Poison Outlander Build - Elite NG+ Updated

son12son12 Posts: 8
edited March 2013 in Outlander Discussions
NG+ Update

Just finished elite NG+ Act 2 with this build at lv 69.

Itemization:
I've been focusing on +hp and +elemental resists to help with getting one shotted. Right now I'm at ~5k hp, , roughly ~350 resists to all unbuffed, but still sometimes its very close. Like before, I get 1-shot more so from random trash mobs than in boss fights due to a bunch of spears/arrows/elemental missiles or charge mobs. Glaives are very powerful still, I would say most trash dies within 2 glaives, with fights never really lasting over 5 seconds. Boss fights are much easier than my first run through in regular elite mode. Additionally, I've also been favoring gear with dex/vit to hit the 75% dodge/50% block cap.

Current unbuffed stats: 37% Block, 55% Dodge, 182% Magic Damage, 31% Crit, 5k hp, 300 mp.

Skills:
Since damage is really no concern, I opted for Shadowmantle with my left over points. The utility of this spell is great, especially in NG+ where missiles are the biggest threat to getting one-shotted. Melee mobs don't come close thanks to Repulsion Hex. Although Shadowmantle only lasts 10 seconds, this is more than enough and it has saved my life countless times. As mentioned above, most trash don't last over 5 seconds, so as soon as I see any indication of ranged mobs, I would pop Shadowmantle and Glaive away. I'm currently at 63% reflect and it helps tremendously. One thing to note though, is that extra reflect percentages from gear is not additive, rather multiplicative. For instance if you have 50% from Shadowmantle, and another 10% on gear, this will net you 55% total reflect chance rather than 60%. I wonder if there is a reflect cap?

Another skill I got was the Bramble Wall/Glaive Sweep combo mentioned in one of the replies. 1 point in each lets you max your charge bar on demand, without mobs. This way you can always start with Share the Wealth bonuses, which are pretty significant, and especially helpful right before a boss fight.

I'm also maxing Burning Leap, just for better escape. Tiers give faster cast as well as longer range. I found this skill to be useful in boss fights when you need to get the **** out and away from boss trash or the boss.

Spells:
Picked up Will Power rank 5, giving me 45% Slow Resist and 45% Immobilization Resist. Helpful against some trash mobs that snare you. I have yet to find Dervish, but even if I do I don't think I can give up any of the spell slots. Currently I have Elemental Protection, Elemental Overload, Blocking, Willpower. Again, so far damage hasn't been the issue, it has been survivability.

Pets:
Don't underestimate your pet and their summons. They make great tanks and are good for distracting mobs. Right now my pet has over 20k hp, summons a skeleton, a zombie, and a pack of zombies.

Looking forward to NG++ and onwards.

Original post

I just beat the game on Elite using the poison outlander on single player, took me around 30 hours. This was my first character and first play through so I can't compare with others, but generally it was very doable. Not hard, but at times pretty intense. Most bosses were killed first try. The place where I died the most was ironically that level where you had to "stay in the light". Also I would get one-shot more so during random trash than when fighting bosses. Thanks to Empyrean for the overall build structure, I'll try to focus on things he didn't specifically mention. Here are some thoughts.

My stats:
Lv52, ~4k hp, ~250 mp
Str: 20 base, 113 total - didn't know what I was doing at first or I would have kept at base, there is no reason to boost str with this build
Dex: 50 base, 89 total
Focus: 225 base, 364 total
Vit: 5 base, 45 total
Armor: 322
Base resists: ~200 all around
Base dodge: 41%
Hp regen: 12/sec
Mana regen: 4/sec
Avg. Eq level 35

