Doing Things the Hard Way: Shooty Outlanders

EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
edited March 2016 in Outlander Discussions
First up, I have a disclaimer: playing a physical Outlander instead of a Focus-based one is the Torchlight 2 equivalent of cutting yourself. Maybe you feel guilty and you need to punish yourself, or maybe the suffering just makes you feel more alive, but whatever it is, you've decided to use guns or bows instead of throwing that ridiculous overpowered glaive like everybody else.

The first thing you need to know about shooty Outlanders is that too much Dex is ****, but you need some anyway. It doesn't boost your damage. Strength does that. I started with a 50/50 split between Strength and Dex until I got to 115 Dex, and then put everything into Strength from that point on. I should have stopped at 110. If you have 109 and max all the appropriate skills, you can hit the dodge cap, but nice round numbers appeal me more than putting one more stat point into something else. Stat-wise, you will use the same attribute allocation regardless of what type of weapon you want to use. Some builds can swap between weapon types easily, while others are more specialized based on skill selection. More on that later. For now, just know that if you keep raising your Dex to equip the best guns before your level allows you to, you will end up with a **** character, and shooty Outlanders don't have a whole lot of margin for **** up before they're utterly worthless. They walk that line closer than most other characters to begin with.

I've experimented with various weapon types, and my preferred weapon is the Shotgun, because the two key skills I use (Rapid Fire and Venomous Hail) are based on your weapons' damage per shot, not damage per second. This makes big slow shotguns awesome for them, and quick little pistols bad. Shotguns benefit from Ranged Weapon Mastery for damage, but not for range; keep that in mind, because you'll need all the damage you can get. Pistol users should get Akimbo in addition to Long Range Mastery. Bow users don't have anything specific to them, but if you want to use a bow, get Long Range Mastery. You should be seeing the pattern here: every shooty Outlander should get Long Range Mastery and max it out. It will improve the damage of every attack and every skill in your arsenal.

Shotgun Mastery seems like a no-brainer for shotgun users, but I actually passed on this skill. It increases your knockback to truly ridiculous levels, and I use Rapid Fire. If you get both of these skills at the same time, you'll blast enemies out of range before you can kill them. This is great for keeping you safe from melee opponents, but it's extremely annoying. If you're using Rapid Fire, don't get Shotgun Mastery. If you use another skill like Chaos Burst or Shadowshot, go ahead and get Shotgun Mastery too. Shotgun Mastery applies its effects to any skill based on weapon damage with the exception of Rune Vault (which requires 10 ranks before it does this, but isn't worth it) even the ones that don't use a gun at all. A shotgun master using Glaive Sweep triggers the stun and blind effects easily, and if your weapon has a chance to trigger a spell when it hits, this also applies to Glaive Sweep. This is a decent option for shotgunners who don't rely on Repulsion Hex to clear enemies away. Once you hit level 40 and get tier 2 Rapid Fire, your range is such that you don't have to worry about Repulsion Hex pushing enemies out of range. Feel free to pick it up and be nearly impossible to close on in melee.

Your three core offensive skills are Rapid Fire (great for shotguns), Chaos Burst, and Shadowshot. I would suggest just picking one of these, and not selecting Rapid Fire if you are using pistols. Rapid Fire has useful breakpoints at 5 ranks (increases the damage output by 50%) and 10 ranks (increases the range to 12 meters). You can get 5 ranks at level 10, and 10 ranks at level 40. Don't put more points into the skill until you can get the next breakpoint; it gets more expensive without getting all that much better, and you'll be perpetually mana-starved as it is. Rank 15 probably isn't worth it, as it makes an already expensive skill significantly worse, and you're not going to be able to run it as often as you'd like anyway. As a shotgunner, Rapid Fire gives you a significant increase over your base DPS, and some useful range besides. When you run out of mana, it can be handy to have a bow to plink away at a distance, or even a melee weapon as a backup if you find a particularly good one. You have a lot of Strength so you should be able to use any of them. Faster firing backup weapons with mana steal on them are also good, so something like a single pistol with good mana steal and a shield to go with it can keep you alive a little better while attacking fast to get you back up to speed. If you have two good mana stealing pistols, use them both. You will always run out of mana and need more; fact of life as a shooty Outlander. One way to deal with this is to socket the Rift Ember you get early in Act 2 that gives 10 mana steal on hit. When you find a better socketed weapon, break the old weapon to get the gem out and put it in the new weapon. It's better than any mana stealing gems you can get for a long, long time.

