Maybe a problem with Weapon DPS scaling skills?

BeannaBeanna Posts: 17
edited October 2012 in TL2 General Discussions
Hello,

I just made that topic to warn the staff about some bad scaling on Engineers and Outlanders skills... Don't know if I should have made that topic on the support forum or here though.

Actually we just discovered after many many tests with lvl 100 toons that some skills as Emberquake and Glaive Throw, which are doing magic damages, are just far more powerful than every other "Weapon DPS" based skills. Plus, those skills are scaling better on Focus than Strenght or Dexterity which leads us to play spell casters classes focusing on +% magic damages and Focus instead of our statistics of predilection. In the end, every class is a wannabe-Embermage and Focus is the only interesting stat in the game...

Isn't there a little mistake?
When I choosed to play a strong melee class like Engineer, using 2 handed heavy maces, I was planning on building a Strenght-based character with heavy armors, leaping into the fight, smashing faces with my Flame Hammer. At the end of the journey, I realize that my last and most anticipated skill, the Emberquake, has a poor scaling on Weapon DPS, meaning my Strenght will poorly affect my damages and benefits more from Focus and +% fire damage.
That is a little disappointing. But ok, I will just not utilize that spell I guess... Well, the fact is, Emberquake deals far more damages than Flame Hammer, and by far more I mean faaaaaaaaar more, maybe because it is the last unlocked spell, I don't know. The problem is, I want to use Emberquake, I like this spell, it looks cool. I waited 42 levels for it. But this spell is just not built right.
Right now the most powerful Engineer build is using a Staff and puting almost every stat point into Focus to improve Emberquake's damages. Is it working as intended? Did Runic Games wanted the Engineer class to look like a Mage?

Same goes for the Outlander. I am not playing the class myself but I read the class forum after a friend of mines told me about that weird Glaive scaling to note that Outlanders have just the same problem.
Outlander's skills scale poorly on Weapon DPS while the most powerful skill of the class is Glaive Throw, a magic spell, leading Outlanders to put every single stat points into Focus to improve elemental damages. Meh. Another failed Mage?

I am not making this thread to "whine" so please don't answer aggressively. I just think there is a big class-design problem right now and I think it is important to inform the staff about this issue in order to work on a possible fix for those two classes, for them to be played as intended, with physical stats as I assume they should be. Or maybe I am assuming wrong, in which case I would like to be informed if those spells are working as intended.

Thank you very much for your time and your very pleasant game.
«1

Comments

  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    Interesting. I only have an Embermage so I hadn't paid attention, but it does seem like skills for classes you'd expect to be martial-based actually deal more elemental damage than they do physical. It would be more advantageous to pump Focus than Str...
    Have a question about game mechanics? Start here.
    Everything you ever wanted to know about Embermage skills.
    Wondering if you should pick Flame Hammer or Emberquake? This is for you.
  • oneproductoneproduct Posts: 11
    edited September 2012
    I very much agree with you. The best spells in the game should be those that are based off weapon damage. The way it is now, when everyone reaches level 100, they can be equally powerful if they have the same stats and spells, which is something they have full control over. The one thing they don't have control over, and probably the main reason to play a game like this, is gear. People with the best weapons and supporting gear should do the most damage, but in order for this to happen the spells based off weapon damage need to be the best ones when you have sufficient gear. (edit: I realized that this contradicts my second paragraph. I suppose that ideally both weapon based and non-weapon based skills should be roughly similar if you have the appropriate gear modifiers to support them, as you can find very high level gear that is more suitable to helping non-weapon based skills quite well)

    I'm also not too fond of the way that skills are unlocked. For example, if you want to play a focus based engineer, you have to wait a long time to get to emberquake. If you want to play a strength based engineer, you don't even want to put points in emberquake once you finally unlock it, which feels unrewarding. Skills should not be more powerful than each other, they should simply provide different options (plus, you can control how powerful a spell is by limiting how many points you can put into it depending on your level, which they already do). If all these spells are somewhat equal in strength/utility, there is no need for them to be locked by level. If the spells are not equal in strength/utility, you end up with useless spells that nobody wants to use, and which they don't really have a way to remove points out of, which makes the leveling up experience worse since you don't want to spend any skill points.
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    Wow, I just did some pretty rudimentry tests with the console, and the more i delve into these topics the more I am convinced that this game has some really wierd setups for damage.

    Really boggles my mind to be honest.

    level 100, 15 pnts in magma spear... no weapon equipped.

    no added stats, magma Spear hits for like 15 dmg, ticks for 1700
    add 495 focus, spear hits for 15 dmg, ticks for 4700 damage
    remove focus, add 495 str, spear hits for 1200, ticks for 2500

    level 100, 15 pnts in magma spear, Dragonspine staff equipped (physical, fire, electric 685 dps) [LINK DELETED]

    no added stats, magma spear hits for 519, ticks for 1700
    add 495 focus, spear hits for 1590, ticks for 5900
    remove focus, add 495 strength, spear hits for 1300, ticks for 3800

    level 100, 15 pnts in magma spear, Dragonstaff staff equipped (fire, ice, electrical, poison 651 dps) [LINK DELETED]

    no added stats, magma spear hits for 390 dmg, ticks for 1700
    add 495 focus, spear hits for 1200+, ticks for 5900
    remove focus, add 495 strength, spear hits for 1200, ticks for either 1700 or 2500