Main Skills:
Glaive Throw, 5/15
The main attack skill. 5 points is more than enough, and better for mana efficiency. I used dual wands up until level 30 or so because I didn't have enough mana regen to completely replace auto attack. After I got some decent mana regen, I switched out for a single wand/shield combo. The shield has been an absolute life saver. I was lucky enough to come across a good unique shield, Sentinel's Watch, but even with 15% base block chance the shield helps. Blocking means you're IMMUNE to attacks. I am currently sitting at 35% block from enchants and Vit bonuses from items. Be sure to also use the Blocking spell, which at rank 4 gives 8% block. With that said I don't think its worth it to add Vit on level ups to boost block %. As I understand there are shields with high base block %, and you should be able to pick up some vit on random pieces of gear anyway. Note that block is capped at 50% and I think I'll be able to hit it easily without any points invested in vit. At this point I replaced auto attack with Glaive Throw. I would still run out of mp if I spam it, but it'll recharge quickly. I never really found this to be an issue because you're basically always on the move. The 1.4mana/sec gems don't seem like much, but trust me they help a lot.

Cursed Daggers, max
This is a key skill. On boss fights this skill has helped immensely with the damage reduction as well as its high DoT damage. You're always on the run on boss fights so you don't have time to spam Glaive Throw. I would say on most boss fights act 3 upwards consisted of using Cursed Dagger every 4 seconds, in between renewing Stone Pact, Elemental Protection, Repulsion Hex. Only rarely did the opportunity open up for me to cast Glaive Throws consecutively. While the DoT lasts 4 seconds, the damage reduction lasts 8, which is huge. Also, this skill helps a lot with boss trash.

Support Skills:
Stone Pact, max
Again, key skill, couldn't imagine playing without it. The cooldown is short enough to let you have 2 down at all times. This is especially helpful on boss fights so you can run between them. This skill pretty much allows me to tank trash mobs.

Repulsion Hex, 5/15
I had this skill at 1/15 for the longest time, until I had points to spare. I use the Elemental Protection spell, and at rank 4 this gives me +48 to all elements. I raised this to 5/15 so it would last 56 seconds, so I could renew this along with elemental protection, which lasts 1 min. I find that sometimes its hard to see the elemental protection buff effect. Overall, Repulsion has saved my **** countless times. It basically doesn't let anything get near you. Even on the mobs that try to hook and pull you in, as soon as the hex gets within range it'll knock the mob back and it won't be able to touch you.

Burning Leap/Rune Vault, 1/15
I find Burning Leap easier to use as an escape than Rune Vault.

Bramble Wall, 1/15
Helpful sometimes. Works on Bosses. I didn't use it that much though, might need some practice aiming it.

Dodge Master, Share the Wealth, Master of the Elements, all max
These skills are no brainers and a must.

Spells:
Elemental Protection, Elemental Overload, Blocking
Already mentioned Elemental Protection, its a nice boost. Elemental Overload looks nice on paper, but with it only lasting 10 seconds its not as great. The only time I used it specifically was to refresh Cursed Daggers on a boss if I had time. Blocking is key. 8% at rank 4 is huge. That's a free 8% of the time you don't take any damage. I never found Concentration, but I'd imagine it to be pretty useful, especially at lower levels.

Pet:
Summon Skeleton, Web, Frost, Summon Blood Zombie
The two summons are pretty helpful with tanking and splitting attention of mobs, especially with Stone Pact healing them.

Build to aim for:
[LINK DELETED]

Extra skill points:
I'm really at a loss of what other skill I should get
Venomous Hail seems situational, maybe on some bosses, and some trash. Also need high dps weapon.
Glaive Sweep is moot because of Repulsion hex, no mobs get near you anyway. Damage is negligible.
Flaming Glaives looks great on paper, giving mobs 45% poison and fire debuff, but in reality this skill is hard to aim and requires you to be pretty close.
Shadowmantle looks nice but only lasts 10 seconds. Situational at best.
Blade Pact could be useful, but I don't see how it would fit into my skill cycle. I normally Cursed Dagger when I see mobs, run back some, cast stone pact, turn around and glaive. If needed, I move and cast another stone pact and move between the two. I move around too much for this skill to be useful.
Burning Leap is actually my top contestant lol. Faster casts and jumping across the screen is appealing.
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Comments

