Lets Crackalacka Redux - LvL 100 vs the Dummy (Tank)

Wonka11Wonka11 Posts: 53
edited October 2012 in Engineer Discussions
Figured I'd make a character through console and try and figure out what abilities do the most damage, dependent on certain stats and skills.

I used some of the best armor and weapons available for Engineer to see these abilities' full potential with the gear to support it.

Here is a list of the gear I used:

Armor = Mondon's. The Entire set. [LINK DELETED]
Shield = Old Master Q [LINK DELETED]
Weapon = Netherblade [LINK DELETED] (Don't mind the armory's DPS for the weapon. It is incorrect. DPS in game was 869)


Strength Only test: 15/15 Flame Hammer, 15/15 Emberquake, 15/15 Fire and Spark, 15/15 Sword and Board, and 15/15 Healing Bot (Mana Regen)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9-1MRaO ... e=youtu.be

Strength and Focus test at a 2:1 ratio: Same Skills and Armor set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_p4WJuD ... e=youtu.be


Update:

I'll try to keep this as precise as possible as this thread is already ridiculously long.

Depending on your preference, and if you're going to choose Flame Hammer over Emberquake is going to determine your play overall.

From my individual testing, using abilities like Ember Reach or Tremor does not increase the damage on Flame hammer, or at least not by an amount that I could readily notice. This brings up an interesting stipulation. On our tool tips in game it tells us that at max rank Fire hammer inflicts 124% weapon damage to the target. The damage on the tool tip is unspecified; it is neither physical nor fire, it simply says 124% weapon damage. The highest hits I could get with Flame hammer using a strength only build was 17k-18 area, sometimes 20k but I think that is in addition to multiple splinters hitting the target (alone). However when I combined this same build when using Fire Bash we see a massive increase in damage; we're talking from a range of 28k to 38-40k in some situations. At range (IE me standing away from the target) splinters which combined hit for 8-9k, are now hitting from 14 to 18k.

Now if you look at the armory tool tip for Flame hammer, you'll see that two different things are written on it. One says straight weapon damage, the other says inflicts it as fire damage. Since Ember Reach and Tremor are not making a noticeable difference in damage when using Flame Hammer, I'm starting to believe that the damage is fully converted into Fire damage, or the majority is converted into fire damage which would also explain why Flame Hammer's damage scales rapidly with a full focus build as well - Just the weapon damage part, not the splinters (To test I attempted to buff the damage on splinters by raising my focus to over 1,000. There was no change in damage. Unless values over a certain amount are bugged, then I wouldn't rely on focus to buff the splinter damage on Flame Hammer). Splinter damage was effected moderately by strength however, just not as much as Emberstrike's fissures are effected by focus (most likely also due to the 50% fire damage increase on its last tier). On a full focus build however, because of the fire damage on Emberquake, and with no real weapon damage added to flame hammer from a lack of strength to add to weapon damage (Unless you're using a weapon with elemental damage as its main source of damage, which seems to increase overall weapon damage the more focus you're investing) Emberquake vastly outperforms Flame Hammer in this situation.

Now on a strength build, or a hybrid 2/1/2 strength/focus/stamina build, the issue is definitely not as clear when you're using a weapon with straight physical damage on it and no magical damage as strength will only increase the weapon damage on a pure physical weapon (as some others have stated in other threads I've browsed through regarding this topic), which means Flame hammer gets its 124% benefit compared to Emberquakes 65% benefit with 50% increase fire damage at rank 15. Just between the two, 65% to 124% is a 59% weapon damage difference which is significant; even with 50% increased fire damage on Emberquake, the initial damage of Flame Hammer is still going to outperform Emberquake's initial damage. Where things get sketchy is if all the splinters/fissures hit, if you have charge for Flame hammer, if the target has elemental damage resistance, if splinters are not absorbed by other monsters.. there are a bunch of different variables that will effect this situation.

Before we get to the conclusion in all this convoluted data that is reliant on situation, I did have the chance to test a slow two handed weapon with Flame Hammer versus a fast one hander (the dps difference was around 50, give or take in the two hander's favor, yet I was using sword and board with the one hander setup). There was no damage difference reliant on weapon speed from what I could tell. The damage is strictly based off of weapon damage which is effected by sword and board and weapon damage/magic damage on the weapon only. Speed does not seem to play a part in the damage calculation of these abilities which makes sense since weapon damage overall factors in weapon speed already; that is how it comes up with an overall weapon damage (DPS) of the weapon initially. This also means that your damage from Sword and Board is already calculated into your weapon damage, and while a faster sword will benefit from this ability more than a slower one on auto attacks, it has nothing to do with ability usage; what you see is what you get on the weapon damage rating.