    (((( TICKS ARE MOST COMMON TICKING, they generally had 3 levels they ticked on, 1700, 2500, 3800 for the last last test there, but 1700/2500 was evenly most common.. so in all cases i only am reporting the MOST common tick out of 10 or so applications ))))

    something to note

    level 100, 15 pnts in Prismatic Bolt, no weapon equiped.

    no added stats, bolt hits for 7800 or 10000ish with repeat hits.
    add 495 focus, bolt hits for 24000, or 31000 most commonly with repeat hits. criticals in the mid 30000, usually.
    remove focus add str, hits for 7800 or 10000ish with repeat hits. criticals in the 13000 range usually.
    (using a staff altered the outcome by approx 1000 dmg in all cases due to something inherent in the staff itself, not the staffs dps.) so i won't bother posting those results for prismatic bolt.
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    These tests have convinced me, when I work on my complete conversion mod for TL2 I am basing every single skill off of Weapon dps, and nothing will have a 'scales as levels' option. As one of the posters above me state, one of the things about games like this is that GEAR needs to feel like it is important.

    the thing is, you can be UTTERLY naked and your SPELLS that do not run off of weapondps have a variance so small, that gear is next to meaningless for their dps out put
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    Salan wrote:

    level 100, 15 pnts in magma spear, Dragonspine staff equipped (physical, fire, electric 685 dps) [LINK DELETED]

    no added stats, magma spear hits for 519, ticks for 1700
    add 495 focus, spear hits for 1590, ticks for 5900
    remove focus, add 495 strength, spear hits for 1300, ticks for 3800


    vs



    level 100, 15 pnts in Prismatic Bolt, no weapon equiped.

    no added stats, bolt hits for 7800 or 10000ish with repeat hits.
    add 495 focus, bolt hits for 24000, or 31000 most commonly with repeat hits. criticals in the mid 30000, usually.
    remove focus add str, hits for 7800 or 10000ish with repeat hits. criticals in the 13000 range usually.
    (using a staff altered the outcome by approx 1000 dmg in all cases due to something inherent in the staff itself, not the staffs dps.) so i won't bother posting those results for prismatic bolt.


    this is what the OP is talking about.

    Spells seem to disregard gear, WeaponDPS skills seem to be fully gear dependent. having a mix of both means SPELLS > WeaponDPS skills if you simply put focus over any other stat.
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • I feel this way too when I play my engineer, although now it is more aware to me than before. I was planning on playing a melee-in-your-face type of character by putting points into strength, but then I started to stray a bit and put more emphasis on focus and instead of looking for physical damage stat on armor/weapon, I went for %fire damage.

    and now that I think of it, he seems like a melee-mage, it's ok I guess, just more aware of it now.
  • KareshiKraiseKareshiKraise Posts: 181
    edited September 2012
    I'd like to see a Staff posting here

    this needs some adjustment

    Whenever an engineer decides to go the 2H road, it becomes clear that he is going to pump Str+dex+vit into his stats

    we could try pm'in some yellows, they have been paying a lot of attention lately
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    ACTUALLY, i made a bit of a fallacy which I should correct, but don't have the time to bother atm, to busy playing ;)

    The WEAPONDPS skills, i tested ONLY with a staff, when in fact I should ahve fully geared, fully enchanted/gemmed all my gear and THEN saw the numbers, I am SURE they would have been higher then they were


    BUT the main thing to point out, NO STATS, vs FOCUS was 3x the dmg out put for with staff weapondps skill and 3x for no stats/focus for spell.

    they seem to scale close to the same amount, just one is very very simply based on one stat, the rest on a variable of gear, making the focus based spells inherently easier to be more powerful with.
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    I'd like to see a Staff posting here

    this needs some adjustment

    Whenever an engineer decides to go the 2H road, it becomes clear that he is going to pump Str+dex+vit into his stats

    we could try pm'in some yellows, they have been paying a lot of attention lately


    MMM they are slightly selective on what they respond to thou, or at least takes time in responding to things, i have pm'd a few questions that have been posted here, with links to the forums themselves and so far have had no response from any of them, including the community manager themself... They gotta be pretty busy atm, hopefully they continue answering these questions at some point
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • Then i'm going to make sure that this thread is going to live enough for it to be answered
  • herionzherionz Posts: 127
    First of anything I would want to say that I appreciate the effort you might have put onto testing those things, and I don't want to say otherwise but you are missing a big point here (seems that most of you are).

    As a science related person you have to know that there's always a difference (and sometimes it's really important) between a theoretical value or design and how it really works in reality or when you experiment. This test are cool but they aren't realistic and I will tell you why.

    The first reason is that if you try to build a character with 500 focus and you play **** elite 6 man parties you will be deleted, in a second. Even if you manage to survive long enough, you have near 0 chance to even do NG+ (unless there's some item or gear that reduces all incoming damage in 100% or near that).