  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Sounds pretty solid to me. Just want to add some points that might be helpful.
    Blade pact, although this skill only reduced phys armor(yeah ****, ikr), but the -speed debuff is definitely useful. I max this one.
    Venomous hail, yeah seems somewhat surprising for dual wand or wand+shield builld. But, I find it pretty easy to me to swap the weapon set and keep a shotgun on the second set just for the sake of using this and tangling shot. It's useful againt champs. Veno hail - max, tangling shot - 1. After getting other skills, I have some leftover points so I put it all in tangling shot for the extra duration.

    For spells, you didn't mention one very important spell, Dervish. This constantly adds 30% attackspeed and cast speed at all levels, which is a huge boost to your dps. The only thing that changes is its duration. It's 4 seconds at level 1, I think? and 20 seconds at level 6. Another helpful spell I found recently is Haste. Haste VI with 2 x 6% faster move speed gems makes it easier for me to avoid attacks and moving from place to place, especially in boss fights. Unlike dervish, haste cooldown is the same with its duration, so you can keep this as long as you rebuff every 12 seconds.

    Don't get arcane tools or whatever that spell with a blue staff icon. It doesn't affect your glaive throw damage. I think you already know this, but you can't be too careful, right?
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    son12 wrote:
    Extra skill points:
    I'm really at a loss of what other skill I should get
    Venomous Hail seems situational, maybe on some bosses, and some trash. Also need high dps weapon.
    Glaive Sweep is moot because of Repulsion hex, no mobs get near you anyway. Damage is negligible.
    Flaming Glaives looks great on paper, giving mobs 45% poison and fire debuff, but in reality this skill is hard to aim and requires you to be pretty close.
    Shadowmantle looks nice but only lasts 10 seconds. Situational at best.
    Blade Pact could be useful, but I don't see how it would fit into my skill cycle. I normally Cursed Dagger when I see mobs, run back some, cast stone pact, turn around and glaive. If needed, I move and cast another stone pact and move between the two. I move around too much for this skill to be useful.
    Burning Leap is actually my top contestant lol. Faster casts and jumping across the screen is appealing.
    Some people likes to combine glaive sweep with brambles. It lets you recharge your recharge bar prior to fights.

    Flaiming glaives is trash, nuff said.

    Shadowmantle seems nice, but like you said, it lasts only 10 seconds. You want this buff to be on 24/7 so that you don't get caught by surprise, and sadly this skill fail to meet that requirement, so NO.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • son12son12 Posts: 8
    Nice, haven't found Dervish yet. I think Cast Speed and Run Speed are about the only things that can significantly increase damage and survivability at this point.
  • GtBGtB Posts: 76
    " Another helpful spell I found recently is Haste. Haste VI with 2 x 6% faster move speed gems makes it easier for me to avoid attacks and moving from place to place, especially in boss fights." says the guy that was lecturing me that runevault was the best escape skill for outlander, btw it is funny he has nothing to say against burning leap anymore .
    "Shadowmantle seems nice, but like you said, it lasts only 10 seconds. You want this buff to be on 24/7 so that you don't get caught by surprise, and sadly this skill fail to meet that requirement, so NO." says the guy that doesn't have any clue of how usefull refflect missile is.
    I love this guy !!!

    Anyway you got a pretty solid build here son12.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    GtB wrote:
    " Another helpful spell I found recently is Haste. Haste VI with 2 x 6% faster move speed gems makes it easier for me to avoid attacks and moving from place to place, especially in boss fights." says the guy that was lecturing me that runevault was the best escape skill for outlander, btw it is funny he has nothing to say against burning leap anymore .
    "Shadowmantle seems nice, but like you said, it lasts only 10 seconds. You want this buff to be on 24/7 so that you don't get caught by surprise, and sadly this skill fail to meet that requirement, so NO." says the guy that doesn't have any clue of how usefull refflect missile is.
    I love this guy !!!