If you decide to go with Chaos Burst or Shadowshot, it doesn't matter so much what weapon you use. They are based off of DPS instead of your damage per shot, so whatever you've got is fine. Chaos Burst is great for confined spaces where it can bounce off of things and hit multiple times. Shadowshot works better out in the open so the secondary shots don't just hit a wall before they can find a target. A lot of them will miss anyway even on open terrain. If you go Akimbo pistols, know that the damage for your skills is based on the pistol in your character's right hand, so make sure the better pistol is in that slot.

There are a couple of utility skills that are quite convenient to have. At least one rank in Rune Vault is mandatory for every Outlander. You'll keep it at one since you don't have a ton of extra skill points floating around, but if you want to take it to five and try to use it for mana stealing that's an option. The cost for rank 1 is 9 mana and the cost for rank 5 is 12 mana, so it's cheap if you keep it low. It ramps up to 34 at 15 ranks though, so don't go further than 5. One rank in Tangleshot is cheap and snares one target with perfect reliability, although the guys nearby are a toss-up. It's handy for stopping enemies that have charge attacks from using them, and it's dirt cheap at 11 mana. One rank in Bramble Wall and Glaive Sweep lets you fill up your charge bar outside of combat, and they have in-combat uses for crowd control and distraction even with just one point in each. Well worth it. You can also blow up your own brambles to trigger Poison Burst, which is handy if you're using Venomous Hail. One point into Cursed Daggers isn't a terrible idea; it cuts enemy damage by 20% for 8 seconds at a cost of 18 mana, and it gives a nice icon over their heads so you can keep track of guys more easily. That one's pretty take it or leave it.

Stone Pact is worth whatever you want to put into it. One point gives a heal to top you off after a fight. More points makes it useful enough that you can scamper around through it and get some useful regen that stacks with potions when the **** hits the fan. Repulsion Hex is mandatory for non-shotgun builds, and will more or less make you untouchable by small numbers of melee enemies. As you put more points into it, it can hold off more and more enemies. Great skill. Shotguns have some trouble with it, as it can push your targets out of range before your attack completes, which makes you do no damage. Poison Burst gives you some crowd control abilities fairly early on, but it doesn't trigger very often until you've got a few ranks in it.

At level 42, the shotgunner gets the best skill on his list: Venomous Hail. This skill is fantastic. It hits for half of your weapon's listed damage per shot (not DPS) at rank 1 so shotguns get the most out of it. It hits 8 times to start with, up to 12 times at rank 10, and can trigger on-hit and on-kill weapon effects (but not life/mana steal) like Poison Burst or whatever DoTs you have listed on your weapon. It benefits from both Strength and Focus, which is great, but you should only be getting points in Strength so that's mostly just an academic point for you. It can hit enemies on different elevations, or behind cover, or in different rooms. The range is gigantic. I use it very frequently. Particularly dangerous enemies get a Tangleshot followed immediately by Venomous Hail, which will usually kill them before the root wears off.

You'll want to get Share the Wealth to maximize your charge bonuses, and Dodge for Survivability. If you get Poison Burst you might have to hold off on Dodge for a while, or sacrifice points elsewhere. You'll want Master of Elements if you go for Poison Burst early, and definitely by the time you get Venomous Hail. My level 64 shooty Outlander currently has the following skills:

Rapid Fire - 10
Rune Vault - 1
Venomous Hail - 9
Long Range Master - 12
Tangleshot - 1
Glaive Sweep - 1
Brambles - 1
Poison Burst - 9
Share the Wealth - 12
Repulsion Hex - 10
Stone Pact - 5
Master of the Elements - 12

No points to spare for Dodge yet. My current gear is the final boss quest reward shotgun (Gray Sky Omen), and the final boss quest reward breastplate (Liberation armor), and everything else is the nine pieces of the Sentinel armor set, which gives 33% faster casting (this applies to attack skills as well), +22% damage, and 6% mana steal. The percentage based mana steal means it takes no more than two shots to fill my empty mana gauge completely. It's a huge improvement over how things used to be. In the long run, it looks something like this: [LINK DELETED]
Trust me, I've checked.
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Comments

  • Hey, thanks a lot for this. I've been wanting to try the outlander but glaives and pumping magic/cast speed felt like I should be playing embermage instead so I never gotten around to it, until now :)
  • Thanks a lot for this. This style of Outlander is exactly what I want to play.

    So the descriptions for Rapid Fire and Venomous Hail are incorrect? They state that they do damage based on DPS. How do you know it is based on damage per shot instead?
  • truemmer13 wrote:
    Thanks a lot for this. This style of Outlander is exactly what I want to play.