    Second reason is about why elemental damage scale much more than with weapons, for supporting my statement I'll tell you my experience while playing HC elite with embermage and berserker. Focus and strength both reach the same increasing bonus it seems, which is 250% of the related things to each other (weapon damage or elemental damage/magical weapons) and since some skills tend to have a high flat damage associated with level scaling and most of them done during a certain time, focus increases them really well (because the number is already huge). But what happens with strength? Well strength also increases critical damage (I know that also focus increases execute change, but I'm going to just ignore it since doesn't have a meaning here) and as a berserker, when in rage mode, using a claw that hit for 80 damage on a champion, I entered rage mode (100%) crit, and using howl + raze I crit for 700 damage, that's near 10x more damage, also don't forget that my normal autoattacks then crit for 400. So 5x times more, and that's with only 29 points in STR since I have to put most of them (if not all) in VIT to survive.

    Still going with the example, with my embermage that has 79 focus and over 100 VIT deals huge amounts of damage, outputting my DPS with the berserker by far, clearing groups of monsters in seconds. But then I reach a boss, and I have to be moving since if I get 3 hits I can die. So I spend a lot of time moving, then it's why I think, it's great that skills like magma spear leave a burning that deals so much damage, or I will be screwed. But what does it happend with my berzerker? With similar stats and gear as my mage, I can just sit there below the champ or boss and crit him to death with minimal effort. For instance yesterday I did "Regent" with both of them alone, and it took me 5 times less with the berzerker than with the mage, why? Because with the mage I have to move around and be more careful, and can't be attacking so easily, totally opposite to the berserker.

    Returning to your test, I could make a wand/shield berserker (staff not since you would be crushed sooner or later) and be viable with most of the skills, knowing also that berzerkers don't have that much flat elemental damage associated with skills, but okay I could do. But I doubt the damage difference and viability would vary much from other builds. Just would be different plays styles which is what I find amazing in this game, being able to make a mage with 2H weapons or cannon, it's priceless (it's just a weird example and don't know it's viability but it's just to show you the degree of liberty you have here).

    So yeah, a good weapon with a STR build and synergies with other skills in trees by each class have better utilities and will change the outcome of the battles, this is not a "root your char and damage game" and this is most important when you are playing in ****.

    Still I would be awesome to have seen some data you collected and how you tested it (was it in the training dummy or was with different monsters/champs in different difficulties and party sizes?) but anyway I like the effort people made around theory things, I opens some ideas for building different chars and testing them out.

    Have fun and keep on going!
  • paralleluniverseparalleluniverse Posts: 382
    edited September 2012
    Beanna wrote:
    Hello,

    I just made that topic to warn the staff about some bad scaling on Engineers and Outlanders skills... Don't know if I should have made that topic on the support forum or here though.

    Actually we just discovered after many many tests with lvl 100 toons that some skills as Emberquake and Glaive Throw, which are doing magic damages, are just far more powerful than every other "Weapon DPS" based skills. Plus, those skills are scaling better on Focus than Strenght or Dexterity which leads us to play spell casters classes focusing on +% magic damages and Focus instead of our statistics of predilection. In the end, every class is a wannabe-Embermage and Focus is the only interesting stat in the game...

    Isn't there a little mistake?
    When I choosed to play a strong melee class like Engineer, using 2 handed heavy maces, I was planning on building a Strenght-based character with heavy armors, leaping into the fight, smashing faces with my Flame Hammer. At the end of the journey, I realize that my last and most anticipated skill, the Emberquake, has a poor scaling on Weapon DPS, meaning my Strenght will poorly affect my damages and benefits more from Focus and +% fire damage.
    That is a little disappointing. But ok, I will just not utilize that spell I guess... Well, the fact is, Emberquake deals far more damages than Flame Hammer, and by far more I mean faaaaaaaaar more, maybe because it is the last unlocked spell, I don't know. The problem is, I want to use Emberquake, I like this spell, it looks cool. I waited 42 levels for it. But this spell is just not built right.
    Right now the most powerful Engineer build is using a Staff and puting almost every stat point into Focus to improve Emberquake's damages. Is it working as intended? Did Runic Games wanted the Engineer class to look like a Mage?

    Same goes for the Outlander. I am not playing the class myself but I read the class forum after a friend of mines told me about that weird Glaive scaling to note that Outlanders have just the same problem.
    Outlander's skills scale poorly on Weapon DPS while the most powerful skill of the class is Glaive Throw, a magic spell, leading Outlanders to put every single stat points into Focus to improve elemental damages. Meh. Another failed Mage?

    I am not making this thread to "whine" so please don't answer aggressively. I just think there is a big class-design problem right now and I think it is important to inform the staff about this issue in order to work on a possible fix for those two classes, for them to be played as intended, with physical stats as I assume they should be. Or maybe I am assuming wrong, in which case I would like to be informed if those spells are working as intended.

    Thank you very much for your time and your very pleasant game.
    It's obvious that this would happen given that focus scales with all magic damage, and basically all spells, even from melee classes, do magic damage.

    Emberquake was also massively overpowered in the beta. It's not in the description of the spell, but the fire is homing and can pass through the same enemy more than once. It makes flame hammer completely obsolete.

    Of course, this shouldn't be too surprising given that devs have stated that they have no interest in balance.

    If this spell justifiably gets nerfed and the problem you've stated gets addressed, expect massive amounts of QQ, similar to nerfs in D3.
  • ChthonChthon Posts: 1,855
    People saying "focus > all" annoy me.
    Strength and Focus have the same **** scales. Strength is better insofar as it bumps crit damage.
    Dex is interdependent with Strength and Focus, but you can just put points in Strength whenever Strength > Dex. (In other words, all this "Focus is better because you have to split Strength+Dex" is complete idiocy.)
    As far as just being a damage multiplier goes, if given the same base to start with, Strength+Dex (done properly) > Strength > Focus. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

    The correct question to be asking is this:
    Where can we find the highest base?

