Mad Genius Hybrid Build

EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
edited March 2016 in Outlander Discussions
I know I told some people I was going to post my shootylander build next, but I came upon something so utterly bizarre in my testing that I had to make a build around it. I have found the Holy Grail of Outlander builds; a hybrid style combining the damage of a heavy Focus build with the ability to use weapon skills like Chaos Burst, Shadowshot, and Poison Burst. A lot of people who don't know what they're doing have attempted this sort of thing. They split their points between Strength and Focus and end up worthless as monster armor outstrips their ability to do damage. But I have found something that makes it possible for you to do everything and not **** at all of it in the process. I call it the Mad Genius build.

The key discovery that makes this work is in how skill damage is calculated from your weapons when dual-wielding. Damage is based entirely on the weapon in your right hand, even if the skill you want to use requires a different type of weapon. So long as you have that weapon in your left hand, you can use the skill and it will calculate the damage using the right-hand weapon. Skills like Chaos Burst and Shadowshot scale damage off of your weapon and require you to have a gun, which means that under normal circumstances you'd need to pump your Strength like crazy to get anything decent out of them (or use a purely elemental weapon and pump Focus, but those are extremely rare). Furthermore, high level guns require a ridiculous amount of Dexterity to use, and that much Dexterity is a big hindrance in your ability to kill things. So normally, weapon skills are the sole purview of those sad little Str/Dex split Outlanders that don't want to make a Focus/Glaive build like everyone else but have to deal with the mechanical inferiority of a high Dex requirement or sub-par weapons. But no longer!

Here's what you do: pump Focus like crazy, like you would if you were running a Glaive build. You can actually throw glaives just like everyone else, but that's not what makes this build special. Get the highest damage wand you can find and equip it in your right hand. Poison is better than other elemental types due to Master of the Elements. This is what the game will use to calculate damage. In your left hand, equip a pistol. It doesn't have to do any damage because you will never shoot it and the game will never look at it for a skill damage calculation. Use the pistol you started with for extra style points, or just get something with useful modifiers on it, but remember that damage is irrelevant. Now that you have a pistol in one hand, you can use weapon skills that calculate damage based on your wand with your Focus stat, including Master of the Elements even for attack skills that are purely weapon-DPS dependent like Chaos Burst.

Here's how the bonuses break down with the Mad Genius vs a traditional Strength-based weapon build. A Strength build using pistols would have Akimbo and Long Range Mastery, for a total bonus of +60% to damage when dual wielding. Unfortunately, they can't use decent weapons at the mid-tier range because they require a lot more Dex than is useful for anything except equipping guns. So they use lower-level weapons instead, or they try to keep up with increasing Dex requirements and accidentally cripple themselves for good. The Mad Genius doesn't have this problem; his points are going into Focus, which lets him equip the best wands he can find, and he gets +30% or +60% to his damage, depending on the type of elemental wand he's using. By level 50, he can easily handle level 90 artifact wands. If you don't have a poison wand, you'll have smaller damage modifiers than you would have had if you were using pistols, but the difference here is easily made up for by the fact that you can use any wand you find and shootylanders have to settle for the stuff they can equip based on their level, and they have to split their stats between "equip better stuff" and "do damage with it." You don't have to do this, so even without a poison wand you're going to have them beat on damage.

There's more to it than this, though. Wands do elemental damage, usually several types, that can proc from each attack to mess with your enemies in various ways. Freezing, poison, ignite, etc. Skills like Chaos Burst fire a bunch of shots and hit huge groups, so those random elemental effects are going to be popping up all over the place. Skills like Poison Burst trigger off of your gun-style attacks, since you have points in Master of the Elements like a typical glaive-chucker, but you can proc Poison Burst a lot more easily than a shootylander since you can actually do respectable damage to large groups. If a typical glaive-chucker wants to trigger a Poison Burst, he needs to autoattack something like a chump. The Mad Genius doesn't have to.

A quick point on the damage calculation, though. Skills that are based off of weapon DPS that don't do a specific type of damage (Chaos Burst, Glaive Sweep, Rune Vault, and Shadowshot) use whatever damage modifiers you get from your weapon with Master of the Elements. Skills that are based off of your weapon but do a specific damage type use whatever modifiers are appropriate for that damage type, so Venomous Hail gets +60%, but Flaming Glaives only gets +30% even if you had a pure poison weapon to start with.

