a position where glaive sweep is much good to you. You can allocate the other three points to whatever you want; I'd suggest trying out Shattering Glaive just for the range; you can fight champion monsters (and bosses) from beyond visual range with it, and while it doesn't benefit from Master of the Elements, it does do physical damage and benefits from Blade Pact's -physical armor debuff. If you like it with just a few points, you could put more into it by taking from Repulsion Hex. I've found that Repulsion Hex is pretty much foolproof at ten ranks; the extra five make it significantly more powerful, but that extra power really isn't needed. It takes a lot of melee enemies to overwhelm Repulsion Hex even with just the ten ranks.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Assuming I only put 10 into Repulsion, I'm currently sitting at this.

    [LINK DELETED]

    Still have a decent amount of points available to flesh things out. I'm interested in Shattering but I don't want to have too many actives, lest I start forgetting to use something. I'm not sure. How would you allocate the last 24? And what would you remove?

    I'm currently level 20 and at this - [LINK DELETED] - Just about to start pumping Focus.
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    I'd drop 14 out of Glaive Sweep. It's dangerous to use.

    Max Venomous Hail, consider points into Blade Pact or Shattering Glaive to use for long range stuff or against enemies that you can one-shot when Glaive Throw takes two.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    By the way, I've rewritten the original post from scratch to include more details about different skills and tricks, gear suggestions, and a 124 point build with 8 left over for whatever you want.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    I personally found there are about 3-4 skills that are a bit redundant in outlander skill trees, specifically rapid fire, chaos burst, shadowshot, and shattering glaive. Maybe I push it too far to include rapid fire there, since it doesn't provide that much CC compared to the other 3 skills. Each skills have their owns pros and cons, so pick one or two that suits your playstyle most.

    Cursed daggers can also be put into that category, but I didn't put it because I think it's worth at least one point on every build, just to get the debuff itself, even after you take two of the skills from the above.
    I would have put venomous hail into this category if it was not for the unique capability of venomous hail that can shoot enemies anywhere as long as it's on your screen.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • AcrylikAcrylik Posts: 1,848
    uhhh cursed daggers is sick. i've been using a modified version of this glaive build on 105 maps on a level 67. its ng+ elite. having no problems at all.

    dunno why ure calling those redundant hahah. i use them all the time.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Acrylik wrote:
    uhhh cursed daggers is sick. i've been using a modified version of this glaive build on 105 maps on a level 67. its ng+ elite. having no problems at all.

    dunno why ure calling those redundant hahah. i use them all the time.
    I said that it can be put, but I didn't actually put it.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • AcrylikAcrylik Posts: 1,848
    damage reduction gems for 30-60 dr, cursed daggers, stone pact, repulsion hex, blade pact, 75 dodge and 50 block. cursed daggers maxed btw, always throw em first.

    yeah that's overpowered. i was intentionally being sloppy and died to 4 purple orbs from a spell cast by a champion mob. i wanted to see if it'd kill me vs monsters 40 levels higher.