    Skills that scale with level tell you their base. Just console a junk character up to lvl 100 with 15 points in the skill.
    Skills that scale with weapons are a little harder. Take the multiplier from the skill at level 15 and the DPS value from the best possible weapon you can find.
    That should give you something that's roughly comparable as pre-attribute base damage over one hit.
    Is one of them drastically better than the other?
    (I honestly haven't had time to test this out. Prior to release, it was widely thought that the very best weapons would dramatically outpace level-scaling skills. I'm surprised to see so many people now claiming the opposite. I'm not sure (yet) if Runic misbalanced the game that badly or these people are just idiots. If it is a case of misbalance, the easy solution would be better weapons (or weaker level-scaled skills if you're into nerfs).)

    Two more concerns to keep in mind:
    1. Damage per hit does not always correlate with DPS. It's better to hit half as hard if you hit more than twice as often.* So, divide skill bases by their cast times. (Which are, unfortunately, unknown until the mod editor ships.)
    2. *BUT since monster armor is a flat integer, you're not going to get completely accurate results unless you're also stripping armor down to zero. Striking twice as often means losing twice as much damage to armor. That makes calculating actual base DPS impossible without having an idea of monster armor. (Finding a rough average is probably possible once the mod editor ships.)
    Torchlight 2 Rapid Respec - Putting the "hack" in "hack-n-slash"
    StashNinja - INFINITE Stash for Torchlight 2
    NullMod - Play together in the same multiplayer game with different mods!
  • I think you're forgetting to take into account the ****-mode players, who cannot afford to stat min/max. If I put all my points into focus I couldn't make it past the Ossean Wastes. The survivability incentives connected with the stats, rather than the damage, are the priority. From personal experience, allocating my stats with an eye towards staying alive has created a very reasonable pace for both weapon dps and skill damage.
    Member of the Ember Railworker's Union.
    Are you an Engineer who plays **** and wants to join?
    See viewtopic.php?f=35&t=41497.

    One wrench, one thousand uses.
  • But (and this is a guess)

    a) Weapon DPS scales up beyond level 100. So your Glaive Throw gets maxxed when you hit 100 and cannot get any more Focus, whereas Rapid Fire will keep scaling as you get better DPS weapons beyond hitting level 100. I think back to TL1, deep in the Shadow Vault with a Vanquisher and 1000 hours played. I was dual weilding pistols that had about the highest DPS I'd seen in the game. I thought I was maxxed, then suddenly a Bow dropped whose DPS far exceed those pistols....like doubled my damage.

    b) At any given level your weapon DPS should be scaling ahead of your level/focus based DPS. I've been respeccing my Outlander quit a bit but staying at my natural level (39). When I built a Glaive Throw build with massive Focus, it did a bit less overall damage than I could do with the Guns I had at the time / Rapid Fire and a Dex / Str build, because my Guns DPS was really good (for my level).
  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    edited September 2012
    Salan wrote:
    the thing is, you can be UTTERLY naked and your SPELLS that do not run off of weapondps have a variance so small, that gear is next to meaningless for their dps out put
    Pretty much what I've been saying for Embermages. The weapon barely matters at all. Most affixes don't apply to spells, those that do are outclassed by simply stacking more focus.
    Chthon wrote:
    People saying "focus > all" annoy me.
    Strength and Focus have the same **** scales. Strength is better insofar as it bumps crit damage.
    Yes, but when a skill deals 35% of weapon DPS as fire damage, plus 1000-4000 fire damage (similar to Emberquake), plus 30% fire damage for tier 3 plus another 40% fire damage from a passive, you get WAY better return from Focus than Strength. If that were just the one skill, fine, but the argument is that too many skills work like this.
    Have a question about game mechanics? Start here.
    Everything you ever wanted to know about Embermage skills.
    Wondering if you should pick Flame Hammer or Emberquake? This is for you.
  • armis wrote:
    Chthon wrote:
    People saying "focus > all" annoy me.
    Strength and Focus have the same **** scales. Strength is better insofar as it bumps crit damage.
    Yes, but when a skill deals 35% of weapon DPS as fire damage, plus 1000-4000 fire damage (similar to Emberquake), plus 30% fire damage for tier 3 plus another 40% fire damage from a passive, you get WAY better return from Focus than Strength. If that were just the one skill, fine, but the argument is that too many skills work like this.
    Thank you mate, that is the point.
    The scaling on Weapon DPS on Emberquake is so low that you will always get more damages with Focus since the major part of the spell is Fire damages.
    But the Engineer is meant to be a melee class with Strenght so Emberquake should have its scaling re-evaluated to focus more on Weapon DPS (and Strenght) and lower the magic part of the skill. It's not a nerf and there is no need to QQ. Keep the same damages for the skill. It's okay. No one wants to play Flame Hammer over Emberquake. Emberquake is lvl 42, last unlocked spell, if you want it to be a superior spell it's okay. Just change the scaling so it values Strenght over Focus, which should be the statistic of predilection for melee classes. This is simple common sense.
  • That's all well and good, but your engineer will be wearing Embermage gear and using a staff if you go full focus - without the benefit of class-specific items. Good Engi gear needs Strength.