    So the descriptions for Rapid Fire and Venomous Hail are incorrect? They state that they do damage based on DPS. How do you know it is based on damage per shot instead?
    You're going by the Torchlight Armory, aren't you? Their descriptions are wrong. The in-game versions are correct, and I have verified them personally using the combat logs.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • Yeah, I went by the armory because I didn't have the game at hand.

    Have to reread the descriptions in the game.
  • Yeah. Always verify in-game. The Armory is very often wrong about many things, from skill descriptions to mana costs to item DPS listings. I don't know what kind of ****-rodeo they're running over there, but it's practically a fountain of misinformation. Too bad, too; it would be a good resource if it were reliable.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • FolkenFolken Posts: 149
    I know Glaive Outlander is the way most people are playing, but I like Shooty Outlander. There is something very viscerally satisfying about combining Rapid Fire and Poison Shot.
  • Took me about 30 levels and a long night with the combat logs to reach these same conclusions, Empyrean. It's obvious that for pure killing efficiency the Glaive crowd wins. And, ****, let's be honest: Killing everything in the room in three seconds really IS the best defense. But playing as a shotgunner has proven a lot of fun (level 48 -- Elite -- now). The utility you get out of Rune Vault and Stone Pact make navigating the enemy hordes a great deal of fun. I skipped Tangled Shot and opted for Cursed Daggers instead because I'd rather have an almost certain 20% reduction rather than taking a chance on immobilizing one and maybe others -- besides, I'm not quite controlled enough in my play to be that precise in every instance. Sometimes, the packs get overwhelming in this game and while I'd like to say I'm a master tactician, admittedly, every once in a while I find myself knee-deep in pixel blood. I love this build, though. It's a great deal of fun! And I'm convinced that STR is the way to go -- the math works out. I've seen a couple of folks arguing over STR/DEX, but it should be obvious that all things being equal at 100, without stat requirements on weapons being an issue, STR wins every single time. In short, I've dropped my Tankgineer who I like a lot for this build because I just enjoy the playstyle more.

    Quick question, though: How does the math break down on Attack Speed% increase and its cost-benefit to a, mainly, auto-attacking build? Can you hit a break point that makes auto-attacking MORE beneficial than spamming Rapid Fire when it's available and only falling back on auto-attack when something has been de-armored and is up close and personal? Seems like Rapid Fire always wins because of the ancillary benefit of potentially keeping enemies out of your personal bubble, but I haven't checked to see how or if it's impacted by any attack speed increases. I'm guessing it isn't.
  • One question: wouldn't actually cannons be a better alternative to shotgonnes (especially for rapid fire)?
    They have strength instead of dexterity as a requisite and have better damage per shot (not to be confused with dps).

    What are your thoughts about this?
  • balu2000 wrote:
    One question: wouldn't actually cannons be a better alternative to shotgonnes (especially for rapid fire)?
    They have strength instead of dexterity as a requisite and have better damage per shot (not to be confused with dps).

    What are your thoughts about this?

    Cannons don't get bonuses from long range mastery, though, which means 30% extra damage taken off at 15/15 in it. Most other skills state that they require a bow, crossbow, shotgun, or pistol, so you wouldn't be able to use cannons with most of your skills.
  • Hi all

    My main char is a shotgonne outlander, and I really love the play style so far. I'm playing on veteran and I'm finding the game to be challenging, but not overwhelming or broken or anything.

    I like my build so far, but I will probably be rethinking a few things based on what I've seen in this thread, as I'm 36 and will probably hit mid 40s by late tonight if I'm able to play as much as I want to. a note on my style: I don't really care about super powerful DPS, I'm more into survival, and a fun, active play-style that is good at soloing and in a group.

    I dumped stat points into dex...I think I have between 110-120 right now (don't know, on my break at work ;3). I'll stop this immediately and put more into ST, which is neck and neck with my focus, both of which are around 40.

    One thing that I haven't paid much attention to: Long Range Mastery! I think I only have 1 or 2 points in it, I've put everything into shotgonne mastery, Blade, and Stone Pact, and rapid fire. I also have 1 point each in the little bat spawns and the passive poison thing.

    I usually put the two pact skills either right on top of one another or in a venn diagram-like configuration and remain relatively stationary, spinning around with rapid fire and just shooting the shotgonne when mana gets low. This seems to be working really well, the Djinni didn't stand a chance against me and I've been dealing with all kinds of different mobs very effectively. It does keep me on my toes, and I'm worried that once I reach a certain level, I'll start to weaken relative to mobs. I don't think it's too late for my Outlander, but, what do you think? Just beef up ST and Long Range Mastery, and maybe put a few more into the passive poison thing?