Sadly, there is one skill (and only one) that doesn't work with the Mad Genius: Rapid Fire. For some reason, Rapid Fire doesn't work if you have a wand in the right hand and a pistol in the left. It would've been incredible, but I guess you can't have everything. Instead, you get everything except Rapid Fire. On the bright side, if you pick up an elemental shotgun you can use, you've already got the perfect stat and skill allocation to do whatever you want with it. What makes this build really special and unique among every other build out there is that there are no skills that **** for you. Normally, you have a selection of Focus skills that you'd pick from if you were a Focus build, and physical skills if you're running a Strength build, plus some non-attribute dependent skills that work for everybody. The Mad Genius can choose from any skill on the list, except for Rapid Fire. With all that said, here's my version of the Mad Genius with the full 131 points.

Rune Vault - 5
Chaos Burst - 15
Cursed Daggers - 15
Venomous Hail - 10
Glaive Throw - 5
Tangling Shot - 1
Dodge Mastery - 15
Poison Burst - 15
Share the Wealth - 15
Repulsion Hex - 10
Stone Hex - 10
Master of the Elements - 15

By the late stages of my career, I might swap out Chaos Burst for ten points in Rapid Fire and five more in Venomous Hail once a get a nice elemental shotgun like Earth's Roar, which you can select as the new game+ final boss quest reward at level 100. We'll see.
Trust me, I've checked.
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Comments

  • This deserves a bump for being awesome and non-obvious.

    Mildly off topic though...

    1) Have you noticed mana capping at 646 mana from focus? I have 14 +mana gear but I do have 1886 focus... still only 660 mana.
    2) Does the increase in magic damage from focus and (for example) +% poison damage apply additive or multiplicative? With 943% magic damage from focus, 184% poison from gear, and 414% crit damage I'm not seeing what I would have expected. I thought I had seen you post something about this prior but I can't find it.
  • If you ask me, this is a bug.

    If a skill requires a "bow, crossbow, shotgonne, or pistol", and its damage is weapon dps-dependent, common sense (for me, at least) dictates that the damage should be calculated based on the weapon required for the skill to work. Or if you dual wield pistols, based on the average dps of the pistols, taking into consideration how your execute chance increases your dps.

    I would really like to hear the opinion of one of the Runic Games staff member about this.
    Empyrean wrote:
    Do you think I'm some sort of literary forensic scientist? If not, why are you showing me the scene of this crime against the English language and expecting me to piece together what took place?
  • naudsnauds Posts: 60
    is poison burst un bugged?

    this is pretty brilliant, so what does your skill usage rotation look like?
  • brophogbrophog Posts: 128
    Ksajal wrote:
    If you ask me, this is a bug.

    If a skill requires a "bow, crossbow, shotgonne, or pistol", and its damage is weapon dps-dependent, common sense (for me, at least) dictates that the damage should be calculated based on the weapon required for the skill to work. Or if you dual wield pistols, based on the average dps of the pistols, taking into consideration how your execute chance increases your dps.

    I would really like to hear the opinion of one of the Runic Games staff member about this.

    Staff never seems to come into the class forums, but if you put the link from these forums into the support forums, like I did with the Poison Burst discussion, then they tend to see it much better.

    As to whether it is a bug, I don't know. TL1 allowed you to run with two disparate weapons, too. Not uncommon to see something like a melee/pistol setup there. It's certainly 'cheesy' to steal parlance from other games.
  • KFPKFP Posts: 142
    Yea, I'd say the fact that this build even works is a bug.
    Still really neat nonetheless.
  • Ksajal wrote:
    If you ask me, this is a bug.
    Whether it's a bug or a feature, this is your one shot at playing with those gun-dependent skills without having to gimp yourself or hit the level cap so you can equip level-appropriate guns. Unless they make it so you can add your Dex to the ranged damage calculation the way you can add Strength (and they really should), this is your way around it.
    nauds wrote:
    is poison burst un bugged?
    Yeah, they fixed it a couple days ago. It triggers properly at any range with any skill that is intended to do so. Glaives don't work with it and they aren't supposed to.
    Kadath128 wrote:
    1) Have you noticed mana capping at 646 mana from focus? I have 14 +mana gear but I do have 1886 focus... still only 660 mana.
    I haven't noticed this, but I haven't had any characters running around with close to two thousand Focus. Good grief, was that console-spawned gear or what?
    Kadath128 wrote:
    2) Does the increase in magic damage from focus and (for example) +% poison damage apply additive or multiplicative? With 943% magic damage from focus, 184% poison from gear, and 414% crit damage I'm not seeing what I would have expected. I thought I had seen you post something about this prior but I can't find it.
    I hadn't tested this specifically, but now that you asked I did a few trials. The +% poison damage stuff applies as an additive modifier to your Focus. A belt that increases poison damage by +50% boosted the damage done by Venomous Hail by exactly the same amount as having another 100 Focus did. That makes them rather weak compared to the attribute buffs you see flying around.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • naudsnauds Posts: 60
    how do you work in Chaos Burst, if Glaive throw is your primary?
  • They do different things. Chaos Burst hits groups of enemies and triggers Poison Burst. In tight spaces, it can bounce off of walls and hit enemies multiple times. It also triggers any elemental effects you have on your weapon, so enemies will be randomly set on fire, frozen, or shocked by it if you have the appropriate damage type on your wand. Also, effects that trigger "on hit" on your wand will have a chance to take effect for each enemy that is hit by each projectile; something that only triggers 10% of the time is virtually guaranteed to happen if you fire it into a crowd.