    That's a legitimate build, but you won't be meleeing at all.
    背景音楽主義
    !jrpg
  • For me Prismatic Bolt should be redesign. I dont even know how this skill calculate dmg. It says for example +15 and doing over 500 dmg when im naked.
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    edited September 2012
    herionz wrote:
    First of anything I would want to say that I appreciate the effort you might have put onto testing those things, and I don't want to say otherwise but you are missing a big point here (seems that most of you are).

    As a science related person you have to know that there's always a difference (and sometimes it's really important) between a theoretical value or design and how it really works in reality or when you experiment. This test are cool but they aren't realistic and I will tell you why.

    The first reason is that if you try to build a character with 500 focus and you play **** elite 6 man parties you will be deleted, in a second. Even if you manage to survive long enough, you have near 0 chance to even do NG+ (unless there's some item or gear that reduces all incoming damage in 100% or near that).

    Second reason is about why elemental damage scale much more than with weapons, for supporting my statement I'll tell you my experience while playing HC elite with embermage and berserker. Focus and strength both reach the same increasing bonus it seems, which is 250% of the related things to each other (weapon damage or elemental damage/magical weapons) and since some skills tend to have a high flat damage associated with level scaling and most of them done during a certain time, focus increases them really well (because the number is already huge). But what happens with strength? Well strength also increases critical damage (I know that also focus increases execute change, but I'm going to just ignore it since doesn't have a meaning here) and as a berserker, when in rage mode, using a claw that hit for 80 damage on a champion, I entered rage mode (100%) crit, and using howl + raze I crit for 700 damage, that's near 10x more damage, also don't forget that my normal autoattacks then crit for 400. So 5x times more, and that's with only 29 points in STR since I have to put most of them (if not all) in VIT to survive.

    Still going with the example, with my embermage that has 79 focus and over 100 VIT deals huge amounts of damage, outputting my DPS with the berserker by far, clearing groups of monsters in seconds. But then I reach a boss, and I have to be moving since if I get 3 hits I can die. So I spend a lot of time moving, then it's why I think, it's great that skills like magma spear leave a burning that deals so much damage, or I will be screwed. But what does it happend with my berzerker? With similar stats and gear as my mage, I can just sit there below the champ or boss and crit him to death with minimal effort. For instance yesterday I did "Regent" with both of them alone, and it took me 5 times less with the berzerker than with the mage, why? Because with the mage I have to move around and be more careful, and can't be attacking so easily, totally opposite to the berserker.

    Returning to your test, I could make a wand/shield berserker (staff not since you would be crushed sooner or later) and be viable with most of the skills, knowing also that berzerkers don't have that much flat elemental damage associated with skills, but okay I could do. But I doubt the damage difference and viability would vary much from other builds. Just would be different plays styles which is what I find amazing in this game, being able to make a mage with 2H weapons or cannon, it's priceless (it's just a weird example and don't know it's viability but it's just to show you the degree of liberty you have here).

    So yeah, a good weapon with a STR build and synergies with other skills in trees by each class have better utilities and will change the outcome of the battles, this is not a "root your char and damage game" and this is most important when you are playing in ****.

    Still I would be awesome to have seen some data you collected and how you tested it (was it in the training dummy or was with different monsters/champs in different difficulties and party sizes?) but anyway I like the effort people made around theory things, I opens some ideas for building different chars and testing them out.

    Have fun and keep on going!


    that is great insight, and thank you for putting it into practical perspective. Myself, I test the theory crafting side of things, to see the min/max and correlations there in. I fully understand what you are saying, working through the end of act 3 on veteran in a mostly focus embermage i completely understand how once I hit NG+ i might be too squishy for my own good and that the tests basically test pure dmg scaling ONLY. which was their point thou.
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • SalanSalan Posts: 2,642
    Chthon wrote:
    People saying "focus > all" annoy me.
    Strength and Focus have the same **** scales. Strength is better insofar as it bumps crit damage.
    Dex is interdependent with Strength and Focus, but you can just put points in Strength whenever Strength > Dex. (In other words, all this "Focus is better because you have to split Strength+Dex" is complete idiocy.)
    As far as just being a damage multiplier goes, if given the same base to start with, Strength+Dex (done properly) > Strength > Focus. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
    )


    You sir are wrong, flat out simply wrong. you ONLY are correct in auto attack and weapondps skills. But what we are mostly talking about is the difference between Weapondsps and SPELLS that don't use Weapondps
    tell me good sir, how much damage your str is going to add to permafrost? Blazing pillars? Bane Breath? Seismic slam?
    nothing at all. absolutely 0..

    YET, focus will add to ANY weapondps skill so long as you are using a weapon with elemental damage invovled in it, as well as every single skill from the bonus damage, and that is more then likely 80 to 85% of the weapons in the game, so in essence FOCUS will add to every single skill there is in some manner or other, where str, does not.

    and those are just one from each of the classes, there are multiples, obviously more in the mage, but each class has a bunch.
    Chthon wrote:
    I honestly haven't had time to test this out

    You realize most people here are trying to test, debate and discuss the results. you first off state things that are flat out WRONG, then say you don't care to prove your point. come back when your willing to prove what you say, and join the discusion.