    Thanks!

    PS I love this game, it's just so satisfying.
  • Guswut wrote:
    balu2000 wrote:
    One question: wouldn't actually cannons be a better alternative to shotgonnes (especially for rapid fire)?
    They have strength instead of dexterity as a requisite and have better damage per shot (not to be confused with dps).

    What are your thoughts about this?

    Cannons don't get bonuses from long range mastery, though, which means 30% extra damage taken off at 15/15 in it. Most other skills state that they require a bow, crossbow, shotgun, or pistol, so you wouldn't be able to use cannons with most of your skills.

    That's a shame, it would have been the solution for the late game problem of not being able to equip high-lvl shotgonnes because of their dexterity requisites.
  • Great build. I particularly like the fact that it relies primarily on passives, with few if any buffs/debuffs with short timers that require frequent recasting. For people like myself who **** at quick multitasking, the need to keep an eye on timers and constantly recast mid-combat can get annoying.

    Question: how exactly does this build handle bosses?
  • balu2000 wrote:
    Guswut wrote:
    balu2000 wrote:
    One question: wouldn't actually cannons be a better alternative to shotgonnes (especially for rapid fire)?
    They have strength instead of dexterity as a requisite and have better damage per shot (not to be confused with dps).

    What are your thoughts about this?

    Cannons don't get bonuses from long range mastery, though, which means 30% extra damage taken off at 15/15 in it. Most other skills state that they require a bow, crossbow, shotgun, or pistol, so you wouldn't be able to use cannons with most of your skills.

    That's a shame, it would have been the solution for the late game problem of not being able to equip high-lvl shotgonnes because of their dexterity requisites.

    Indeed, it would be logical to have those requirements changed to "ranged weapon", but then why would anyone play the engineer if not to have an excuse to walk around with a massive hip cannon?
  • To be honest, I'd have to know exactly how many times Rapid Fire attacks per second. I suppose I should actually find out, eh?

    ... looks like it hits about six times per second, as close as I can count. The in-game clock goes nuts when you start using Rapid Fire, and it counts time incorrectly. It counted visibly sped up and counted off ten seconds while the clock on the wall counted six. If this is the case and we aren't taking armor into account, then at one rank your Rapid Fire is doing 50% more damage than a weapon that fires once per second. As ranks go up, the damage advantage goes up. As attack speeds slow down, the damage advantage goes up.

    For practical purposes, you're not going to get your attack speed high enough to beat Rapid Fire unless you factor armor into the equation; I don't think Rapid Fire's armor debuff stacks with itself; the combat log doesn't show any of the effects ending until the very last one, eight seconds after you stop shooting. It's possible that against a heavily armored enemy you might be better off bursting with Rapid Fire and then following up with an autoattack once you think you can finish him off in one shot. Pistols are another story, though... they're rather awful with Rapid Fire, and in actual gameplay you can probably get more out of autoattacking with them even without much in the way of attack speed buffs.

    I doubt it's affected by attack speed increases either, and since the game only counts it as one use of a special ability in your character record, I doubt casting speed matters but that needs formal testing before I could say for sure. I can say that casting speed increases your rate of fire with Chaos Burst and Shadowshot, so it's possible that they'll come out far ahead if you get enough faster casting speed going. On the other hand, you run out of mana quickly anyway, so it might not be worth pursuing that route unless you have a highly efficient mana steal that you can fall back on in addition to the faster casting speed. Sentinel set is perfect for this. I'm quite convinced it's got the best modifiers out of all the sets, but it's only about level 60ish so the random modifiers are subpar. Too bad, really... it looks awesome. Now that I think of it, the Mad Genius hybrid build could manage to crank casting speed with Chaos Burst or Shadowshot and actually handle the mana costs because it's pumping Focus like mad. That could be quite effective.
    One question: wouldn't actually cannons be a better alternative to shotgonnes (especially for rapid fire)?
    They have strength instead of dexterity as a requisite and have better damage per shot (not to be confused with dps).

    What are your thoughts about this?
    Cannons don't work with Rapid Fire.
    It does keep me on my toes, and I'm worried that once I reach a certain level, I'll start to weaken relative to mobs. I don't think it's too late for my Outlander, but, what do you think? Just beef up ST and Long Range Mastery, and maybe put a few more into the passive poison thing?
    Yeah, just make sure you put it all in Strength from here on. The extra Focus won't hurt your damage with poison-based skills that also draw on your weapon's damage or DPS (like Venomous Hail) but it'll mean you have slightly weaker autoattacks. Hardly the end of the world, though.