Now back to the main issue, what do we use with what setup. I'll just break each stat focus down below.

Focus/Vitality 3:2 Ratio: Emberquake and all your abilities will hit harder than any other stat combination. This is the highest damage build, but it simply isn't practical if we're going for a tank build. Forget using any armor or weapons that require any strength, whatsoever until you reach a level that the item becomes accessible at (which at this point I believe, though I am not sure, but I do believe that the item is already behind the level curve for its statistics unless it is a very good magical item. (IE a tank item you could have used 5-6 levels ago because you had the strength, you can use now but other tank items with strength requirements at your level are 5-6 levels better)).

Emberquake in this spec with the best items will likely be netting you (If all fissures hit a single target) up to 50k damage and about 60-80k when Fire Bash is applied. Your dots from seismic slam will hit for 6-7k per tick and about 10k or more with fire bash applied to the target. Additionally, Dynamo Field will hit pretty **** hard as well. Any ability that relies on weapon damage however (unless you're using a staff or a wand and can buff your weapon damage) will suffer overall damage in comparison to these abilities.

Strength/Vitality 3:2 Ratio: Sees a high amount of damage from Flame hammer, yet strangely is comparable to a 2/1/2 ratio build (Most likely because focus is calculated into total fire damage of the initial hit, which we'll talk about next). You'll get to wear tank armor or harder hitting weapons faster with such high strength but any ability that does not do some form of "inflicts % of weapon damage" on it is going to suffer. Seismic slam and Dynamo will be strictly for utility. When you do critically hit (and despite neglecting dexterity, you can get items to raise it) you'll critical the hardest of the three stat point builds.

Strength/Focus/Vitality 2:1:2 Ratio: In my own opinion, this build gives the highest versatility, rounding out your skills by increasing the damage on both "inflict weapon damage" and straight elemental damage abilities. While Focus will not effect the splinter damage on Flame hammer it will increase the main portion of Flame Hammer's damage (the inflicts part, as per testing seems to indicate); your strength will increase the damage on the splinters so there is some damage increase to splinters relating to the big picture. If you choose to go Emberquake, you'll see comparable damage overall to Flame Hammer depending on resists/and how many fissures actually hit their target(s). Seismic slam will still do a good amount of supplemental damage, especially combined with Fire Bash (which you should be using in this setup before using any of your attacks). You'll get tank items at nearly the same rate as the 3:2 strength/vitality build unless for some reason you're in an area that is much higher level than you and a super decent magical item drops with an insane amount of strength required for it (but usually it will require nearly the same amount of vitality so you may just be out of luck anyway). Overall (this is my personal opinion) I believe this spec is the most versatile with the highest flexibility and adaptability of the three. You'll deal a strong amount of damage (not as much 'raw' damage as 3:2 Focus/Vitality) and your crits will actually deal a significant amount of damage more than a straight focus build will (Again items will compensate for a low critical rate).

Now comes the question of, Flame Hammer vs Emberquake.

They're both really good, and they're both situational as to what is best. Straight strength builds should favor Flame Hammer, straight focus will favor Emberquake. The 2/1/2 build will depend on your personal preference and whether or not your weapon derives its damage strictly from physical damage or is a mix of physical and magic damage.

I am going to favor Flame Hammer for my choice, which again is preference but I'll try to explain why. Flame Hammer deals the majority of its damage through its initial hit with dot damage to anyone hit by the initial blast; the splinters are really just gravy if they hit your main target and deal some off damage, but we're mainly concerned with the initial impact of Flame Hammer. Emberquake technically has the higher damage ceiling potential in this build, but it is reliant on all of its fissures hitting its main target to compete with the upfront damage of Flame Hammer. As we know, in groups of multiple enemies and even lone single targets, due to the homing mechanics on each ability, it is not realistic to expect every fissure to hit your main target every time; its actually nearly impossible if you're fighting a group of monsters. The damage will still be good, granted, but I'm more the player who favors reliability over potentiality. Furthermore, Fire Hammer's initial impact is a small AOE; it will hit multiple targets with its upfront damage depending on how close they are when you drop a Hammer. If we're not including seismic slam (which will hit for the same anyway in a 2/1/2 build which is what I am going), I still consider this a more reliable source of AoE damage that can kill grouped enemies a bit faster than Emberquake can since its damage is mainly from its fissures; do you sort of see what I'm getting at?