    I want to use Weapondps, i want my weapon procs to proc.. I want my gear +'s to be worth it.. but im playing a berserker and a embermage, and most of the skills I am deciding to use, don't work with gear in mind. I am biased in my experience and slanted in my opinion. But at least I am trying to test what I know, and question what I don't so I can understand it from both sides in better light.

    can you say the same Chthon?
    Synergies Conversion mod: http://www.synergiesmod.com
    Elite monsters, Hero monsters, world bosses, rare dragons, rare trolls, three tiers of End Game Raids, Legendary Armor sets, NEW Legendary Weapons, 3 new classes, Mercenaries, and Angels!
    21971.png

    moty-250.png
  • I am sad that there is only one good build for every class. Want be good embermage - go prismatic bolt, want be good NG - go focus, staff and quake ect. Some builds are so OP compared to others.
  • herionzherionz Posts: 127
    Salan wrote:

    that is great insight, and thank you for putting it into practical perspective. Myself, I test the theory crafting side of things, to see the min/max and correlations there in. I fully understand what you are saying, working through the end of act 3 on veteran in a mostly vitality embermage i completely understand how once I hit NG+ i might be too squishy for my own good and that the tests basically test pure dmg scaling ONLY. which was their point thou.

    Hehe yeah wouldn't try to say otherwise and it does look good, I'm just saying that is not wise to jump on the train "I want better scaling to skills with STR" because not everything has the same purposes, utilities or is situational friendly. It holds true that a berserker with FOCUS stat, same for the engie, would do more damage with skills, as it's the purpose of it. But it doesn't mean that they actually can cope with the mp consumption inherent to it and such. Saying that certain skills do more DPS with certain stats is one thing, saying that it's sustainable or realistic it's another.

    Your insight was good, I liked how you show the values, my post was mostly related to the OP.
    Salan wrote:
    Chthon wrote:
    People saying "focus > all" annoy me.
    Strength and Focus have the same **** scales. Strength is better insofar as it bumps crit damage.
    Dex is interdependent with Strength and Focus, but you can just put points in Strength whenever Strength > Dex. (In other words, all this "Focus is better because you have to split Strength+Dex" is complete idiocy.)
    As far as just being a damage multiplier goes, if given the same base to start with, Strength+Dex (done properly) > Strength > Focus. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
    )


    You sir are wrong, flat out simply wrong. you ONLY are correct in auto attack and weapondps skills. But what we are mostly talking about is the difference between Weapondsps and SPELLS that don't use Weapondps
    tell me good sir, how much damage your str is going to add to permafrost? Blazing pillars? Bane Breath? Seismic slam?
    nothing at all. absolutely 0..

    and those are just one from each of the classes, there are multiples, obviously more in the mage, but each class has a bunch.

    Don't get mad Salan, he's just saying that STR and FOCUS benefit on the same way their inherent related things (he's just saying that both scale up to 250% increasing damage of each own type) and the only difference you see between weaponDPS and skillDPS (which you aren't talking about, you are actually comparing things on a different way) it's just situational or build related.

    They all have their own downsides and good sides. You should try to compare skillDPS which is taking into account the time to cast and impact, or the time to take full effect with the weaponDPS(which is the damage divided by time) without taking into account crits for any of them. And yet then you will see that there's flaws since a STR build would crit for more damage (increasing their DPS output) than a pure FOCUS build. Also skills have higher initial values for a lot of reasons, that's why they scale so high, don't know if someone can but using the best weapon in the game should give a better insight on how it scales a STR build taking into account crits and such.
    Hedon wrote:
    I am sad that there is only one good build for every class. Want be good embermage - go prismatic bolt, want be good NG - go focus, staff and quake ect. Some builds are so OP compared to others.

    You can't be more wrong with prismatic bolt, actually it's not so good as I've said before, because it's initially not mp friendly, bolts tend to hit surfaces and don't do damage, also they scatter so you lose focus over your target (for instance if you are trying to take down a boss, but has a barrier of monsters in front, you just hit them) and as with Icy bolts the skill animation makes you move slower (has some time where you get stuck, unless you have castpeed). Best initial for ember is magma spear, but I also take icy blast for utility in HCelite, it's just a matter of taste, any build can work if you know how. I also though on trying a close combat build with ember, want to do it someday :D. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of how hard you try.