    The thing that shooty Outlanders have going for them over glaive-chuckers is that there is a lot more variety in how combat plays out. You're switching weapons, alternating between skills and autoattacks, repositioning yourself to catch multiple enemies in a blast, etc. Glaives just right click somewhere in the general vicinity and that's about it.
    That's a shame, it would have been the solution for the late game problem of not being able to equip high-lvl shotgonnes because of their dexterity requisites.
    By level 100 you can equip anything, so the problem does go away eventually.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • @cartoonbomb

    The summons are going to be worthless if you go much further on Veteran and definitely into NG+. They're just too fragile. Some folks argue that you can use them as distractions, but why worry about distracting things when you could get as much functionality out of Brambles or Tangled Shot and more utility. I would also stop putting ANY points in focus and just spam STR. All things equal at 100, with no stat reqs on weapons, STR wins the damage game above any other stat (unless, of course, you're a pure focus glaive thrower). Venomous Hail does benefit, damage wise, from both focus and str (and Master of Elements). If you haven't picked up Share the Wealth, you should. Point-for-point, due to the AS and crit bonus, it's probably the biggest bump in DPS you can find for even just one point (2% increase across the board for just a single point of investment). I like Blade Pact, but I never use it. I find Cursed Dagger to be more efficient and it doesn't impede the flow of my playstyle. I rely heavily on Stone Pact, though. And I think even at 15 points its mana cost as an opener is worth it for just about any situation involving more than three or four mobs (even regular mobs since it's very easy to pull distant mobs in this game). Sometimes, you find yourself in a situation where you're fighting two Varkolyn, you Rune Vault, and you accidentally scare up a werewolf nest.

    So, in short, I would consider LRM, Shotgun Mastery, RF, Rune Vault, Venomous Hail, Share the Wealth, and Dodge Mastery to be the core skills necessary to succeed farther on in higher difficulties. Granted, I haven't run my outlander through NG+ yet. But I also play a high-level engineer, and I do a lot of testing in created games on Elite (just like Empyrean and probably several others here). As has been said, being effective with this build really means squeezing as much DPS as possible out of every skill. That's what makes STR and both masteries necessary to be functional at higher difficulty levels.

    edit: I see Empyrean beat me to it. *grin*
  • I doubt it's affected by attack speed increases either, and since the game only counts it as one use of a special ability in your character record, I doubt casting speed matters but that needs formal testing before I could say for sure. I can say that casting speed increases your rate of fire with Chaos Burst and Shadowshot, so it's possible that they'll come out far ahead if you get enough faster casting speed going.

    Confirmed here as well, and I wondered if a pure Focus build built around CB or SS might work, but SS just seems too wonky in general. It's just too random. And while I like CB a lot, I wasn't initially certain whether or not it carried attack bonuses over like RF (which, really, is what makes RF such a great skill to begin with, imo). I had considered a full mana regen set, too. But in the end it just seemed like if I was going to go that route, it might be just as beneficial to main skill Venomous Hail and stack STR as a stat and go find a bunch of Focus and Mana Regen gear to try and get it to to a point where it could be competitive with RF (which, I suppose, you could then skill up to 10 and leave it and have those five points go to more utility like maybe earlier points in Dodge Mastery). I don't know. I need to do a lot of testing. But I'm glad to know that other folks are playing this build and coming up with the same conclusions. Seems like a lot of talk about Shootlanders revolves around pistols -- not so many folks seem enamored of shotguns. But the knockback and blind bonuses are just too useful to be ignored (along with Rune Vault) as far as ****! Save-my-**** buttons go.

    edit: Also just occurred to me that since CB and SS are weapon-dps reliant, mileage will vary based on your loot luck.
  • cartoonbombcartoonbomb Posts: 8
    edited September 2012
    @ aiglos & Empyrean

    Thanks for the info, ST/LRM/Share the Wealth it is. I was putting points into focus b/c I thought I would need the mana pool for rapid fire, but I'm finding a pretty good balance with mana steal, and when I don't have mana steal, only using rapid fire when I have to, like, if I'm cornered or I want to grind a boss down as quickly as possible.

    I haven't found myself spamming mana potions too much, maybe on bosses and champs, but it might not even be necessary half of the time, I just do it for insurance purposes.