    As a general rule, lead with Cursed Daggers to get the DoT going, then follow up with Chaos Burst. You could also use Shadowshot against large enemies in clear areas for the huge damage it can deal, while relying on Cursed Daggers and Glaive Throw to handle groups. You've got options, and if they ever nerf Glaive Their (and they should, really) you've still got other decent attacks to fall back on.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • may i know how do u allocate stats? just pump into focus as in all 5 into focus or separate a little like 2 dex 2 focus and 1 int?
  • am3amzar wrote:
    may i know how do u allocate stats? just pump into focus as in all 5 into focus or separate a little like 2 dex 2 focus and 1 int?
    Focus like crazy for at least the first 20 levels. You can split it up a bit after that until you've got 110 Dex. That'll get your base dodge and crit rate up to about 20% or so. I have no idea what "int" is.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Empyrean wrote:
    am3amzar wrote:
    may i know how do u allocate stats? just pump into focus as in all 5 into focus or separate a little like 2 dex 2 focus and 1 int?
    Focus like crazy for at least the first 20 levels. You can split it up a bit after that until you've got 110 Dex. That'll get your base dodge and crit rate up to about 20% or so. I have no idea what "int" is.

    mistake. its vit. or u didnt up any?
  • Not on this build. Vitality makes more sense if you can run a shield with your build. With this one, that is not an option.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Empyrean wrote:
    Kadath128 wrote:
    1) Have you noticed mana capping at 646 mana from focus? I have 14 +mana gear but I do have 1886 focus... still only 660 mana.
    I haven't noticed this, but I haven't had any characters running around with close to two thousand Focus. Good grief, was that console-spawned gear or what?
    Kadath128 wrote:
    2) Does the increase in magic damage from focus and (for example) +% poison damage apply additive or multiplicative? With 943% magic damage from focus, 184% poison from gear, and 414% crit damage I'm not seeing what I would have expected. I thought I had seen you post something about this prior but I can't find it.
    I hadn't tested this specifically, but now that you asked I did a few trials. The +% poison damage stuff applies as an additive modifier to your Focus. A belt that increases poison damage by +50% boosted the damage done by Venomous Hail by exactly the same amount as having another 100 Focus did. That makes them rather weak compared to the attribute buffs you see flying around.

    Yeah console gear. I was looking into caps. I started pretty late so I didn't get to do much but I noticed that mana cap and that my damage didn't really change much the last several hundred focus. However I was also just spamming glaive and not a more consistent damage ability like I should have been so I'm likely entirely incorrect. I did however notice getting several +120k white hits while never getting a critical over 380k, at 414% critical damage.
  • Its very interesting, and it does seem to be the most viable method of using the various gun skills. sadly, the pistol is largely cosmetic, and you are still playing a Focus based build...

    And yeah, its likely a bug. a cool one though, that I hope doesn't get changed too soon. It kinda goes with the guns and magic thing.
    "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cathulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"
    Shadowshot Outlander: A "Sniper" Guide *Elite NG+++*
  • mad genius indeed..
    a question though
    wouldn't a pistols affixes like crit, crit dmg, %ele dmg, %to all dmg and bleed also apply?
  • If they ever make member moderators or admins you should be the one for the outlander fourm
    Excellent find
    This is now a true outlander
    skilled in both gunslinging and magic
  • mad genius indeed..
    a question though
    wouldn't a pistols affixes like crit, crit dmg, %ele dmg, %to all dmg and bleed also apply?
    The first three would apply from the pistol, although bleed would not. If you have a bleed effect on the wand it would apply, though.
    If they ever make member moderators or admins you should be the one for the outlander fourm
    Excellent find
    This is now a true outlander
    skilled in both gunslinging and magic
    Hahaha, thanks. I'd love to work for Runic Games, but the public side of things probably wouldn't be my best spot. I'm just a little too impolite to be a good public representative of the company. QA, copy editing (I'm annoyed that I found a pair of pants in the "Planislord" set) or playing with the crunchy side of combat systems, though? I'd love it. I'm working on devising my own d20 system in my spare time based on the Open Game License, so game mechanics are sort of my thing.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Empyrean wrote:
    game mechanics are sort of my thing.

