Piracy protection

MikeBMikeB Posts: 16
edited October 2009 in TL General Discussions
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but what's being done to prevent people pirating the game? In a downloadable, so it doesn't have a CD, single player, so it doesn't have any sort of connection to the net, and highly modifiable game, I'm worried it will be highly vulnerable to pirates, and I think trusting that people will do the right thing is a terrible idea. People ****.

What's being done to stop people pirating?
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Comments

  • travisbaldreetravisbaldree Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭✭
    We'll have basic DRM for unlocking it (mostly so that we can do a demo->fullgame upsell without requiring a re-download) - but unless you're an MMO, it's nearly impossible to prevent piracy.
    Hopefully, since we're charging 20 bucks, pirates will at least have the good grace to feel embarrassed - who knows!
    At any rate, we'd rather not get into crazy-intrusive DRM shenanigans because I think it punishes the people who BUY your game. And we like those people a lot.
  • ashleywowashleywow Posts: 63
    edited September 2009
    I am sure Travis mentioned something about 3rd party DRM(i no idea what DRM is but think its some kinda piracy protection)..
    Then he also said no matter what protection they put on it some1 will crack it soon enough..
    I for one dont ever use pirate coppies as i like the original game and for $20 its not worth waiting for pirate copy anyhow..
    We should all support these smaller companies as these are the ones that dont rip the public off(unlike the large ones)..
    All the guys at Runic deserve our support for the amount of work they put in to their games and they also listen to their players=us totally supporting them

    keep up the good work Runic

    oh i see travis replied while i was typing lol.....im soooo sslllooooowwwwwww
  • travisbaldreetravisbaldree Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, we may not do DRM AT ALL for Box.
    But for the download what we'd like to do is an unlockable demo -
    i.e. you download the whole game ( which won't be gigantic ), play it, hit the demo limit, pay 20 bucks, and then you can immediately continue playing. There's basic DRM required to do that ( code entry after purchase ). It just stinks and is a crummy barrier to entry to download a standalone demo, then have to RE-download for purchase.
  • Yeah, we may not do DRM AT ALL for Box.
    But for the download what we'd like to do is an unlockable demo -
    i.e. you download the whole game ( which won't be gigantic ), play it, hit the demo limit, pay 20 bucks, and then you can immediately continue playing. There's basic DRM required to do that ( code entry after purchase ). It just stinks and is a crummy barrier to entry to download a standalone demo, then have to RE-download for purchase.

    hello Travis...saw the interview at PAX with UFRAG..cool
    still dont know what DRM is lol
  • travisbaldreetravisbaldree Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭✭
    Digital Rights Management :)
  • Digital Rights Management :)

    oh at last ..ty
    Its great to see developers who actually listen and even reply to gamers..tnx for that and keep it up please lol...you guys should teach these massive game companies how to do this..but maybe not as it must feel good to be unique..
  • permaximum wrote:
    Yeah, we may not do DRM AT ALL for Box.
    But for the download what we'd like to do is an unlockable demo -
    i.e. you download the whole game ( which won't be gigantic ), play it, hit the demo limit, pay 20 bucks, and then you can immediately continue playing. There's basic DRM required to do that ( code entry after purchase ). It just stinks and is a crummy barrier to entry to download a standalone demo, then have to RE-download for purchase.


    Agreed on everything.

    But you guys should really consider giving some advantage to TL players for the MMO. It would be the best way to limit piracy. For example beta invite or special pet, mount (just visually different) or even secret map. Piracy can't beat this :) I mean somehow you need to make connection with the MMO.

    This is a great idea..a special pet or mount would go down a treat..or as i assume there will be micro transitions in MMO maybe some free transaction..
  • Yeah that's a great idea. If you buy the game, you also get an MMO promo code.
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  • It would be great to give people something in the mmo for buying single player, but I don't know if we'll be able to work out the logistics. The mmo won't be out for almost two years, and I don't think it's realistic to ask people to hold onto their reciepts or codes for that long. As far as beta goes, I think all of you on the forums should get in fine. |^)
  • Assuming you guys keep track of who has purchased what... requiring an email address and saying "gift in the future" wouldn't be very difficult to pull off.
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    Join StrategyWiki, a solid video game guide community, in compiling information for your favorite games!
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  • Volbard wrote:
    It would be great to give people something in the mmo for buying single player, but I don't know if we'll be able to work out the logistics. The mmo won't be out for almost two years, and I don't think it's realistic to ask people to hold onto their reciepts or codes for that long. As far as beta goes, I think all of you on the forums should get in fine. |^)