In short, in a perfect situation, with all fissures hitting a single target, Emberquake will out damage Flame Hammer. Yet, since this is more often than not to be the case in single target situations, and nearly impossible in monster mobs, I'm going to choose Flame Hammer for this reason alone.

Emberquake does have the benefit of higher damage fissures however, which means it is a better suited ability to kite from a distance (single target monster or pack of monsters (you just wont get its initial damage on hit if you're casting at range)).

So that about sums it up. I encourage players to test on their own because these findings are highly speculative and in honesty no amount of findings are worth while unless they're peer reviewed in the first place; so please, test as well and see what your own experience comes up with. It could be vastly different than my own.

Here is the link to the build I'm using, I haven't hit 100 yet but this is what I'm shooting for: Engineer 42/30/60

Keep in mind this is highly subject to change and feel free to tinker around with it yourself. The only real things that I'd say were mandatory or imperative to the build were Flame Hammer/Emberquake, Force Field, Fire and Spark, Healing Bot (Mana every 5 seconds), Fire Bash, and Dynamo for building charges. The rest is whatever you wish to choose.

Also note, Sword and Board will have varying degrees of effectiveness with your current shield. If you don't get a shield with a high amount of armor, the need for this ability is not as high as it would be if you suddenly found a Old Master Q somewhere along your journey. One point into this will be sufficient until you start getting shields with much higher armor on them.

Also, I simply prefer Seismic slam over Overload. It is personal preference really, I just like how it functions and the graphic on it. It also benefits greatly from Fire Bash so that is a big plus.
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Comments

  • Wonka11,

    Awesome testing! :)

    Thanks for doing that! :) To clarify, when you say "splinter damage" and "fissure damage" ... are those numbers for EACH individual splinter/fissure, or for the combined total of ALL of the splinters/fissures?

    Would you mind trying out Seismic Stomp and seeing what kind of numbers you get?
  • Wonka11 wrote:
    Figured I'd make a character through console and try and figure out what abilities do the most damage, dependent on certain stats and skills.

    I used some of the best armor and weapons available for Engineer to see these abilities' full potential with the gear to support it.

    *Important Note 0* Dot damage for some reason does not display on the dummy, even with verbose damage text listed. All of the following damage numbers are a result of direct damage from the abilities and their splinters/fissures.

    Here is a list of the gear I used:

    Armor = Mondon's. The Entire set. [LINK DELETED]
    Shield = Old Master Q [LINK DELETED]
    Weapon = Netherblade and Hammer of Official Rebuke (Don't mind the armory's DPS for the weapons. It is incorrect. My DPS on each was between 835-869)
    [LINK DELETED]

    Without adding any stats from the 495 stat points you get from leveling, my base stats with armor and weapon + shield were as follows:

    Arcane Statistics:

    Attack Speed Bonus +10%
    Critical Chance 2%
    Critical Damage Bonus +141%
    Fumble Chance - forgot to look
    Fumble Damage Penalty - forgot to look
    Physical Damage Bonus - 20%

    Elemental Damage Bonuses:

    95% additional fire damage
    95% additional lightning damage

    Character sheet:

    127 Strength > 994-1596 Weapon Damage (No Sword and Board)
    5 Dex
    5 Focus
    127 Vitality > 1437-2874 Armor (No Bulwark)

    At this point, I maxed Fire and Spark, Flame Hammer, and Emberquake and began testing their damage output - Still none into Sword and Board.

    Flame Hammer: Initial hit of 1.5-3.5k Damage - Splinter damage hitting between 500 to 1000. (No Charges)

    Emberquake: Initial hit for 10-15k Damage - Fissure damage ranged anywhere between 3,000 to 9,000 damage.


    Adding points into Sword and Board > 1234-1836 weapon damage.

    Flame Hammer: Initial hit 9 - 14k Damage. Splinter damage for 2,000 to 3,000 damage.

