HCE Ironman

AmplitudoAmplitudo Posts: 24
edited December 2015 in TL2 Hardcore Mode
I have always played ARPG's HC Ironman style, that is, no farming for XP or loot until I finish the game. Only one clear per zone, only one boss kill on the first run through the game.

To me, farming for XP to progress just turns the game into one of patience rather than skill. In a word, boring.

I have lost 15 or so characters so far just experimenting. The bosses don't give me trouble, some fights have taken me 10+ minutes to finish safely, but there was never any risk of death. What has killed me is nasty boss packs or champions that jump me when I'm not prepared.

I'm going to start a new character tonight, I think my best bet is a Cannon using Engineer. I only died on my last one because I was stupid and decided to experiment with a melee skill.

Anyone else doing HCE Ironman style? What is your mileage so far?

Comments

  • me and a friend are doin an Ironman Contest level 17 so far! (the frosted Hills)

    we're 2 tanky eng. with shield and 1 hand due to the fact that range is prohibited in an Iroanman Challenge.
  • entrancedentranced Posts: 224
    For now i kinda do half and half. I basically only clear things once through (made an exception once so far, and died haha). I definitely interact with vendors and shared stash though, buying infinite potions. So i'm very, very, very far from Ironman, but i'm also very very far from people that play 5 levels above the zone level.
    EHC: Zoolander I/II/III/IV - clvl:9/13/23/18 - Outlander (summoner)
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    edited October 2012
    Define what is Ironman. If that means no reroll/no going back, then that is what I do always, hovewer don't call it Ironman. Ironman means in addition no way-points usage, no to using any town-related facilities (merchants, enchanters, transmuters, respec, ...) including merchants/enchanters/whatever in the wild. Pet must be passive from start, never change it, never equip pet, and no fishing. This is core Ironman.
    To make it even more challenging, no potions (optional), no summons or no spells at all (optional).
  • Riw wrote:
    Define what is Ironman. If that means no reroll/no going back, then that is what I do always, hovewer don't call it Ironman. Ironman means in addition no way-points usage, no to using any town-related facilities (merchants, enchanters, transmuters, respec, ...) including merchants/enchanters/whatever in the wild. Pet must be passive from start, never change it, never equip pet, and no fishing. This is core Ironman.
    To make it even more challenging, no potions (optional), no summons (optional).

    I did define it.

    I don't accept your definition.
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    Amplitudo wrote:
    I have always played ARPG's HC Ironman style, that is, no farming for XP or loot until I finish the game. Only one clear per zone, only one boss kill on the first run through the game.

    Well, then I just politely ask you not call it Ironman, cause you are changing the meaning of this word, which is well-defined among RPG community. You may call it "no-reroll" or similarly, but not Ironman.
  • Riw wrote:
    Amplitudo wrote:
    I have always played ARPG's HC Ironman style, that is, no farming for XP or loot until I finish the game. Only one clear per zone, only one boss kill on the first run through the game.

    Well, then I just politely ask you not call it Ironman, cause you are changing the meaning of this word, which is well-defined among RPG community. You may call it "no-reroll" or similarly, but not Ironman.

    Your opinion is noted.

    I'm going to continue to call it Ironman.
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    Amplitudo wrote:
    I'm going to continue to call it Ironman.

    Whatever, you can even call your mother virgin. It is just plain stupid to call things wrong names.
  • Amplitudo wrote:
    I have always played ARPG's HC Ironman style, that is, no farming for XP or loot until I finish the game. Only one clear per zone, only one boss kill on the first run through the game.

    To me, farming for XP to progress just turns the game into one of patience rather than skill. In a word, boring.

    I have lost 15 or so characters so far just experimenting. The bosses don't give me trouble, some fights have taken me 10+ minutes to finish safely, but there was never any risk of death. What has killed me is nasty boss packs or champions that jump me when I'm not prepared.

    I'm going to start a new character tonight, I think my best bet is a Cannon using Engineer. I only died on my last one because I was stupid and decided to experiment with a melee skill.