    YAY!! Now the wait ensues...
  • I think its a good thing you guys are choosing not to use DRM on it, that often turns people off and pushes them towards pirating it (Spore anyone?).
  • Picklecopter, they said they WILL have DRM.
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    Join StrategyWiki, a solid video game guide community, in compiling information for your favorite games!
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  • jamesLjamesL Posts: 3,568
    edited September 2009
    Picklecopter, they said they WILL have DRM.
    yes, but its basically DRM for Dummies, I really don't know how anyone could object to this

    you download the entire game from runic's site for free
    you play till char level 3 or 6 or something until you the game pops up a message saying, "if you want to go further you must buy the game"
    you go back to runic's stie, enter a credit card number, they e-mail you an unlock code; you enter the unlock code in the game and continue exactly where you left off;
    if you buy the game through Steam or something then maybe the unlock code is included or may not even be required; they said the box version would probably not have it
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  • Picklecopter, they said they WILL have DRM.

    Also said they will probably not have DRM on the boxed version in this same thread :)
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  • hawknhawkn Posts: 8,348
    i like the one time download thing. :)
    ...I most certainly am not the meanest person on these forums, I defer that position to hawkn. ~ AMB2010
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    Runic Games Fansite My Deviant
  • Picklecopter, they said they WILL have DRM.

    Sorry I was referring to the boxed version.
  • SpockSpock Posts: 155
    permaximum wrote:
    ... Just a simple dvd-check for the box-version is enough i think.

    Oh please no! I really hate having to leave a game CD/DVD in the drive just to play it. That's how I lost my Far Cry CD; I took it out to play something else and mislaid it. :( If it checks for the cd/dvd during install, that should be enough.
  • JerichJerich Posts: 1,665
    Spock wrote:
    permaximum wrote:
    ... Just a simple dvd-check for the box-version is enough i think.

    Oh please no! I really hate having to leave a game CD/DVD in the drive just to play it. That's how I lost my Far Cry CD; I took it out to play something else and mislaid it. :( If it checks for the cd/dvd during install, that should be enough.


    I agree. I think you only need enough copy protection to keep honest people honest so that the game generates a revenue stream. The non-honest people will almost always find a way to rip the game and quite a few will even buy a game that they really like after "trying it out a while". In some respects, it is probably beneficial if the game gets pirated some. Runic games does not have a huge advertising budget and the single player game will be the best promotion for the MMO.

    The more people who would not play it otherwise who pirate it, the bigger the fan base will get. The bigger the fan base, the bigger the audience for the MMO and the more people who will fund microtransactions. MMOs are kind of like singles bars. You need a certain amount of people to come come before they will start generating crowds. Even an MMO filled with a bunch of morons is better than an MMO that is a deserted wasteland.

    That being said, I would never actively encourage someone to pirate anything.=P

    - Jerich
  • travisbaldreetravisbaldree Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭✭
    Pirates can always be converted to payers.
    Kill them with kindness and all that.
  • OconnelOconnel Posts: 106
    Any chance to see this demo-version of Torchlight sooner than october 27? If you are doing a demo-full version (which is wise decision btw), you can put this on your site, or on the forum a little earlier for us. We will play this demo, and when time comes (27 october), we will buy it :) Why wait? Maybe we find so minor bugs in a mean-time.
  • JerichJerich Posts: 1,665
    Oconnel wrote:
    Any chance to see this demo-version of Torchlight sooner than october 27? If you are doing a demo-full version (which is wise decision btw), you can put this on your site, or on the forum a little earlier for us. We will play this demo, and when time comes (27 october), we will buy it :) Why wait? Maybe we find so minor bugs in a mean-time.

    The reason they won't release a demo before the real version is the size of torchlight team. When preparing anything to go out to the public (even a beta), you have to freeze the codeset at least a couple weeks in advance and have your internal quality assurance test it for major show stopper bugs. Torchlight, however, is still being polished. They need their quality assurance to be constantly testing every new feature that is added. A big programming team with an unlimited budget could just hire a second QA team for this very reason, but Runic Games is a smaller startup. We will get a much better project if we wait for the developers to release the demo when they release the main game. Anyway, the main purpose of a demo is not for people to find minor bugs, it is to market a product. Lots of games actually fail because they release a beta with some bugs and people QQ on forums.

    But you may be asking yourself, surely they need a beta test... I mean after all, they have only been developing this game for 11 months... That line of thought is actually faulty. Firstly, single player games almost never have an open beta before the demo. Online games have betas primarily to get the numbers of people together to test multiuser content in all its permutations. It is not as difficult to rigorously test a single player game. Second, the fact that the game has only been in development for 11 months actually works to their advantage! here me out...