    Emberquake: Initial hit, 20-24k Damage. Fissure damage for 4500 to 9500 damage. (Interesting to see that fire damage fluctuated barely. The minimum average rose but cap was the same)


    Using 15/15 Fire Bash on target before using each ability.

    Flame Hammer: Initial hit 20-24k damage. Splinter damage 2,000 to 6,000 damage.

    Emberquake: Initial hit 22-24k damage. Fissure damage 5,000 to 18,500+ damage.


    100 points added into Focus > 1300 to 1968 Weapon Damage

    Flame Hammer: Initial damage 13,000 to 18,000. Splinter damage still between 2400'ish to 6,000; with a rare 9,000 crit. Average damage does seem to increase however.

    Emberquake: Initial hit 22,000 up to 29,000 damage. Fissure damage 5,000 to 27,000 damage.

    *Important Note* Even when hitting the ground at range and allowing the fissures to travel to the target, Emberquakes damage is considerably the same. This may mean the "Inflicts 63% weapons damage" is included in one or more of the fissures.

    *Important Note 2* Maybe not, when in melee with the target I consistently hit higher numbers (up to 29,000) while from ranged alone highest I could get was a rare 27,000 damage.


    100 strength added again > 1537 to 2339 weapon damage

    Flame Hammer: Initial damage (melee) 23,000 -25,000. Splinter damage 2.5 to 13k damage.

    Emberquake: Initial damage (melee) 25,000 to 31,000 damage. Fissure damage 11k to an amazing 32,000 at range. *Important Note 3* Maybe Important Note one is correct.


    100 Focus added again > 1603 to 2471 weapon damage

    Flame Hammer: Initial damage (melee) 23,000 to 28,000 damage. Splinter damage (range) 3,500 to 17,5000 damage.

    Emberquake: Initial damage (melee) 26,000 to 34,000 damage. Fissure damage 11,000 to another 34,000 damage at range. *important Note 4* No idea what in the **** is happening here.



    So those are the results. Maybe someone with better knowledge of how the statistics work can explain these findings.

    I hypothesize that strength is the main determinate to increase the overall damage of each ability; however, and I mean a big however, I believe as focus increases, you will see a higher return on the fissure damage from Emberquake up to a certain point. Focus and Strength both appear to hit a diminishing return cap after the first 120-150 or so invested into it; however, the damage is still very considerable from the investment just based on the numbers.


    Oh also for posterity:

    15/15 Shield Bash with bonuses from armor: 7370 damage. Everytime. I just plain don't like this ability.

    How were you building charge?

    Thats why shield bash is important. the dmg output you got was that with very little charge?
  • @Grim Splinter and Fissure damage represents damage per individual splinter/fissure.

    @boxjon I purposely avoided building charge to see minimal damage on each ability. Regardless however, building charges for either of these abilities does not effect their damage per individual splinter/fissure.

    Flame hammer generates two extra splinters at the expense of one charge and only uses a charge per use of flame hammer. Emberquake gains no benefits from charge at all.

    For building charge however, I use Dynamo field instead of shield bash.
  • Wonka11 wrote:
    @Grim Splinter and Fissure damage represents damage per individual splinter/fissure.

    @boxjon I purposely avoided building charge to see minimal damage on each ability. Regardless however, building charges for either of these abilities does not effect their damage per individual splinter/fissure.

    Flame hammer generates two extra splinters at the expense of one charge and only uses a charge per use of flame hammer. Emberquake gains no benefits from charge at all.

    For building charge however, I use Dynamo field instead of shield bash.

    Well the thing is shield bash builds charge faster, and at higher levels a full bar charge of Forcefield could be the difference between being alive or dead. Hmm.
  • Wonka11Wonka11 Posts: 53
    edited September 2012
    boxjon wrote:
    Well the thing is shield bash builds charge faster, and at higher levels a full bar charge of Forcefield could be the difference between being alive or dead. Hmm.