    About the active play style: absolutely! There's nothing like lining up a bunch of little swarmy things and autoblasting them to **** with crits. That's one of best things I'm finding about the shotgonnes, the fact that if you shoot a crit, it applies to every baddie in your cone of fire! I'm using lots of + critical damage because of this. I don't think I can get Venomous Hail yet (again, can't check b/c I'm at work *edit* unless Venomous Hail is the "passive poison thingy" that I was talking about :lol: ), but I think I might stick to my current game plan but with the above revisions. I have Rune Vault, but haven't had to use it yet, though I'm sure I will on Elite or NG+
  • But in the end it just seemed like if I was going to go that route, it might be just as beneficial to main skill Venomous Hail and stack STR as a stat and go find a bunch of Focus and Mana Regen gear to try and get it to to a point where it could be competitive with RF (which, I suppose, you could then skill up to 10 and leave it and have those five points go to more utility like maybe earlier points in Dodge Mastery). I don't know. I need to do a lot of testing. But I'm glad to know that other folks are playing this build and coming up with the same conclusions. Seems like a lot of talk about Shootlanders revolves around pistols -- not so many folks seem enamored of shotguns. But the knockback and blind bonuses are just too useful to be ignored (along with Rune Vault) as far as ****! Save-my-**** buttons go.
    One of the things I like about Venomous Hail is that the damage output is affected by your Strength if you're using a strength based weapon and it's also affected by your Focus because it's elemental damage. If you have 50 Strength and 100 Focus, it actually does exactly as much damage as if you have 100 Strength and 50 Focus, or 75/75. The cool thing about the Mad Genius approach is that you stack Focus and use Focus for both the weapon and the elemental damage modifier. I assume it works that way, anyway... I'd need to test it, but I have no idea how the system could work if it didn't use Focus as a modifier twice.
    Seems like a lot of talk about Shootlanders revolves around pistols -- not so many folks seem enamored of shotguns.
    They're more straightforward to play, certainly. Range is decent and when you're doing damage it's all to just one guy regardless of range or positioning.

    Shotguns have so many knockback options it's ridiculous. Shotgun Mastery with Rapid Fire puts enemies to the limit your range almost instantly. You have to shoot them with a Tangleshot before unloading if you want to kill them without chasing them into a wall or halfway across the map. Shotgun Mastery also does weird things with Venomous Hail; it adds the knockback effect to each wave, so smaller enemies get pushed out of the area of effect. It's kind of weird.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • I totally forgot that VH gets the shield-break bonus as well at 15/15. Hmmm...

    I'm really intrigued now. I wonder if you really could build a character with STR stat dump and full Focus/Mana Regen gear around VH as a main skill? You're probably going to tab skill RF anyway, and you'll be stacking STR early on to do enough damage to survive until you actually get VH which, lilke you said, seems to benefit from STR/Focus as well. I'm going to test it tonight to be certain. I like VH a great deal also. It's incredibly useful. Once I figured out it could hit enemies on an upper/lower ledge, I was sold. Does VH proc Poison Burst as well? I'm sure it does, and I'm sure someone probably already has a poison build based around this and MoE. I'm wondering if the bonus from dual-stacking STR/FOC would overwhelm extra poison damage gear?

    Okay. Okay. Enough ideas. I guess I should go do some real-world work. *grin*
  • Empyrean wrote:
    Shotguns have so many knockback options it's ridiculous. Shotgun Mastery with Rapid Fire puts enemies to the limit your range almost instantly. You have to shoot them with a Tangleshot before unloading if you want to kill them without chasing them into a wall or halfway across the map. Shotgun Mastery also does weird things with Venomous Hail; it adds the knockback effect to each wave, so smaller enemies get pushed out of the area of effect. It's kind of weird.

    This is true. I think I'll invest in bramble just because of this.

    Another point about knock-back: I love it for crowd control and everything, but I'm guessing melee characters in multiplayer probably hate us for using shottys and Rapid Fire :?
  • @Empyrean