    Anyway you got a pretty solid build here son12.
    It seems that you have no idea what I'm talking about. Rune vault is nice to have, and haste just make it even better. I think its just me being a move speed sucker, but it works well with my playstyle.
    About burning leap, I didn't feel the need to explain him about it, because he already statted in his post
    Burning Leap/Rune Vault, 1/15
    I find Burning Leap easier to use as an escape than Rune Vault.
    I don't actually like to judge people when they already know what they are doing. But when someone don't know what they are doing and take burning leap, I feel the need to tell them which is better.
    This guy is playing on elite, and I assume he has done some research beforehand.

    You don't know how my gear is statted up, you don't know my playstyle, **** you don't even see me in game. I have 3-4 sockets with 7% reflect missile in my gears, also I have statted in my post in other thread that %reflect missile is good. I would max shadowmantle if only the duration is 20 seconds or so. 10 seconds is making this buff not usable even in bossfights, unless you can kill the boss in less than 10 seconds, which I can't do just yet in my current gear.

    You don't know me, so don't act like they do. You act like a smartass, and I hate people like you most. Keep having doubts in me though, too bad that the force isn't on your side this time.

    EDIT: Oh, and if you don't have anything to do, don't post useless posts that's completely irrelevant to the topic like this.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • GtBGtB Posts: 76
    Want some constructive thoughts?
    I don't use Dervish because it doesn't let my mana regen the time to kick in, I can cast 20 sandstorm in a row whithout problem instead of 5 under Dervish, that is a huge damage loss ... what is good on paper is not always true ingame.
    If you stop lecturing people, they would have more space to explain themselve, man I love you so stop being mean.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    edited October 2012
    GtB wrote:
    Want some constructive thoughts?
    I don't use Dervish because it doesn't let my mana regen the time to kick in, I can cast 20 sandstorm in a row whithout problem instead of 5 under Dervish, that is a huge damage loss ... what is good on paper is not always true ingame.
    If you stop lecturing people, they would have more space to explain themselve, man I love you so stop being mean.
    Dam dam dam. Just for your info, I'm using dervish VI and I beat the level 105 dungeon bosses easily. I don't want to boast up about my experiences or character because I don't think mine is not fully geared yet, but I'm not the only one that think dervish is the best spell you can get as a focus outlander. If you can only cast 5 sandstorm under dervish then you are pretty much a fail character, and by all means, you aren't allowed to bash anyone when you have a failed character. ****, I can spam glaive 24/7 without dervish, and it will take about 1 minute, if not more, to empty all my mana pool under dervish buff. The fact that you are,, casting sandstorm instead of glaive under dervish,, is somewhat rubbish..

    -- removed by moderator --
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • GtBGtB Posts: 76
    I was not arguing with you, it is just my experience with Dervish, Dervish can hurt mana regen that's all, if you are fine with Dervish it is fine for you I don't care at all.
    Why are you talking to me in the first place ? I have enough with your nonsense Im trying to be nice and all, I even made a love confession. I will just ignore you for now.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    GtB wrote:
    Im trying to be nice and all
    is what you are saying.
    GtB wrote:
    " Another helpful spell I found recently is Haste. Haste VI with 2 x 6% faster move speed gems makes it easier for me to avoid attacks and moving from place to place, especially in boss fights." says the guy that was lecturing me that runevault was the best escape skill for outlander, btw it is funny he has nothing to say against burning leap anymore .
    "Shadowmantle seems nice, but like you said, it lasts only 10 seconds. You want this buff to be on 24/7 so that you don't get caught by surprise, and sadly this skill fail to meet that requirement, so NO." says the guy that doesn't have any clue of how usefull refflect missile is.
    I love this guy !!!
    is what you said