    Anyone else doing HCE Ironman style? What is your mileage so far?
    Got kind of bored with my HCE Engineer so I'm planning on Ironmanning. Mulling over the rules I should follow but so far it's roughly:

    1) Permadeath (non-HC if you want to be able to show stats/gear after death).
    2) Elite difficulty.
    3) No service NPCs such as vendors, respec, or gem NPCs (quest givers okay).
    4) No portal scrolls.
    5) No stash use (shared or otherwise).
    6) Pet must be passive/no equipment.
    7) Soloing only.
    8) Once you enter a dungeon you must exit only via the end portal. You may not zone out via the entrance or use a scroll (see 5).
    9) No resetting – areas/bosses may only be killed once per game run.
    10) No ranged weapons. No shields.
    11) No glitching (e.g. getting the pathing AI stuck).
    12) No backtracking between Acts.
    13) No fishing.
    14) No all damage reduction gems (e.g. Eye of Grell).
    15) No maps.
    16) No potions/consumables (OPTIONAL).
    17) No active talents; only passive talents may be taken (OPTIONAL).
    18) Cannot equip magic gear unless it is class specific (OPTIONAL).
    19) Must enter all Phase Portals (OPTIONAL).
  • Riw wrote:
    Amplitudo wrote:
    I'm going to continue to call it Ironman.

    Whatever, you can even call your mother virgin. It is just plain stupid to call things wrong names.

    The definition of Ironman differs not only from game to game, but within the same game by individual preferences. It is nebulous at best. We will never be able to agree on one definition that applies to ALL RPGs.
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    Point 10 has nothing to do with Ironman. You may use whatever weapon you see fit. The same with 14 - you will have only single Eye of Grell, so you can use it. 7) Soloing only - not sure what you mean. You may use summons coming from skills, or from spells, unless you choose no spells option.

    Everything else defines Ironman pretty well.

    OPTIONALLY - no consumables and/or no spells. As for phase portals I think it is advantageous anyway to enter them for stuff and xp. Points 17-18 are just ridiculous .
  • Riw wrote:
    Point 10 has nothing to do with Ironman. You may use whatever weapon you see fit. The same with 14 - you will have only single Eye of Grell, so you can use it. 7) Soloing only - not sure what you mean. You may use summons coming from skills, or from spells, unless you choose no spells option.

    Everything else defines Ironman pretty well.

    OPTIONALLY - no consumables and/or no spells. As for phase portals I think it is advantageous anyway to enter them for stuff and xp. Points 17-18 are just ridiculous .
    You understand that there is no formal definition of Iron Manning, yes? Post your own definition if you feel strongly about a formal one. Also multiple runs means you can get multiple EoGs.
  • SerpeSerpe Posts: 67
    Cannon Engineer will fail on Luminous Arena for sure, if not earlier. Cannot use shield + no multitarget abilities outside of a thin line AoE means that Luminous Arena archers will just eat you alive.
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    You understand that there is no formal definition of Iron Manning, yes? Post your own definition if you feel strongly about a formal one. Also multiple runs means you can get multiple EoGs.

    There is not EXACT definition, however there are some principles - saying Ironman is just no backtracking is clearly wrong. I don't get your point about multiple EoGs. In Ironman of course, you cannot do multiple runs, so you will utimately own exactly one EoG. That's how it should be, since there is only single General Grell. Getting multiple EoGs is plain cheating, that is not how the game is supposed to be played. But I see no reason why using single EoG should be banned.
  • playing an Ironman with any kind of range weapon is quite easy.
    So in my opinion a real Ironman is meele only!
  • Riw wrote:
    You understand that there is no formal definition of Iron Manning, yes? Post your own definition if you feel strongly about a formal one. Also multiple runs means you can get multiple EoGs.

    There is not EXACT definition, however there are some principles - saying Ironman is just no backtracking is clearly wrong. I don't get your point about multiple EoGs. In Ironman of course, you cannot do multiple runs, so you will utimately own exactly one EoG. That's how it should be, since there is only single General Grell. Getting multiple EoGs is plain cheating, that is not how the game is supposed to be played. But I see no reason why using single EoG should be banned.
    So you're saying Iron Manning cannot continue into NG+? I think we're just going to have to disagree on this point.
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    So you're saying Iron Manning cannot continue into NG+? I think we're just going to have to disagree on this point.