    Board games are hitting a huge niche comeback lately, especially with kickstarter cloudfunding. Just saying... not that I am currently doing that.
  • Empyrean wrote:
    mad genius indeed..
    a question though
    wouldn't a pistols affixes like crit, crit dmg, %ele dmg, %to all dmg and bleed also apply?
    The first three would apply from the pistol, although bleed would not. If you have a bleed effect on the wand it would apply, though.
    If they ever make member moderators or admins you should be the one for the outlander fourm
    Excellent find
    This is now a true outlander
    skilled in both gunslinging and magic
    Hahaha, thanks. I'd love to work for Runic Games, but the public side of things probably wouldn't be my best spot. I'm just a little too impolite to be a good public representative of the company. QA, copy editing (I'm annoyed that I found a pair of pants in the "Planislord" set) or playing with the crunchy side of combat systems, though? I'd love it. I'm working on devising my own d20 system in my spare time based on the Open Game License, so game mechanics are sort of my thing.

    If you know how to program there are companies hiring. If you're genuinely interested send me a PM. I don't have an in at Runic, but I know a few other gaming companies you might be interested in.
  • With the left and right hand thing it's the characters right and left? Opposite of what I'm looking at (my right and left)? Correct?
  • Spectear wrote:
    If you know how to program there are companies hiring. If you're genuinely interested send me a PM. I don't have an in at Runic, but I know a few other gaming companies you might be interested in.
    While I can find my way around other people's code (10+ years modding will do that) I wouldn't list my programming skills as much of a job asset. Design, absolutely. Programming from scratch, less so. I also juggle, play the piano, studied economics in college, and compose technically difficult poetry for comedy with relative ease.

    Clickety-clickety
    Glaive-throwing Outlander
    Aiming is optional
    Hits like a truck

    Marksmen are burdened with
    Unsatisfactory
    Damage per second and
    Usually ****

    If you know anyone who would be interested in this particular skill set, shoot me a PM.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • SaintSatan wrote:
    With the left and right hand thing it's the characters right and left? Opposite of what I'm looking at (my right and left)? Correct?
    Correct. The weapon in your character's right hand is the one that matters.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Bumping because I wonder if this will be fixed. Would like a Runic post to confirm if this is going to stay as intended or be changed to being a glitch/exploit.
  • I find this a very interesting build. I dont really like the Glaive Outlander eventho its, i guess, the most powerfull build out there.

    Do you put any points in DEX? Or go pure Focus? Slowly get DEX too 100 (109?) while pumping Focus?

    I starting a new Outlander because i came to the conclusion that first Outlander (lvl 34) is pretty ****, focused too much on STR/DEX and going for lots of Underlings. Sure, at points i have like 10/15 underlings running around killing everything in their path but another Bane Breath on a pack of enemies makes the underlings that already spawned before go *splat*. So i guess there is a max. number of underlings you can have with you at all times, which is too bad. What is the limit anyway? Does anyone know?
  • Insane build dude, so funny and effective, better than Glaive Throw spam

    Thanks a lot! :D

    Any suggestion for some Wand in special?
  • the pistol Cold Vengeance (LVL 62 or 160 Dex)would be great for the off hand pistol with its +50% poison dmg. Good wands to lvl/mid-game with? thoughts on end game eqs? I love this weird build XD thanks
  • SamaWoodo wrote:
    Insane build dude, so funny and effective, better than Glaive Throw spam

    Thanks a lot! :D

    Any suggestion for some Wand in special?
    If you can get one, the [LINK DELETED] will give you very impressive damage per second to base other skills off of, and casts Fire Storm every time you hit something with it (including weapon skills) although only once per cast. But hey; one free Fire Storm with every skill is pretty handy. :)
    PenThief wrote:
    the pistol Cold Vengeance (LVL 62 or 160 Dex)would be great for the off hand pistol with its +50% poison dmg. Good wands to lvl/mid-game with? thoughts on end game eqs? I love this weird build XD thanks
    Random drops are hard to predict. Go for the higher damage wand after taking Master of the Elements into account (poison wands are better), unless a slightly lower damage wand has really good modifiers or something. Your weapon skills are based off of the wand's damage, so that's of top importance.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • after trying out this build, I have to say, it is probably the most overpowered build the outlander has.
  • So, do you put any points in DEX? Or go pure Focus? Slowly get DEX too 100 (109?) while pumping Focus?
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Necris wrote:
    So, do you put any points in DEX? Or go pure Focus? Slowly get DEX too 100 (109?) while pumping Focus?
    Totally up to you. you can go 5:0, 4:1, 3:2 or 50:50 focus:dex. Of course, just make sure that at the end you get 110 dex. However, I recommend either 50:50 or 3:2 focus:dex.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
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