    Doesn't seem that way to me.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • IS this a good dps build? cos i wana make pretty much a dps glass canon outlander
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    A good DPS build is 5 points in Glaive Throw, no more than 109-110 Dex after gear, maxed Master of the Elements, and everything else into Focus. Everything else is gravy after that. If you're not playing a harder setting, you can absolutely destroy anything the game throws at you with just that.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • son12son12 Posts: 8
    IS this a good dps build? cos i wana make pretty much a dps glass canon outlander

    This has got to be one of the most powerful builds in the game. I really can't imagine clearing maps any faster with a melee character. For any class, I highly doubt armor % is going to make a difference in NG+ and onwards. What matters endgame is 50% block, 75% dodge, missile reflect, and high hp, which can be had without any vit investment.
  • EmpyreanEmpyrean Posts: 641
    Dervish is great for characters who don't have enough +fast casting gear to unload when they need to.
    Trust me, I've checked.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    Brute, is actually a very good addition on elite. I currently have 5 points on brute, and the rest of my extra point on death ritual. Basically now, I spend 0 points at tangling shot. This unexpectedly works really well, and undoubtedly raises the worth of shadowling brute in elites, or at least in my eyes.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • SlylentSlylent Posts: 66
    Burning leap costs more then RV, but if manas not a problem, i know some mobs drain mana, you could put into brute and death ritual to 7 so you can keep him up all the time
    Yes. I play a shooty Outlander.
  • Empyrean wrote:
    Dervish is great for characters who don't have enough +fast casting gear to unload when they need to.

    Well, to be fair, some mana spenders (Bane Breath, I'm looking at you here), don't really really want high cast speed. Not because high cast speed is bad, but because the spell itself is expensive, and spamming it will get you OOM. That particular skill (Bane Breath), would be better served with Elemental Overload (which I assume affects both the DoT, and the base damage).

    And yes, I understand BB ****. But when you are playing a summoning Outlander, it's kinda hard to get away from, since those shadow-lings are crazy good.
  • son12 wrote:

    Some people likes to combine glaive sweep with brambles. It lets you recharge your recharge bar prior to fights.

    Flaiming glaives is trash, nuff said.

    Shadowmantle seems nice, but like you said, it lasts only 10 seconds. You want this buff to be on 24/7 so that you don't get caught by surprise, and sadly this skill fail to meet that requirement, so NO.

    That's not even true

    I maxed out flaming glaives and they are very helpful.. especially for areas where enemies can quickly surround me.

    I use it for boss fights.. and it makes a huge difference in my damage thanks to the 45%. I hit 50-60ks with glaive without the debuff and 75k with it.

    Don't bash a skill just because you don't know how to use it



    Btw i don't know why all of you outlanders waste your time trying to max out the dodge passive.. i have 9/15 and i regret putting more than 5 in that skill.

    Without a full charged bar i have 75% dodge... there is really no reason for anymore than that seeing as even 75% isn't very helpful.

    Shadowmantle is a great skill btw. The purpose for the 10 second on 10 second off is to avoid making it overpowered but when it's on i never get hit by a ranged attack and the damage it inflicts is very much worth the points.
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    That's not even true

    I maxed out flaming glaives and they are very helpful.. especially for areas where enemies can quickly surround me.

    I use it for boss fights.. and it makes a huge difference in my damage thanks to the 45%. I hit 50-60ks with glaive without the debuff and 75k with it.

    Don't bash a skill just because you don't know how to use it



    Btw i don't know why all of you outlanders waste your time trying to max out the dodge passive.. i have 9/15 and i regret putting more than 5 in that skill.

    Without a full charged bar i have 75% dodge... there is really no reason for anymore than that seeing as even 75% isn't very helpful.

    Shadowmantle is a great skill btw. The purpose for the 10 second on 10 second off is to avoid making it overpowered but when it's on i never get hit by a ranged attack and the damage it inflicts is very much worth the points.
    Don't start this argument again.. FG is trash, no more no less. It's not a bash, it's a fact.