    It's not only one good build for any class, there's many (take a look at engi, he can be tank or cannon Damage dealer or 2H offtank). Embermage must be the only one that doesn't has that much variation XD, but you still can make it really different from the one I made. The more you play with it, the more insight you will get on the class. At first I also thought prismatic rocked, but then I saw the truth (after losing my first 2 embers in **** XD).
  • Weapon DPS skills scales from weapon damage, attack speed, flat damage and proc. Level scaling skills don't. And with Weapon DPS skills, Strength is way better than Focus (excluding maybe a dual wield elemental crazy executor). I'm pretty sure they tested out end game and these weapon DPS skills are viable. Imo, they just need to increase the damage on middle game weapons to be on par with the level 100 scaled skills.
  • torpborp wrote:
    Weapon DPS skills scales from weapon damage, attack speed, flat damage and proc. Level scaling skills don't. And with Weapon DPS skills, Strength is way better than Focus (excluding maybe a dual wield elemental crazy executor). I'm pretty sure they tested out end game and these weapon DPS skills are viable. Imo, they just need to increase the damage on middle game weapons to be on par with the level 100 scaled skills.
    They are not.
    Those skills have been tested on lvl 100 toons with the best end game gear according to TL2-armory and in the end Weapon DPS skills are far behind Elemental skills. Always. Even with 400 STR or with 1000 STR (unrealistic), there is no point where STR beats FOCUS in additionnal damages. There is no point where Flame Hammer beats Emberquake, no matter what godly end-game weapon you are wearing, just because Emberquake's power come from Fire damages which scales better with Focus and Passive spells. Weapon DPS skills are subpar, which does not sound right for melee fighters focusing on Weapons and brutal strenght.
  • I completely agree that skills based on your weapon DPS in this game are extremely underpowered. I haven't found one spell in the game that is based on weapon damage that I ended up picking as a part of my build, because magic damage that scales with your level is always greater. I main a berzerker claw user and in the end I decided focus was greater than strength as a stat point because it increases my chance to execute, an integral part of my build, and increases magic damage, which with sockets and my weapon set I actually do more magic damage than physical damage. In the end, it seems kind of odd to me that the go to stat for damage for all characters is focus - couldn't we have seen skills that use a multiplier of our stats, or some sort of other scaling system? In the first Torchlight, weapon DPS skills were overpowered because you could easily start adding to your weapon DPS since skills went over the 100% mark so quickly - almost no skill does that in TL2. When I get gear drops that give me plus 50% to ice or electricity damage, when my claw drops are doing more magic damage than physical damage, and when my skills are based largely on magic damage that goes up when I level, there's no reason to invest in the pure attack DPS stat.

    When you invest in a weapon DPS stat, you invest starting a low fractional value of your weapon dps - making it usually inferior to your attack to begin with - and then it only levels up when you level it up.

    If you invest in a player level scaling magic skill though, then you start out with already decent damage that levels up whenever you level it up, as well as whenever you level up.

    Using an elemental damage type, you will of course find that a majority of monsters have a lower resistance to this damage than they would physical damage. The only downside of this is that they will sometimes have a greater resistance. But as a whole, magic damage in both weapons and skills is just plain better in the game at the moment. Weather this is a problem for a future patch, I don't know. I think stats and skills should interact way more than they ever do in my RPG's.
  • ChthonChthon Posts: 1,855
    Salan wrote:
    You sir are wrong, flat out simply wrong. you ONLY are correct in auto attack and weapondps skills. But what we are mostly talking about is the difference between Weapondsps and SPELLS that don't use Weapondps
    tell me good sir, how much damage your str is going to add to permafrost? Blazing pillars? Bane Breath? Seismic slam?
    nothing at all. absolutely 0..

    YET, focus will add to ANY weapondps skill so long as you are using a weapon with elemental damage invovled in it, as well as every single skill from the bonus damage, and that is more then likely 80 to 85% of the weapons in the game, so in essence FOCUS will add to every single skill there is in some manner or other, where str, does not.

    and those are just one from each of the classes, there are multiples, obviously more in the mage, but each class has a bunch.

    You seem to be both an idiot and completely uninterested in improving your comprehension, but I'm going to give this one more try:

    You seem to think that Focus has a great advantage because it affects a larger number of skills. It's true that Focus does affect a larger number of skills, but so what? You do not have enough skill points to use more than 10 or so skills. And you do not have enough cast time to use more than one (maybe two) non-passive, non-fire-and-forget skill for any given purpose. So what advantage do you get from buffing up skills that you'll never cast because you're always casting something better for that purpose, or maybe never even put points in? None. Your point is nonsense.

    The point worth considering that several people keep trying to make, but consistently fail to formulate properly could be expressed as follows:
    1.A build that maxes Glaive Throw (+ Master of the Elements), invests every attribute point not needed for survival into Focus, and spams Glaive Throw has superior DPS to a build that maxes Shadow Shot (+ LRM + Akimbo), uses the best possible legendary pistols, invests every attribute point not needed for survival into the optimal combination of Strength + Dex, and spams Shadow Shot.
    2. The same thing happens on down the line with every spammy damage skill option for every class -- the best you can do with the best level-scaled option beats out the best you can do with the best-DPS scaled option.
    3. Ergo, the game is badly imbalanced.

    That argument is properly formed and logically sound. If premises (1) and (2) are correct, then conclusion (3) follows. This argument could be correct. It could also be incorrect. Like I said, I haven't had the time to test the premises yet. (And the people in this thread and others are NOT doing the right sort of tests to provide any useful data so far.)

    Finally, assuming the above hypothesis to be correct, there a widespread misunderstanding of WHY it is so. It has nothing to do with Focus being inherently superior (it isn't) everything to do with certain skills being inherently superior.

    So, like I said before, the right question to be asking is, "How does the base damage of level-scaled skill X at rank 15, level 100 compare to the base damage of DPS-scaled skill Y at rank 15, best possible weapon?" If X is beating out Y across the board, then we've got a balance problem.

    It annoys me greatly that people aren't asking the right question, much less making progress towards answering it, yet are being self-righteous jerks about what they think they understand, but don't.