    EDIT: oh btw i stuck +hp too.
  • Question about Shattering Glaive. According to the skill reference list, SG does ~25% more damage (4753 over 3796) at rank 15 than glaive throw does at rank 5 but the mana cost of SG is ~2x. What about SG makes it more worthwhile for bosses than just throwing 2 regular glaives? Is it the AoE effects and snare or the fire trails?
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Question about Shattering Glaive. According to the skill reference list, SG does ~25% more damage (4753 over 3796) at rank 15 than glaive throw does at rank 5 but the mana cost of SG is ~2x. What about SG makes it more worthwhile for bosses than just throwing 2 regular glaives? Is it the AoE effects and snare or the fire trails?
    The secondary effect. Basically when SG hits, it deals the primary damage. Then explodes in 6m radius dealing additional phys dmg and leaving 4 fire trails that does fire dmg. It cost more mana than level 5 glaive obviously, but it's worth it.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    xylonez wrote:
    Question about Shattering Glaive. According to the skill reference list, SG does ~25% more damage (4753 over 3796) at rank 15 than glaive throw does at rank 5 but the mana cost of SG is ~2x. What about SG makes it more worthwhile for bosses than just throwing 2 regular glaives? Is it the AoE effects and snare or the fire trails?
    The secondary effect. Basically when SG hits, it deals the primary damage. Then explodes in 6m radius dealing additional phys dmg and leaving 4 fire trails that does fire dmg. It cost more mana than level 5 glaive obviously, but it's worth it.
    A direct hit causes the first damage listed (4753) as well as the area effect damage (3321) plus the tier 3 fire damage (3637) which hits once for each flame trail (four of these; usually you only see three, but there are actually four of them). So while Glaive Throw hits for 3796 and gets a bigger bonus from Master of the Elements, a rank 15 Shattering Glaive hits for somewhere between five and six times as much damage against a single target. It's more expensive to cast and has a slower casting speed, but the DPS is higher. Against spread out targets or trash mobs that don't require the magic equivalent of a tactical nuke, Glaive Throw gets the job done more quickly. For maximum damage, use poison skills to apply the Poisoned condition to your target, then unload with Shattering Glaive. Venomous Hail is best for this, since it hits so many times it's practically guaranteed to poison the target.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • AcrylikAcrylik Posts: 1,848
    xylonez i tested shadowmantle out on 105 ng+ elite maps.. it's very viable man. almost necessary vs certain elite champions like the trogs and the netherim glaive throwers. i drained every point out of venomous hail for it.

    while the cd is longer than the duration- 6 seconds at 15- you'll often expect to encounter certain enemies and bosses and be able to setup. it's really amazing at level 15, it bounces so much with a 75% chance.

    just trust me.. it's worth every point at LATER levels. i have it keybinded above stonepact at e, shadowmantle is 3. once you get used to it you can do it on impulse too, like vs traps u activate or the moment you see certain monsters.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Acrylik wrote:
    xylonez i tested shadowmantle out on 105 ng+ elite maps.. it's very viable man. almost necessary vs certain elite champions like the trogs and the netherim glaive throwers. i drained every point out of venomous hail for it.

    while the cd is longer than the duration- 6 seconds at 15- you'll often expect to encounter certain enemies and bosses and be able to setup. it's really amazing at level 15, it bounces so much with a 75% chance.

    just trust me.. it's worth every point at LATER levels. i have it keybinded above stonepact at e, shadowmantle is 3. once you get used to it you can do it on impulse too, like vs traps u activate or the moment you see certain monsters.
    My outlander have about 48.5% chance to reflect missiles without shadowmantle. Shadowmantle is a good skill, I have to admit that, the effect is just nice.

    The main problem, however, is the duration and the cd skill. It's more like a short dur buff that you use for boss fights, and this kinda spells/skills falls into the dervish category where the cooldown is way longer than the duration itself. Mark my word, if they change shadowmantle to something like Berserk's ice shield I will take it at least 1 point.

    I'm trying a different approach for my glaive outlander. Basically I try to make all of my skills so that I only need wand for them(no VH, RF, CB, SS). I take 15 points from VH to SG, the damage from SG is just **** crazy that it easily surpasses my glaive's highest damage dealt. I use brute if I run through elite. Believe it or not, it actually works better than shadowmantle. 5 points in brute is enough and about 10-12 points in death ritual. This work wonders for me.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    It's worth pointing out that different sources of "chance to reflect missiles" are considered independently for each missile attack. If you have 50% reflection from a shield and 50% reflection from another item, it rolls for deflection twice (at 50% each time) rather than adding the chance of reflection together. The end result is a missile deflection chance of 75% rather than the 100% you'd get if they were added together. This makes stacking missile deflection a lot less effective than it would otherwise be.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • NythainNythain Posts: 527
    Empyrean wrote:
    It's worth pointing out that different sources of "chance to reflect missiles" are considered independently for each missile attack. If you have 50% reflection from a shield and 50% reflection from another item, it rolls for deflection twice (at 50% each time) rather than adding the chance of reflection together. The end result is a missile deflection chance of 75% rather than the 100% you'd get if they were added together. This makes stacking missile deflection a lot less effective than it would otherwise be.
    If the individual % are decent enough, i'd say around the 15-20% mark for 3 or more, 25%+ for 2, it could almost be considered more effective. Any % has a chance of failing, 75% chance of something could never occur over the course of many many many checks honestly. 20% chance could occur after a few. Either way, what I'm getting at is basically since we're talking % chances, having more chances is always better than one higher chance. if the first check fails then you're not totally jacked, you still have a decent chance at 1 or more attempts. Look at how frequently low % chance abilities proc on some skills.