    I can't agree with this statement. Shield bash actually gains charges at the same rate as Dynamo does. Dynamo is however more reliable as its damage is an aoe field of 5 meters hitting completely around your character, rather than relying on shield bash's lance mechanic which sometimes doesn't hit targets you intend it to. Two casts of dynamo is enough to max out your bar if it hits the 5 target max. The field's aoe is substantially larger than shield bash's lance range. Both acquire a charge of .48 per target hit. Only one of them benefits from Fire and Spark.
  • Wonka11 wrote:
    I can't agree with this statement. Shield bash actually gains charges at the same rate as Dynamo does. Dynamo is however more reliable as its damage is an aoe field hitting completely around your character, rather than relying on shield bash's lance mechanic which sometimes doesn't hit targets you intend it to. Two casts of dynamo is enough to max out your bar if it hits the 5 target max. Both acquire a charge of .42 per target hit. Only one of them benefits from Fire and Spark.


    OK,m I can see your point but how about the slight redundancy with Emberquake and Flame Hammer. In your tests you said that STR effects dmg more, so maybe flame hammer is better option, with sword and board and use the points from emberquake for a utility skill?
  • Well the test isn't based on a build that includes the two, rather its a comparison of each ability at the same levels of strength, focus, and weapon damage.

    So far, the test results lead to a strong hypothesis that Emberquake outperforms Flame Hammer (by a lot) at rank 15 just based on its teir bonus that increases its fire damage.

    It would be annoying to level up though, constantly putting in and removing 3 points in Flame Hammer until you are able to access Emberquake, but its damage seems to be far superior to that of Flame Hammer.

    To be honest though, the findings sit with me dubiously. I get a gut feeling that we're missing something important within this equation that may or may not determine the true potential of each ability.
  • Would you mind trying out Seismic Stomp and seeing what kind of numbers you get?

    The dummy itself does not report dot damage unfortunately. I did try this on general grell however, at the stats I used the initial stomp dealt 5.6k'ish damage, with a 2.5k dot tick. The tick appeared to go off faster than each second. Damage dealt was much higher than the tool tip reported, which was +1013 Fire damage and the dot at 5190 fire damage over 5 seconds.
  • Wonka11 wrote:
    Would you mind trying out Seismic Stomp and seeing what kind of numbers you get?

    The dummy itself does not report dot damage unfortunately. I did try this on general grell however, at the stats I used the initial stomp dealt 5.6k'ish damage, with a 2.5k dot tick. The tick appeared to go off faster than each second. Damage dealt was much higher than the tool tip reported, which was +1013 Fire damage and the dot at 5190 fire damage over 5 seconds.

    Thanks, that's kind of what I was noticing from my own testing, because of DSPZulu's post here: http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=37364&p=336153#p335645

    Do you think Seismic Stomp is worth getting into a build, because of it's large AOE damage? (my personal opinion is, I'm leaning towards -> yes)

    I'm also wondering, do you feel that Sword and Board made that much of a difference in the dmg dealt? For Flame Hammer I can see why.. but for Emberquake?
    For the first dmg numbers you posted I can see it increased, I'm wondering - Where all the dmg numbers you posted consecutively built upon each other?
    I.E. - first you posted dmg's, then you added sword and board and posted those numbers, THEN you added 100 focus then another 100 str, another 100 focus - where these 100 focus/str/focus IN ADDITION to the having sword and board, or where they separate, without sword and board?

    Do you have a link to a build you are doing after this testing? Thanks again!
  • Shield bash synergizes with tremor, dynamo field doesnt :). I dont think we should be comparing the twoanyway, people shouldnt be spamming shield bash for charge. they should use it to charge over to a target, debuff them with it, then take a couple whacks with a supercharged wePon which scales with tremor and sword and board. oh, and coup de gras, sorta, sometimes...

    shield bash is more like onslaugh but with i think better dps and good stun at the expenseof range and duration...which is fine when you consider that a decent bash spec should be using tremor which rocks as a debuff anda dynamo spec picks up fire&spark?

    in a three man group with an outlander and a berserker doing physical builds will melt faces thanks to that tremor/shield bash. takes a lot of levels before fire bash is offerring. even close to what tremor does to a fire outlander or an embermage.

    Tldr: side by side comparison of individual skills is all well and good but its putting under a microscope something that is better looked at from a step back, not just the build as a whole either but how you got there, when/where was it strong and when/where was it weak. its the journey not the destination.

    ps. respeccing 3 points every level from ten to 42 isnt just annoying. its cost prohibitive .
  • Wonka11Wonka11 Posts: 53
    edited September 2012
    The only way to get any use out of shield bash is actually, to the contrary, is to spam it. The charge on it is negligible in both situations because the range is incredibly small on the lance mechanic. Compared to onslaught, of which its charge range is a considerable distance, has a superior debuff by not only 2% but by length as well, but also deals damage that is directly effected by Fire and Spark, the ability can't stand up to the utility investing even 1 point in onslaught brings over a full 15 in shield bash.