    You have 75% dodge without a full charge bar because you invest too much point in dex, which is basically useless/worthless.

    Shadowmantle is also worthless, because generally fights fall into 2 category, long fights and short one. In long fights you want to use buff that have duration time longer than its cooldown time. In short fights(boss fights), you want buff that can last as long as the fight goes. 10 sec is too short for a boss fight, making it just worthless, and if you got to a point where you can just burn the boss in under 10-15 seconds, you don't need reflect chance anyway. In addition to all of that, shadowmantle also requires heavy investing unlike berzerk's ice shield. Btw, it's not about the damage you inflict, it's about the chances and duration of the skill.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • It is about the reflect damage because if the missle is reflected it does no damage to you while doing quite a bit to your enemy.

    Without the 10 seconds of cooldown it would be vastly overpowered and every outlander would use it which removes the point of build diversity

    FG is not trash. Like i said you don't know how to use it. There are situations were it is very helpful, and situations where it doesn't help at all.

    the reflect chance for shadowmantle is also very good... i speak from 70 hours of experience using it
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    It is about the reflect damage because if the missle is reflected it does no damage to you while doing quite a bit to your enemy.

    Without the 10 seconds of cooldown it would be vastly overpowered and every outlander would use it which removes the point of build diversity

    FG is not trash. Like i said you don't know how to use it. There are situations were it is very helpful, and situations where it doesn't help at all.

    the reflect chance for shadowmantle is also very good... i speak from 70 hours of experience using it
    Lol, it's about the chance, since you are using it as a defensive skill.

    It's not 10 seconds cooldown, but it's 30 sec cooldown, and going down to 16 seconds at level 15. I couldn't care less if they change the cooldown time to 1 min, as long as they increase the duration to 20 seconds or so. The current one is just simply unusable and it's better to invest in other points instead of shadowmantle. I don't know why you said it would be overpowered, because it's not. Look at berzerk ice shield, it's totally usable at level 1. In fact, most berserk leave it at level 1. Anyway, shadowmantle is a no for me. Not that it completely worthless, but it doesn't give me enough for me to invest 15 points into that.

    FG is trash, not because I can't use it, but because I know there are better skills out there. I used to use FG as well, but then I realized it was a bad investment. If FG is as good as you say, then I must be pretty much an idiot for not using such a good skill anymore. I would say that I almost never use my throwing glaive in boss fights again. Simply because shattering glaive outdps throwing glaive by a lot, and you can't even compare between SG and FG, because SG is just too good compared to FG.

    Don't bring your hours of experience here, because, believe me, I got more experience than you.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • Speaking personally, I love burning leap. Great escape tool for bosses in closed quarters, and it hurts them significantly as I blast past them. In Elite NG ++++ atm. I have alot of mana regen gear socketed though, so I regain power quickly. Rapid fire, burning leap, chaos burst, rest is passives, works very well for me. My guns are extremely good, (dual 4x socket) armor is just a sentinal set. I kill very fast, and can die very fast too. Seems to be a general outlander theme though, so I am ok with it. Pet has Nether Imp 2-5, and is a spider for the web. Does a great job of drawing fire from the ghost archers and axe throwers that can wack off 60%+ of my life on a shot. I won't claim it's the best build, but it's certainly useable endgame. As I farm better equipment, I will know more, but so far, the only outstanding pieces I have are my guns. Seems to be the most critical components for an outlander - reminds me of a Diablo 2 amazon. Good bow = amazing. Bad bow = /cry.

    I have runevault, but I dislike it in most cases since it's easy to get pinned in the tight spaces of some boss rooms and the dragons dungeons with the trolls/gargoyles. It's also good in terms of my ingrained reactions to a charging boss - since I have spent 10+ years using very similar "teleport" mechanics in diablo 2. The "teleport, target and blast" mechanic are just how I am used to playing from thousands of hours on every flavor of character (thanks enigma!).