    Talking about VH and the knockback effect. When you say each "wave," does the game calculate each drop from the hail or can we just assume it's just graphical and the game is calculating damage purely within the radius of effect and all 12 waves ALWAYS hit within that 4 meters? That's a little wordy -- I guess to simplify, what I'm asking is: When the shotgun knockback gets applied can this happen so that an enemy gets knocked OUT of the radius of effect before damage gets applied for successive waves? It's a little confusing. I like VH a lot. It's super useful, but it's just not as "direct" in its application as RF. I know I should be tangling before I unleash RF, and I may have to adapt come NG+, but for now, I pretty regularly just charge ahead and keep Stone Pact and Rune Vault in my pocket when I pull groups I can't normally handle. I'd really like to try VH as a main skill since it represents sort of a best-of-all-scenarios situation, but RF is terribly useful, too. I guess the only real answer is to test the breakdown between a STR dump w/ Focus/mana regen gear build versus poison damage and see which comes out on top. STR seems to be the winner, so RF is always going to be the *easier* choice.
  • aiglos wrote:
    Quick question, though: How does the math break down on Attack Speed% increase and its cost-benefit to a, mainly, auto-attacking build? Can you hit a break point that makes auto-attacking MORE beneficial than spamming Rapid Fire when it's available and only falling back on auto-attack when something has been de-armored and is up close and personal? Seems like Rapid Fire always wins because of the ancillary benefit of potentially keeping enemies out of your personal bubble, but I haven't checked to see how or if it's impacted by any attack speed increases. I'm guessing it isn't.

    To determine the amount of Attack Speed you'd need to equal the same DPS as with RF you can use the following:
    Rapid Fire Damage = %WD * ( ( 1 + Cast Speed ) / RF Speed )
    AA Damage         = WD * ( ( 1 + Attack Speed ) / Base Weapon Speed [BWS] )
    

    If Nothing Affects RF:
    Attack Speed = ( ( %WD * BWS ) / RF ) - 1
    

    If Cast Speed Affects RF:
    Attack Speed = ( ( %WD * BWS ) + ( CS * %WD * BWS ) / RF ) - 1
    

    Now if we use the 6 attacks per second that Empyrian calculated:

    If nothing affects RF:
    Attack Speed = ( 6 * %WD*BWS ) - 1
    
    If Cast Speed affects RF (with such a high speed, it will be hard to visibly see the change):
    Attack Speed = 6 * ( %WD*BWS + Cast Speed * %WD*BWS ) - 1
    

    This will work out to close to 200% Attack Speed increase to match the DPS of Rapid Fire when it is at a higher level. (200% needed at 50% weapon damage) Of course this assumes that armor has been completely negated. At lower difficulties the difference will be negligible, but as enemy armor increases the effective damage reduction%:
    1 - ((Base Damage - Armor) / Base Damage)
    

    Using that, the following spreadsheet shows the effect of Armor vs the DPS of Rapid Fire. Unfortunately you cannot quite so easily determine EDR%, but it will give an idea of where the break even points will be. Simply adjust Weapon Speed and Weapon Damage % from Rapid Fire to fit the RF rank and effective Weapon Speed.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... EItMi12Wnc
  • Zinsho,

    *bows* You are most honorable, my number-crunching friend.
  • I'm currently tryin' to build a ranged Outlander as well and your build seems to be very interesting. But I do have a question about it. I'd like to use shadow shot as my primary attack (instead of rapid fire), but I'm not sure if that'll work out.
    In my previous attempts I had the impression, that SS is quite useful against groups and also against bosses, especially in combination with poison burst, but I yet could not test it in higher levels.
    What's your opinion on this? Can this work out on higher difficulties (I'd like to give it a shot on veteran)?
  • I've updated the spreadsheet with an approximate graph of attack speed needed to match RF's damage. I'm using the TorchlightArmory values for RF's Weapon Damage%, so the values may be slightly off but I don't have access to the actual values right now (and they're easy enough to correct if I find out they're wrong). It does however make the assumption that there is no armor. I've allowed for the inclusion of Cast Speed in case it does have an effect.

    Of course for any use to be accurate you have to have the actual Weapon Speed (so if you have any Attack Speed it will be displaying the wrong value) for use in the calculation.

    One other small note. The % Damage Increased in the first Graph, is also the amount of Attack Speed needed to make Auto-Attack deal as much damage as Rapid Fire vs a given reduction (assuming cast speed plays no role in RF). So it can be used as a rough gauge to see when switching from RF to AA makes sense vs tougher enemies to maximize damage.
  • 1. Great thread!

    2. I am a dual Pistol Outlander, but I love Rapid Fire. Dilemma. Do you know:

    a) Which Pistol it takes the damage from? Right hand? Both? Average?
    b) Do Pistol specifics just as Akimbo and Dual Weilding damage bonus in any way affect the number it chose in (a)?
  • If you want the hard way - try out Summoner outlander XD

    Even with gear boosting 100% HP & Dmg by the end of act 1 elite my pet + pathetic shadowlings insta die and I end up kiting for 1-2 minutes with LV1 glave.