    On the topic of reflecting missiles, is there a proven conclusion as to whether or not the % damage reflected back is still dealt to the player?
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  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    Nythain wrote:
    Either way, what I'm getting at is basically since we're talking % chances, having more chances is always better than one higher chance.
    Statistics do not work that way.

    In the example I gave, if the changes were added together rather than rolled separately, you would never fail to reflect an attack. Since they are not added together, your odds of failure are one in four. Let's use a different example and see if it sticks better: a shield with 50% reflection and an item with 40% reflection. Added together you'd reflect 90%. Rolled separately you'd reflect 70%. The more different things you roll for, the worse your results are compared to rolling once against the sum of all modifiers to reflect. If you were to have one item with 50% and two with 20% each, you'd only reflect 68%.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • PyrosEienPyrosEien Posts: 269
    Empyrean wrote:
    Nythain wrote:
    Either way, what I'm getting at is basically since we're talking % chances, having more chances is always better than one higher chance.
    Statistics do not work that way.

    In the example I gave, if the changes were added together rather than rolled separately, you would never fail to reflect an attack. Since they are not added together, your odds of failure are one in four. Let's use a different example and see if it sticks better: a shield with 50% reflection and an item with 40% reflection. Added together you'd reflect 90%. Rolled separately you'd reflect 70%. The more different things you roll for, the worse your results are compared to rolling once against the sum of all modifiers to reflect. If you were to have one item with 50% and two with 20% each, you'd only reflect 68%.

    Still ends up being decent when combined with block and dodge rolls, but yeah you can't reach 100%reflect unless you're a berserker(then you only need 10points in iceshield...). Wish the spell scaled on duration, like .5secs per rank, considering it can't reach 100% anyway so it's not that good to begin with. Don't get why then it has a longer cooldown than duration, since it's not a 100% spell.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Empyrean wrote:
    It's worth pointing out that different sources of "chance to reflect missiles" are considered independently for each missile attack. If you have 50% reflection from a shield and 50% reflection from another item, it rolls for deflection twice (at 50% each time) rather than adding the chance of reflection together. The end result is a missile deflection chance of 75% rather than the 100% you'd get if they were added together. This makes stacking missile deflection a lot less effective than it would otherwise be.
    I noticed this as well. I don't really have free gems so it doesn't really matter for me atm, but I think that %reflect isn't that good compared to other defensive gem.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • AcrylikAcrylik Posts: 1,848
    ahh.. my gems and armor are all fcr (poisn dmg if not applicable)/dmg reduction/mana recovery/+hp
    stacking gems and armor for it doesnt work for me... thats why i use the skill.

    i was looking at sg but glaive just bounces everything and demolishes. im sold on it and cursed daggers for the debuffs/buffs.
  • Assuming I don't need mana regen gems for my armor, what other gem's should I be looking for?
  • chungabe wrote:
    Assuming I don't need mana regen gems for my armor, what other gem's should I be looking for?

    Focus, Cast Speed, +HP and etc
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  • AcrylikAcrylik Posts: 1,848
    also.. shattering glaive doesn't interupt and wont put poison debuff on anything.

    im not quite sure if this is true, but with my 80% or something rediculous fcr and the 80% interupt chance on glaives bouncing between them and their pet other players are unable to attack me once i start glaiving them. they just stand there and die.

    haven't been able to ask any of them yet seeing as they've all dc'd... same would apply to trash mobs.
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