    At level 1 vault wins in my opinion - gives you alot for one point. At level 15 I feel Burning leap is superior given my playstyle and a decade of muscle memory. It i also, in my opinion, more intuative in it's mechanics. Your mileage may vary. Unlike say, Diablo 2, Torchlight has plenty of skillpoints to throw around, so the post investment for my run'n gun outlander was something I could manage. Other builds might see things differently.

    The only skill I've hit so far that I'd consider "trash" is Banebreath, but I am also willing to consider I built/geared that attempt as a summon outlander wrong when it comes to using it. These devs are pretty clever, and the best part about Torchlight (and the first 2 diablo games) is all the meta gaming that can crop up over time.
  • TrotimTrotim Posts: 107
    Any specific items to gear towards you have in mind?
  • TheGJTheGJ Posts: 1
    I've only played on normal so far (ng+++) and i have stopped using glaive throw. I only use shattering glaive now. Would this still be viable on elite, or is it a bad choice?
  • embermanemberman Posts: 729
    edited February 2013
    I've been running something very close to this build for me no-rerolling no-farming HCE run, currently NG+ level 60 in Act 1 Frosted Hills. What's funny is Cursed Daggers level 11 with the almost 400 focus I have one-shots just about everything in the Frosted Hills (if I wait for the DoT that is). One thing that has helped my survivability is using summon skeleton to keep a constant swarm of 3 skeletons surrounding me. Both my pet and I have summon skeleton archers too. This is not a summoner build nor do I ever intend it to be - the purpose is not powerful summons but numbers (3 skeletons and 3 archers) to keep mobs distracted and not targeting me.
    TheGJ wrote:
    I've only played on normal so far (ng+++) and i have stopped using glaive throw. I only use shattering glaive now. Would this still be viable on elite, or is it a bad choice?

    Shattering Glaive does more damage than Glaive Throw, so it's actually fairly standard to do that. It doesn't build charge though so you'll want to get your charge from somewhere. For me that's glaive throw most of the time.
  • I have a question about only 5 points in glaive throw. 5 points is not the most mana efficient. A quick glance at torchlightarmory tells me 9 points gets you the most damage per mana cost (with 10 points potentially being better due to the extra bounce). 9 points gives you 16% better damage/mana efficiency. So if you are really going for most damage, which would include least manacost/damage ratio so you don't run out of mana, 9 or 10 points would be better. And the added slow % is a bonus.

    Of course there is the opportunity cost of less skill points you could spend elsewhere, but I think that could balance with the fact that in real play if you're running from a boss, you can only get off a glaive toss or two every now and then, and in that situation, a higher level glaive throw gives you MUCH more net damage over time. (while at the same time giving you a bit more damage per mana cost). This opportunity cost may be open for debate, but unless my info was wrong, it's a fact that 5 pts is not the most damage/mana efficient level.

    Any thoughts with regard to this?
  • embermanemberman Posts: 729
    Torchlight armory has been known to be wrong. Can you double check with in game numbers using the console? Normally, for a focus / caster outlander, glaive throw is simply spammed a few times to build charge - most of the damage comes from shattering glaive.
  • emberman wrote:
    Torchlight armory has been known to be wrong. Can you double check with in game numbers using the console? Normally, for a focus / caster outlander, glaive throw is simply spammed a few times to build charge - most of the damage comes from shattering glaive.

    Sure, I'll try to double check that in game later. Also, as far as i can see, this build uses glaive as it's main skill and main source of damage. Am I wrong on that?