    If anything Tremor detracts from shield bash's use because the ability knocks back all targets affected, which is exactly the opposite of what shield bash needs to operate within its designated role (tightly packed groups of enemies). The damage on shield bash, even using a Master Q Shield with bonus to physical damage is still incredibly small (7000 area) as stated in the above post. Even with the increased 50% increase physical damage from tremor, you've just scattered all the enemies, to deal another 3500 damage to a single target. If anything the function of these two abilities conflicts with each other, not synergizes.

    You could try and take ember reach, but even then the damage isn't worth the investment. 10,000 damage is the equivalent of one area effect smash from Fire Hammer or Emberquake. Furthermore the damage doesn't scale with stat increases, it is solely based off of your shield's armor rating.

    Onslaught on the other hand, does scale, and what it trades for not having a stun is a fantastic all around debuff to attack speed, casting, and movement, as well has a lengthy charge, and generates a bit of charge. Combined with seismic slam, you're going to see results that a tremor and shield bash combo cant even produce on a single target.

    And speaking of seismic slam, that is another great ability that not only stuns a large area, but further synergizes with Fire and Spark and gains more damage the more points invested into it.

    Also, you're not accounting for the fact that many outlanders are favoring poison builds around glaives, not physical builds. In other threads its been discussed that physical damage is mitigated heavily in higher level gameplay while elemental resistances are far less common. It is needless to say that this hampers physical builds greatly, which is why a lot of players are investing in builds that can circumvent this situation, or stacking heavily on negative armor resistance (much less common).

    I'm not sure why people fight tooth and nail for shield bash, or swear to death that it is great and works well. In truth, what we have is a very sub par ability, that doesn't scale with stat investment, sees a small marginal return for its damage, has a tiny charge range, and is mitigated by a great deal of monsters in higher levels; if that isnt enough for you, champions have incredibly high stun resistance and bosses are flat out immune. The ability itself can't even be justified as a charge builder since Dynamo does this exponentially better, from a longer range, and is safer since you can generate charge from range if needed when kiting at lower gear/levels in elite.

    So to return back to your original comment about how comparing ability by ability doesn't work, this was never the issue. In previous posts I've gone over why shield bash is not only a bad ability solely, but also why it simple does not synergize with anything in our kit. There are so many other options that can provide much more efficiency for your point investment if you're looking to min maxing.

    If you're playing because you enjoy the ability on a personal level, thats fine and dandy. But claiming that the ability is not sub par in the grand scope of things may give others a false perception and generate expectations much too high that the ability simply can not produce.

    Often when we talk about build optimization like we are in this thread (comparing two abilities), it is precisely the end result we are looking at. Diablo 2 is a great example of this, and such was the norm for players to restrict their skill usage and 'grin and bear it' until they finally reached the level where they would see return from their optimization.

    The journey may be the wonderous part about the exploratory part of the game, but it certainly has no place in the optimization of a build.
  • StoxStox Posts: 43
    Wow, very nice job Wonka! I was looking for something like this.

    Question: Did Flamehammer w/ a Charge (3X splinters on a single tgt) seem to do more damage than Emberquake (with Fissure)?? I can see the numbers, but without seeing how Emberquake works I'm kind of skeptical of changing into this build.

    I'm thinking of trying this [LINK DELETED] build.

    I'm thinking about using Autoattack as my default Charge builder (do you think 50 dex will be enough to keep fumbles low?)

    Does 240 str/100 foc seem like a good number to boost the damage of Fire Bash + Emberquake?
  • Stox wrote:
    Wow, very nice job Wonka! I was looking for something like this.

    Question: Did Flamehammer w/ a Charge (3X splinters on a single tgt) seem to do more damage than Emberquake (with Fissure)?? I can see the numbers, but without seeing how Emberquake works I'm kind of skeptical of changing into this build.

    I'm thinking of trying this [LINK DELETED] build.

    I'm thinking about using Autoattack as my default Charge builder (do you think 50 dex will be enough to keep fumbles low?)