    Now that's theoretical discussion, since noone ever beat the game using any Ironman ruleset. Moreover I heard that NG is much thougher, it's a new difficulty level, like **** in D2. So if you can survive Ironmaning in NG (theoretically), yes you can have second EoG. And sorry even the theory has to end there.
  • entrancedentranced Posts: 224
    Siding with Riw on this topic. The thread should be titled "HCE no re-clears". Calling it ironman dilutes the sense of the word to meaninglessness. There may not be one accepted definition of Ironman, but there are several accepted pillars that make it up. No re-clearing is just one of those pillars.
    EHC: Zoolander I/II/III/IV - clvl:9/13/23/18 - Outlander (summoner)
  • entrancedentranced Posts: 224
    This thread made me think of something. How viable would it be to create an addon which enforced a given set of agreed-upon Ironman rules? Did anyone make one for TL1?
    EHC: Zoolander I/II/III/IV - clvl:9/13/23/18 - Outlander (summoner)
  • DrMonkeeDrMonkee Posts: 117
    Riw wrote:
    Define what is Ironman. If that means no reroll/no going back, then that is what I do always, hovewer don't call it Ironman. Ironman means in addition no way-points usage, no to using any town-related facilities (merchants, enchanters, transmuters, respec, ...) including merchants/enchanters/whatever in the wild. Pet must be passive from start, never change it, never equip pet, and no fishing. This is core Ironman.
    To make it even more challenging, no potions (optional), no summons or no spells at all (optional).

    With these restrictions, HCE is not possible to complete. The fact that someone made it to level 17 doing this is admirable. My first HCE Outlander made it to Act 2 without repeating level areas (but I used potions, merchants, etc). After clearing the first desert area I was the minimum level to start the first side dungeon. The mobs were quite nasty and glaive barely phased them. If I went by "Ironman" rules, there will always be a point where it's impossible to progress further without at least upgrading your weapon. If you are unlucky and don't get a weapon drop, you're stuck. It'll happen eventually in 4 acts.
    "If it takes 2 steps back to take 1 step forward, may as well just turn around and take 3 steps forward"
  • DrMonkee wrote:
    Riw wrote:
    Define what is Ironman. If that means no reroll/no going back, then that is what I do always, hovewer don't call it Ironman. Ironman means in addition no way-points usage, no to using any town-related facilities (merchants, enchanters, transmuters, respec, ...) including merchants/enchanters/whatever in the wild. Pet must be passive from start, never change it, never equip pet, and no fishing. This is core Ironman.
    To make it even more challenging, no potions (optional), no summons or no spells at all (optional).

    With these restrictions, HCE is not possible to complete. The fact that someone made it to level 17 doing this is admirable. My first HCE Outlander made it to Act 2 without repeating level areas (but I used potions, merchants, etc). After clearing the first desert area I was the minimum level to start the first side dungeon. The mobs were quite nasty and glaive barely phased them. If I went by "Ironman" rules, there will always be a point where it's impossible to progress further without at least upgrading your weapon. If you are unlucky and don't get a weapon drop, you're stuck. It'll happen eventually in 4 acts.
    Made it to level 18 Engineer with the above 1-16 rules above although I'm thinking about ditching 14. I agree a lot of this will boil down to loot luck. I lucked out with a Lucky Die of +3% MF. Still a ways off but I have no plan of attack for Artificer.
  • entrancedentranced Posts: 224
    DrMonkee wrote:
    With these restrictions, HCE is not possible to complete. The fact that someone made it to level 17 doing this is admirable. [...] If I went by "Ironman" rules, there will always be a point where it's impossible to progress further without at least upgrading your weapon. If you are unlucky and don't get a weapon drop, you're stuck. It'll happen eventually in 4 acts.
    That's what Ironman is, seeing how far you can get with those rules. Basically no one ever finishes Ironman. I think i heard of one group pulling it off, ever, in D2. I vaguely recall at least one group finished Normal in D1.
    EHC: Zoolander I/II/III/IV - clvl:9/13/23/18 - Outlander (summoner)
  • Well, poor WorthlessBum went down swinging in the Luminous Arena. Screen prior to death:

    QWvIi.jpg

    At least he died to Champions and not traps! Going to miss that helmet with the goggles.