    All my thought out build and carefully shopped/found gear with sockets and enchants - and i still have to rely on lv1 glave as it provides more DPS per mana , then any other option @ lv 18 (Sumonlander)
    Mobs that use AOE skills ( Blue vermin who cast tornado's / ice circle and ones that shoot fire seeking missles ) are insta death for pets AI and you cant create new pets around them , without eating the AOE that gets thrown around. Thus most of the time my character is the one who needs to do the killing , but since my gear is aimed towards +% pet stuff and survivability, I'm a terrible DPS and need to use skill that even at LV1 lets me progress the game - glave :D

    Boss battles goes like this - buy 50+ mana & hp pots -> run around boss spamming glaves ( your pet dies 3 sec after entering boss room with all the +% pet gear , to get bats + creeps you need to kill boss adds with AA + Bane B thus you are static and a easy kill , besides both bats & creeps also insta die .... ) I could compare this to Necromancer vs Diablo in Diablo II on first normal run :D Your whole build is towards summons and you cant use them.

    The odds are ridiculous for Elite summoner outlander and only thing that keeps me going is me being stubborn :) I even don't care for dying anymore, even thou my first goal was not to die and play supper safe/professional. Mobs don't re spawn so you can't farm higher lvl/gear without map resetting, that most ppl consider a semi-cheat. Stats, that is already a painful issue for outlanders, need to be spent to match gear requirements to boost your minions and thus you end up with sub-par allocation.

    TL:DR My semi-vent / rant on how Sumoner Outlander in Elite is dead weight and how in general all characters need to stick to cookie - cutter builds, in order to progress Elite in acceptable manner, without dying over and over again. I should just play normal with my summons and I bet it would be fun , but my ''pro'' **** doesn't accept non highest difficulty BS.
    NightWalk - MythWar , Cabal , 2Moons , Aion , League of Legends , Dota 2
  • Hi all

    My main char is a shotgonne outlander, and I really love the play style so far. I'm playing on veteran and I'm finding the game to be challenging, but not overwhelming or broken or anything.

    I like my build so far, but I will probably be rethinking a few things based on what I've seen in this thread, as I'm 36 and will probably hit mid 40s by late tonight if I'm able to play as much as I want to. a note on my style: I don't really care about super powerful DPS, I'm more into survival, and a fun, active play-style that is good at soloing and in a group.

    I dumped stat points into dex...I think I have between 110-120 right now (don't know, on my break at work ;3). I'll stop this immediately and put more into ST, which is neck and neck with my focus, both of which are around 40.

    One thing that I haven't paid much attention to: Long Range Mastery! I think I only have 1 or 2 points in it, I've put everything into shotgonne mastery, Blade, and Stone Pact, and rapid fire. I also have 1 point each in the little bat spawns and the passive poison thing.

    I usually put the two pact skills either right on top of one another or in a venn diagram-like configuration and remain relatively stationary, spinning around with rapid fire and just shooting the shotgonne when mana gets low. This seems to be working really well, the Djinni didn't stand a chance against me and I've been dealing with all kinds of different mobs very effectively. It does keep me on my toes, and I'm worried that once I reach a certain level, I'll start to weaken relative to mobs. I don't think it's too late for my Outlander, but, what do you think? Just beef up ST and Long Range Mastery, and maybe put a few more into the passive poison thing?

    Thanks!

    PS I love this game, it's just so satisfying.

    i have a shotgun outlander as well. lvl 45 now. since it's my first char, i have placed a point or two in skills i don't use right now. and i think i may have put too much into dex, like you. but we learn things as we go; experience is the best teacher. :D

    nonetheless, don't give up on your char. once you get to lvl 42 (i think), you'll get access to venomous hail asap, and put points into it as much as your level allows you. it'll make your life easier.
  • if i play with friends constantly,should i put skillpoints into Blade Pact instead of Repulsion Hex ? or maybe one point to Repulsion Hex willbe right ?
    PS :i'm chinese ,so forget my poor english。。:)
  • robinxyz wrote:
    if i play with friends constantly,should i put skillpoints into Blade Pact instead of Repulsion Hex ? or maybe one point to Repulsion Hex willbe right ?
    PS :i'm chinese ,so forget my poor english。。:)
    Repulsion Hex with one point is not very good. It has 20 knockback and fires once per second, and it is slow to track enemies. The duration is a lot shorter without points in it, too. I wouldn't use Repulsion Hex with only one point because it is not reliable. Glaive Sweep might be better for you to use instead in emergencies.

    Blade Pact reduces enemy armor, as well as move speed and attack speed. If you have a friend who fights in melee, they will benefit greatly from this. If you play with friends all the time, use Blade Pact.
    Trust me, I've checked.
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