    Does 240 str/100 foc seem like a good number to boost the damage of Fire Bash + Emberquake?

    I would personally suggest investing into a charge builder. Auto attack generates charge based on damage and when physical resistances skyrocket on monsters, you're going to see very little gain.

    Flame Hammer with a charge (2 additional splinters), will generate 9 splinters at max rank, emberquake generates 8 naturally. Using the two abilities, I find that the homing mechanism on Emberquake is much more aggressive than the 'splash' feel that Flame Hammer produces. Personally I like the graphic effect more on flame hammer, however, I don't think its homing mechanic is better than Emberquake's.
  • StoxStox Posts: 43
    Ah, cool.

    So, functionally, Emberquake hits targets better. Kind of how like Glaives auto-tracks tgts. and Shadow Shot just misses half it's splinters. Good to know, thx.


    Also, I would like to know, Does Sword and Board increase Emberquakes dmg? That is confusing if it does.
  • rttlprttlp Posts: 48
    I tried to do the same thing but couldn't figure out the items to do it with (don't even have a single lv 100 character w/o console yet) so I had to discontinue the project.

    What items would you recommend i use for this?
  • If you want to try and replicate the results, I've listed the gear with links to the armory. If you click on each individual item, on the right hand side of the screen (in a box listing the item details) it will give you the code to generate the item in game once console is up. To do this, type item code (where code is the code of the item) and press enter.

    For the actual character, type levelup 100 which will give you 495 stat points (assuming you made a friend character) and then type skillpoints 300 or whatever number you desire to test out whatever combo you wish.

    Let me know how the results go, like I said earlier I'm not convinced on how these abilities work most of the time. I've got a feeling we're going to find inconsistencies between testers and will need to figure out the problem.
  • Stox wrote:
    Ah, cool.

    So, functionally, Emberquake hits targets better. Kind of how like Glaives auto-tracks tgts. and Shadow Shot just misses half it's splinters. Good to know, thx.


    Also, I would like to know, Does Sword and Board increase Emberquakes dmg? That is confusing if it does.

    Yes it does, despite what the tool tip says, Sword and Board adds to your total weapon damage which in turn adds to the amount Emberquake and Flame Hammer derive their numbers from. These abilities use an 'x% weapon damage mechanic' to formulate a part of their damage. If you bring up your character panel and watch the weapon damage area, you'll see it increase with each point you put into sword and board. The thing that was strange to me was the generous increase in the amount of damage both these abilities received from maxing Sword and Board. Old Master Q has 242ish armor on it, 90% of that being 217.80. If you look at the before and after damage with regards to Sword and board, you'd be amazed how much the damage fluctuated with its addition. Again, this leaves me questioning the math and results of each of these abilities, the tool tips are not clear enough to explain what is happening precisely.
  • Wonka11 wrote:
    Stox wrote:
    Ah, cool.

    So, functionally, Emberquake hits targets better. Kind of how like Glaives auto-tracks tgts. and Shadow Shot just misses half it's splinters. Good to know, thx.


    Also, I would like to know, Does Sword and Board increase Emberquakes dmg? That is confusing if it does.

    Yes it does, despite what the tool tip says, Sword and Board adds to your total weapon damage which in turn adds to the amount Emberquake and Flame Hammer derive their numbers from. These abilities use an 'x% weapon damage mechanic' to formulate a part of their damage. If you bring up your character panel and watch the weapon damage area, you'll see it increase with each point you put into sword and board. The thing that was strange to me was the generous increase in the amount of damage both these abilities received from maxing Sword and Board. Old Master Q has 242ish armor on it, 90% of that being 217.80. If you look at the before and after damage with regards to Sword and board, you'd be amazed how much the damage fluctuated with its addition. Again, this leaves me questioning the math and results of each of these abilities, the tool tips are not clear enough to explain what is happening precisely.

    Yes, I was extremely surprised at that result you posted. It seems you missed my last post in this thread, I was asking for some clarification on the numbers. If you could, I'd really appreciate if you could answer them. :) I guess it leaves me wondering what the numbers would look like if you didn't use sword and board - OR - if those numbers posted for the +100 focus/str/focus where without sword and board..?