    Think of your desk... it tends to get messy over time no matter what you do. The same is true for game codesets. The longer people work on them, the more features that get added and the more bloated the code gets. It gets worse and worse the longer the game stays in development because things get changed and you can never completely remove the old code. Worse yet, as time goes on you lose core members of your team and with them goes knowledge of the codebase. Eventually no one really understands the complete ins and outs of a particular section of your code and it becomes more and more difficult to both fix bugs and find them. This is where Torchlight enjoys four significant advantages..
    • One... they have only been developing the game for 11 months. It hasn't had time to get bloated.
    • Two... the team is still small and no major person has quit as far as I know. Need to understand how something works? Just ask the person who programmed it in the first place.
    • Three... These guys designed Diablo, Diablo II, Fate and Mythos from the ground up! Each time you design a new game of a particular archetype, you know a little bit more what the final code will look like. That means you don't go in as many wrong directions and minimize the broken ghost code in the codeset that is from a previous path, but no one feels comfortable removing because no one really understands it.
    • Four... They have put this together in 11 months! It is impossible to program something this fast in this amount of time unless you are someone who makes very few coding errors to begin with. A serious error can take 10 X as long to fix as it took coding.

    In all, I think Torchlight may actually be released with very few bugs in it. It will probably have some, but I would not be surprised if some people are able to play through the entire game without encountering anything major, even prepatched.

    - Jerich
  • My brief thoughts on anti-piracy.

    All Runic need todo is keep track of serial number/key codes/whatever you want to call them and only let unlocked games with the code they issued to them to play the MMO. These codes could either be issued from the initial purchase or just prior to the release of the MMO by emailing/PMing the users account that purchased the game originally.
    As for the single player game no matter what protection scheme you use it will always(apart from most MMOs) be cracked, most of the time even before the game hits the stores, so putting a very restrictive protection in place as was mentioned only hurts the legitimate users.
    Price point certainly helps, and i think $20 will go a fair ways towards this. I snapped up FATE without hesitation at $10. But looking at it from another perspective you could say that no matter what the price a large portion of pirates won't care, because if they can get something for free they will.
  • If one thinks of the full single-player game as an advanced advertisement for the MMO, then maybe the effects of piracy won't be too damaging...at least, I hope not.
  • Pirates can always be converted to payers.
    Kill them with kindness and all that.

    I do hope you'll hand us some sharper "tools" in-game though to kill our enemies with. I saw that big troll and he(she?) didn't strike me as the kindness type. Still you never know... Hmmm.,I must remember to buy some flowers and chocolates before descending into the mine.
    Gamers are young at heart and creative thinkers. Shall we play a game?
  • SpockSpock Posts: 155
    ... Kill them with kindness and all that.
    I don't know about the kindness part, but I agree with the rest ... :twisted:
  • I'm glad to hear that the DRM won't be too intrusive. Stories on the internet about certain DRM methods mucking up computers spread like wildfire, even if the evidence is unfounded or untrue. You are guilty unless proven innocent in many cases, and this can cause some people to avoid a great game due to fear/ignorance to the effects of the DRM method. It sounds like people won't have to fear those kinds of things when it comes to Torchlight.

    Best news in this whole thread is that it sounds like single player purchasers / forum lurkers will have a good chance at getting into the MMO beta. :D
  • Thecla wrote:
    If one thinks of the full single-player game as an advanced advertisement for the MMO, then maybe the effects of piracy won't be too damaging...at least, I hope not.

    It may not hurt the mmo too much, but it could definately affect how much money we have to put back into the single player.
  • hawknhawkn Posts: 8,348
    I'm just happy about the possibility of getting into beta. I'm going to download TL the morning of the 27th, as soon as my mom is up, and will enter her credit card number! :D
    ...I most certainly am not the meanest person on these forums, I defer that position to hawkn. ~ AMB2010
    I7OBI.png
    Runic Games Fansite My Deviant
  • leoleezleoleez Posts: 276
    We'll have basic DRM for unlocking it (mostly so that we can do a demo->fullgame upsell without requiring a re-download) - but unless you're an MMO, it's nearly impossible to prevent piracy.
    Hopefully, since we're charging 20 bucks, pirates will at least have the good grace to feel embarrassed - who knows!
    At any rate, we'd rather not get into crazy-intrusive DRM shenanigans because I think it punishes the people who BUY your game. And we like those people a lot.

    this sounds good! I really dislike pirating alot of my friends do it, but 20 bucks is like 2/5 the price of a console game, and is quite understandibly cheap.
    Yeah, we may not do DRM AT ALL for Box.
    But for the download what we'd like to do is an unlockable demo -

    this sounds really good!
    I really don't care about DRM until I try to uninstall a program, DRM that stay on your computer is infuriating to me
    former mythos and D2 player
    UNs i've used: leoleez, leodaknight, leotheknight, zealotlee, etc.
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