    P.S. I don't know how often i've ever typed a sentence starting with "Am"...that felt weird.
  • embermanemberman Posts: 729
    As listed, the primary damage source in this build is actually Cursed Daggers (15/15), with 5/15 Glaive Throw mostly for charge, I imagine. It could also be CD for bosses and GT for normal enemies. Keep in mind this build has a ton of spare skill points to add to whatever you like. For me, that's Blade Pact, Shattering Glaive, and some Sandstorm for tight spaces.
  • emberman wrote:
    As listed, the primary damage source in this build is actually Cursed Daggers (15/15), with 5/15 Glaive Throw mostly for charge, I imagine. It could also be CD for bosses and GT for normal enemies. Keep in mind this build has a ton of spare skill points to add to whatever you like. For me, that's Blade Pact, Shattering Glaive, and some Sandstorm for tight spaces.

    No, glaive is the main damage, he says daggers is just useful on bosses because you don't have time to glaive very much. Upping glaives more will help this problem. Seems to me like a higher level glaive throw is the way to go. Here is his post where it says this:
    son12 wrote:
    Glaive Throw, 5/15
    The main attack skill. 5 points is more than enough, and better for mana efficiency.
    ....

    Cursed Daggers, max
    This is a key skill. On boss fights this skill has helped immensely with the damage reduction as well as its high DoT damage. You're always on the run on boss fights so you don't have time to spam Glaive Throw. I would say on most boss fights act 3 upwards consisted of using Cursed Dagger every 4 seconds, in between renewing Stone Pact, Elemental Protection, Repulsion Hex. Only rarely did the opportunity open up for me to cast Glaive Throws consecutively. While the DoT lasts 4 seconds, the damage reduction lasts 8, which is huge. Also, this skill helps a lot with boss trash.
  • embermanemberman Posts: 729
    danjump wrote:
    emberman wrote:
    As listed, the primary damage source in this build is actually Cursed Daggers (15/15), with 5/15 Glaive Throw mostly for charge, I imagine. It could also be CD for bosses and GT for normal enemies. Keep in mind this build has a ton of spare skill points to add to whatever you like. For me, that's Blade Pact, Shattering Glaive, and some Sandstorm for tight spaces.

    No, glaive is the main damage, he says daggers is just useful on bosses because you don't have time to glaive very much.

    I did say that:
    emberman wrote:
    It could also be CD for bosses and GT for normal enemies.

    It's quite possible that 5/15 Glaive would do more damage than 15/15 Cursed Daggers, because IIRC the poison DoT from CD does not benefit from normal poison damage bonuses.
    danjump wrote:
    Upping glaives more will help this problem. Seems to me like a higher level glaive throw is the way to go. Here is his post where it says this:
    son12 wrote:
    Glaive Throw, 5/15
    The main attack skill. 5 points is more than enough, and better for mana efficiency.
    ....

    Cursed Daggers, max
    This is a key skill. On boss fights this skill has helped immensely with the damage reduction as well as its high DoT damage. You're always on the run on boss fights so you don't have time to spam Glaive Throw. I would say on most boss fights act 3 upwards consisted of using Cursed Dagger every 4 seconds, in between renewing Stone Pact, Elemental Protection, Repulsion Hex. Only rarely did the opportunity open up for me to cast Glaive Throws consecutively. While the DoT lasts 4 seconds, the damage reduction lasts 8, which is huge. Also, this skill helps a lot with boss trash.

    Curiosity got the better of me and I went into the console and wrote down the damage numbers for a naked level 92 character. I don't think the Skill Calculator at Torchlight Armory lets you set the player level. Its damage numbers are thus all wrong but its mana costs are correct. Using the in-game damage numbers, it turns out that in terms of damage per mana point, level 5 Glaive Throw is optimal for mobs and level 1 is optimal for bosses, which is consistent with what I vaguely remember reading before. If you want to check the math yourself, just use the mana costs from the armory skill calculator, and the following damage numbers. At level 92, minimum damage is always 2591, and maximum damage at level 1 GT is 3109. For every rank up in GT, maximum damage goes up by about 129-130, so average damage goes up by approximately 65. It hits 2 targets pre-tier 1, 3 at tier 1, 4 at tier 2, and 5 at tier 3 (use that as a multiplier when computing mob damage).
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