    Thank you for clarifying how to get the exact armor/items you where using - I couldn't figure that out. Where did you do these tests at, and how exactly where you getting the numbers? Was it from the combat log, or where you eyeballing the dmg numbers on the test dummy? Thanks!
  • CryswarCryswar Posts: 171
    Wonka11 wrote:
    Stox wrote:
    Ah, cool.

    So, functionally, Emberquake hits targets better. Kind of how like Glaives auto-tracks tgts. and Shadow Shot just misses half it's splinters. Good to know, thx.


    Also, I would like to know, Does Sword and Board increase Emberquakes dmg? That is confusing if it does.

    Yes it does, despite what the tool tip says, Sword and Board adds to your total weapon damage which in turn adds to the amount Emberquake and Flame Hammer derive their numbers from. These abilities use an 'x% weapon damage mechanic' to formulate a part of their damage. If you bring up your character panel and watch the weapon damage area, you'll see it increase with each point you put into sword and board. The thing that was strange to me was the generous increase in the amount of damage both these abilities received from maxing Sword and Board. Old Master Q has 242ish armor on it, 90% of that being 217.80. If you look at the before and after damage with regards to Sword and board, you'd be amazed how much the damage fluctuated with its addition. Again, this leaves me questioning the math and results of each of these abilities, the tool tips are not clear enough to explain what is happening precisely.
    Fast attacking weapons will get HUGE benefits from a flat damage increase - +200 damage on a .64 aspd weapon is a lot more of a DPS boost than +200 on a 1.44 aspd weapon.

    Dunno if that would make for the entire change but just in general it makes sense that SnB's flat damage boost would do a lot for a fast weapon. 217.8 flat damage on a .64 weapon is more like a 340 (ish) DPS boost, multiplied by the ability's damage modifier, times however many actual shards there are...
    MATHEMAGICAL.
  • Hey,
    thanks for the testing. However I got one small favor to ask - could you try putting 100 strength in again? Because to me it seems like every time you added strength, flame hammer DPS skyrocketed. Which would absolutely make sense, considering that it gets more % weapon DPS than emberquake.

    If both spells get the % weapon DPS on their splinters, flame hammer would ultimately beat emberquake, providing you add enough strength/weapon dmg.
  • I'm frapsing two different stat builds right now. I'll let people watch them since my eyes are bad and without a combat log its also hard to see every attack.

    The first goes up to 400 Strength (120 from gear, 300 from stats). I did not go beyond this because it is unrealistic to invest anymore points and still remain 'tanky' in a realistic build as you get only 495 stat points total to allocate and you're already burning through 300 of them leaving a remaining 195 for Stamina and Focus/Dexterity.

    The second one will be a Strength and Focus video at a 2:1 ratio stat wise with gear included.

    Undecided if I'll make a third at a 2:2 ratio of Strength and Focus; I'm leaning towards no since this would again leave very few points for Stamina in a realistic build.
  • Strength only video test posted. Keep in mind that the final tests adds more Strength than you can allocate without reducing your survivability from lack of Vitality.
  • Strength / Focus Test Uploaded at 2:1 ratio.

    Same skills and armor set as last time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_p4WJuD ... e=youtu.be
  • thanks for the video OP! :D

    I observed that flame hammer's initial damage is a lot higher than emberquake's. Although splinter damage of flame hammer is considerably lower than emberquake. Does this mean that splinters from flame hammer doesn't benefit from fire and spark?
  • Either that or the additional fire damage on Emberquake's tiers scales a lot better with fire damage.
  • How would this compare against a 2H weapon build? Theoretically, if I want to go for a pure DPS build, is Sword and Board better DPS than a 2H build?
  • mackster wrote:
    How would this compare against a 2H weapon build? Theoretically, if I want to go for a pure DPS build, is Sword and Board better DPS than a 2H build?

    I was thinking about that too. I think instead of going for sword and board I might go for heavy lifting since the increase attack speed increases weapon dps. (as stated here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=36668)
  • Are you just going to use a 2h instead of a 1h then?
  • I think I am. Although, I'm not sure how it would fare in elite mode.
  • I guess the question is which build can give you the maximum DPS, 2H vs. 1H + Shield. If 1H + Shield gives comparable damage then it is the obvious choice for the added defense. From looking around the database, the difference in DPS between 2H and 1H doesn't seem that high so it would fall to whether Heavy Lifting or Sword and Board provides more of a DPS bonus.
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