    @ Beanna. Flame Hammer vs Emberquake is a really bad example because
    1. Flame Hammer's just not a very good skill to start with. So this result doesn't incline me to believe the same pattern holds across all level-scaled/DPS-scaled skill pairings.
    2. F&S. (Try testing fully charged Ember Hammer vs Emberquake instead.)
    3. Emberquake has a long-ish cast and a cooldown. That means that DPS is not likely to be proportional to damage-per-hit. If you want to compare this to a pure spamming skill, you need to account for cycle times.
    Torchlight 2 Rapid Respec - Putting the "hack" in "hack-n-slash"
    StashNinja - INFINITE Stash for Torchlight 2
    NullMod - Play together in the same multiplayer game with different mods!
  • Hedon wrote:
    I am sad that there is only one good build for every class. Want be good embermage - go prismatic bolt, want be good NG - go focus, staff and quake ect. Some builds are so OP compared to others.

    Define "Good". It doesn't seem like any of these builds can take more than a hit or two.
    Member of the Ember Railworker's Union.
    Are you an Engineer who plays **** and wants to join?
    See viewtopic.php?f=35&t=41497.

    One wrench, one thousand uses.
  • I understand testing has been done with naked SkillDPS + Focus and WeaponDPS + str + best weapons in game.

    I myself dont know how to test but can someone test with full set of gear? I have a nagging feeling that weaponDPS would fare better in the long run for 2 reasons: 1) New weapons can be introduced, 2) Procs....ill take doing 500DPS and procs LoH/MoH/stun/blind/etc over doing 2000DPS and having to kite

    EDIT: If there is a way to full respec, I can see myself going focus SkillDPS then respec to weaponDPS when I find good gear.
  • Chthon wrote:
    Salan wrote:
    You sir are wrong, flat out simply wrong. you ONLY are correct in auto attack and weapondps skills. But what we are mostly talking about is the difference between Weapondsps and SPELLS that don't use Weapondps
    tell me good sir, how much damage your str is going to add to permafrost? Blazing pillars? Bane Breath? Seismic slam?
    nothing at all. absolutely 0..

    YET, focus will add to ANY weapondps skill so long as you are using a weapon with elemental damage invovled in it, as well as every single skill from the bonus damage, and that is more then likely 80 to 85% of the weapons in the game, so in essence FOCUS will add to every single skill there is in some manner or other, where str, does not.

    and those are just one from each of the classes, there are multiples, obviously more in the mage, but each class has a bunch.

    You seem to be both an idiot and completely uninterested in improving your comprehension, but I'm going to give this one more try:

    You seem to think that Focus has a great advantage because it affects a larger number of skills. It's true that Focus does affect a larger number of skills, but so what? You do not have enough skill points to use more than 10 or so skills. And you do not have enough cast time to use more than one (maybe two) non-passive, non-fire-and-forget skill for any given purpose. So what advantage do you get from buffing up skills that you'll never cast because you're always casting something better for that purpose, or maybe never even put points in? None. Your point is nonsense.

    The point worth considering that several people keep trying to make, but consistently fail to formulate properly could be expressed as follows:
    1.A build that maxes Glaive Throw (+ Master of the Elements), invests every attribute point not needed for survival into Focus, and spams Glaive Throw has superior DPS to a build that maxes Shadow Shot (+ LRM + Akimbo), uses the best possible legendary pistols, invests every attribute point not needed for survival into the optimal combination of Strength + Dex, and spams Shadow Shot.
    2. The same thing happens on down the line with every spammy damage skill option for every class -- the best you can do with the best level-scaled option beats out the best you can do with the best-DPS scaled option.
    3. Ergo, the game is badly imbalanced.

    That argument is properly formed and logically sound. If premises (1) and (2) are correct, then conclusion (3) follows. This argument could be correct. It could also be incorrect. Like I said, I haven't had the time to test the premises yet. (And the people in this thread and others are NOT doing the right sort of tests to provide any useful data so far.)

    Finally, assuming the above hypothesis to be correct, there a widespread misunderstanding of WHY it is so. It has nothing to do with Focus being inherently superior (it isn't) everything to do with certain skills being inherently superior.

    So, like I said before, the right question to be asking is, "How does the base damage of level-scaled skill X at rank 15, level 100 compare to the base damage of DPS-scaled skill Y at rank 15, best possible weapon?" If X is beating out Y across the board, then we've got a balance problem.

    It annoys me greatly that people aren't asking the right question, much less making progress towards answering it, yet are being self-righteous jerks about what they think they understand, but don't.


    @ Beanna. Flame Hammer vs Emberquake is a really bad example because
    1. Flame Hammer's just not a very good skill to start with. So this result doesn't incline me to believe the same pattern holds across all level-scaled/DPS-scaled skill pairings.
    2. F&S. (Try testing fully charged Ember Hammer vs Emberquake instead.)
    3. Emberquake has a long-ish cast and a cooldown. That means that DPS is not likely to be proportional to damage-per-hit. If you want to compare this to a pure spamming skill, you need to account for cycle times.

    This is what I mean by weapon DPS skills being viable. Testing not only with the best available weapon but with a good gear build increasing your weapon damage (attack speed, flat damage) and proc. Still that's a huge work and huge stuff just to be able to use weapon DPS skills.

    Two quick questions :

    - Animation from weapon DPS skill use attack speed % or cast speed % ?
    - Does weapon DPS skill get double benefits from % elemental damage ? I mean, if I have a weapon with fire damage, and I have +20% fire damage, this will improve my overall weapon damage, thus increasing any weapon DPS skill right ? And if this skill is "X% of Weapon DPS as fire damage" does the +20% fire damage gets added on top of that ?
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.