  • 1) Permadeath (non-HC if you want to be able to show stats/gear after death).
    2) Elite difficulty.
    3) No service NPCs such as vendors, respec, or gem NPCs (quest givers okay).
    4) No portal scrolls.
    5) No stash use (shared or otherwise).
    6) Pet must be passive/no equipment.
    7) Soloing only.
    8) Once you enter a dungeon you must exit only via the end portal. You may not zone out via the entrance or use a scroll (see 5).
    9) No resetting – areas/bosses may only be killed once per game run.
    10) No ranged weapons. No shields.
    11) No glitching (e.g. getting the pathing AI stuck).
    12) No backtracking between Acts.
    13) No fishing.
    14) No all damage reduction gems (e.g. Eye of Grell).
    15) No maps.
    16) No potions/consumables (OPTIONAL).
    17) No active talents; only passive talents may be taken (OPTIONAL).
    18) Cannot equip magic gear unless it is class specific (OPTIONAL).
    19) Must enter all Phase Portals (OPTIONAL).

    I would also add that there are no summoning spells allowed, because otherwise it would be too easy to roll as a engi with the health bot or you for example have the
    zombie, imp etc. spells u would be able to stand in the background while they're a killing the mobs!
  • I would also add that there are no summoning spells allowed, because otherwise it would be too easy to roll as a engi with the health bot or you for example have the
    zombie, imp etc. spells u would be able to stand in the background while they're a killing the mobs!
    Not entirely sure I agree. Certainly for the Healbot if you're not allowed it the game becomes a very tedious "sit and wait to regen" from other items unless you also want to restrict hp/mp regen/on hit items and gems. There's a reason the (traditional) melee classes have innate healing abilities and the ranged classes do not. Have you tried to clear the very first zone without any healing/ranged/pet? Very tedious. You basically have to pull each mob separately and rely on leveling hp restore to make it through. Now it's level 1-100 like that.

    If you do adopt a no regen type rule, how do you approach clearing zones? You get healed to full each time you zone into a town. Can't return to town without clearing the zone of the primary bosses? Harder, doable, but probably very boring. With regen at least you can take some risks beyond "pull one, kite", which is how the last toon died, incidentally. Thought I could Onslaught around archers before they got me. Oops. Which brings me to another point - without regen you are basically dead at one point or another. Some mobs will hit you no matter what because you don't have any ranged. Even with a combat summon out most enemies still target you. Even with an OP Forcefield build you're going to eventually get slapped before getting your charge bar up, particularly since you have no reliable way of getting gear/gems.

    I have a strong suspicion that a "no regen" rule would be the same as a "get hit once and you die" rule. **** for sure but ultimately boring. However it's an interesting idea and I'll give it a shot before saying any more.
  • just joined and am bumping this OLD! thread.... bringing it back from the grave!! anyway been starting to play some iron man characters and am having a blast. got my engineer up to lvl 11 and am about to go into the one eyed willie dungeon. gotten some good drops so far (heal self, and weapons expert) but dont know about my build. anyone else been doing some iron man runs? got any good builds? worthless **** seems to have gotten far but didnt post his build and he hasnt logged on in a year :o might be interested in a party iron man run too if anyone else is...
  • embermanemberman Posts: 729
    I've done one successful no-rerolling no repeating HCE outlander run up through the Netherlord, but he went on to get one-shot in NG+ Frosted hills by a charge mob from off-screen in a super-zoomed-in dungeon. It takes a lot of careful kiting to do outlander.
  • entranced wrote:
    This thread made me think of something. How viable would it be to create an addon which enforced a given set of agreed-upon Ironman rules? Did anyone make one for TL1?

    Don't think there's a way to enforce that. People would find workarounds, or use console commands or ...something, just anything to game whatever "system" you put in place. Something like that would have to be built into the game from the start. Which honestly I wish it was, something like an XCOM 2 with achievements that can only be earned on Impossible Ironman or similar.
    HCE Solo. Ex WoW movie maker. USN Deepsea. Canyoneer. Ironman. CrossFit Instructor.
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