Shooty Summoner Build

TommyReslinTommyReslin Posts: 278
edited April 2013 in Outlander Discussions
I'm going to talk about the Shooty Summoner. Something I have been working with a long time on trying to make it a viable alternative to the other builds out there. I believe I have mostly succeeded. This build can survive on Elite difficulty but it isn't easy. There will be frustration at times and even deaths. In the end I found it very rewarding. Potions will be a necessary evil for this build to work. It is not as powerful as a Shooty Lander or as powerful as a Glaive User. This is playing the game on hard mode. With this disclaimer out of the way..

Shotgun Summoner

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Pistol Summoner

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Venomous Hail/Stone Pact

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So this is the build. A very odd build compared to what many of you are already used to. As mentioned above this build is not the best build in the game but in my opinion it's probably the most ideal build for a ranged summoner. Now I'm going to break down each skill and explain why I picked it and some of them what they can be substituted for. Then I'll explain why I omitted certain skills and provide a list of stats you want to focus on when looking for upgrades in gear.

Warfare

Rune Vault: The first most important skill you can possible grab for elite is Rune Vault. You cannot go without this. It would be far too painful to omit this skill once you reach New Game+ and later. This is the best escape tool that we have. It's mana efficient at one point, quick, and enables you to avoid moves that are fully capable of one shotting you. You want to leave this skill at one.

Cursed Daggers: Another amazing skill. The poison scales with focus and poison% gear so we're not going to put many points here. This build is for a Shooty Summoner. However, with one point you knock off 20% of the enemies damage. Great at keeping both you and your minions alive a little bit longer while providing some dot. It also lights up your targets making them easier to see/follow. Not that great of a benefit but a benefit nonetheless.

Rapid Fire: This can be substituted in place of Shadowshot. Most favor this skill for shooty lander builds. I however prefer Shadowshot especially when using a Shotgun. Shadowshot can be fired from longer range, has semi tracking abilities, and is great crowd control. The same can be said for Rapid Fire on certain levels but that's my preference. I'll go over Shadow Shot more when I get there. Either 10 points or 0. Your choice.

Chaos Burst: The same with Rapid Fire in a sense. If you really like this skill put 10 points here or none. Note if you pick Chaos or Rapid drop Shadowshot. Personally I'm not a big fan of this skill. There's just so many situations where the extra bounces never hit anything.

Venomous Hail: Now here's an incredible skill. I cannot say enough good about this skill. It is amazing. The dps with 10 points into it is incredible. It can easily reach places that you struggle hitting with your guns and/or can't hit. You can also position yourself so you can't be targeted while firing this baby off and doing damage. In fact if you really like the skill you can make it your primary attack. Drop Shadowshot (and any of the other attacks) and throw the ten points into Stone Pact.

Long Range Mastery: This is a must no matter if you decide to stick with shotguns or pick something else. It increases damage and range if you pick other weapons and damage if you pick Shotguns (but not ranged. It does NOT increase Shotgun range.)

Shotgonne Mastery: I put 15 points here. If you're going Shotgonne you want 15 points in this (unless you pick Rapid Fire.) to be brutally honest. Shotgonne is underpowered but I do like the effects garnered by this skill but this is a guide and elite is a very harsh place. So I'm going to discuss what you gain and what you lose picking this skill. 15 points nets you.. 60% chance to stun a target for 2 seconds, +45 knock back, 90% chance for 67% blindness. I picked this because it has good synergy with my minions. The knockback when combined with shadowshot can keep enemies at bay the stun and blindness are just toppings on the cake. This helps keep your minions alive and things away from you. Unfortunately by picking this skill and by proxy a Shotgun you lose two slots from your off hand, Akimbo mastery which is 30% additional damage and a good block rate if you're using a shield in your off hand.

Is it worth losing those bonuses? That's up to you. I find shotguns work for me. I am level 100 on Elite. I don't have a problem surviving but to be quite honest a shield and pistol is probably a superior option. So why include it? The focus is viable alternatives to the norm and this build is viable on elite difficulty. Shotguns aren't very popular but they work with this setup.

Lore

Tangling Shot: I put this at five. If you want to free up points you can leave it at one. I like the extended radius in my testing. Another personal preference of mine and your mileage may vary. No matter what you do you want to pick this up. It's worth at least one point. This skill will slow enemies down. It will keep you alive and allow you to kite. I don't think I could have gotten as far as I have without this and rune vault.

Dodge Mastery: You want this at 15. Dodge = survivability. To dodge an attack is to mitigate the damage to 0. This will keep you alive and make the game so much less frustrating. I don't think elite is even playable without maxing this. This is absolutely necessary. Get it.

Share The Wealth: Another must have skill. This skill works on both you and your allies. This is very important. This is great in teamplay and a great benefit to your pets. Even if you play solo it works on you. This is a must have and helps reach the dodge cap all that much sooner.

Sigil

Shadowshot: 10 or 0 points. Your pick. Many of you might be wondering why I took this skill. Shadowshot in most situations is very sub par compared to other weapon skills. However, I found when fighting big creatures the knockback enables the other shots to double around and hit the same target multiple times while keeping it far away from you. It also has great aoe potential in that when there's a room chock full of creatures it will hit them all and it will spread blindness/stuns around to everything else. It also is a great tool in that you can snipe with it, which is why I picked the skill in the first place. Sometimes this skill will outright frustrate you and **** you off. Also when you learn how it works you can find things to hit and "bounce" it off of. It is not necessary to make this build work, however. So take it or leave it.

Stone Pact: If you have no active combat skill other than Venomous hail I would say grab this skill. You can also substract skills from elsewhere (I mention various times I added more to this skill or that as a personal preference) to put points here. This skills is incredible. It heals you, increases your armor, heals your pets, and does the same to them. It provides excellent mitigation and lowers your usage of pots. Without this skill you're going to find that you'll use pots quite a bit but they're cheap and easy to find making them a poor albeit viable alternative. You want at least 10 points here or 0. I do without this skill and I'm doing fine.

Brute, Shadow Ammo, Death Ritual: I am putting all of these in the same category. Death ritual keeps your pets alive and increases their effectiveness. Shadow Ammo increases your chance to spawn shadowlings and brute increases brute effectiveness. I maxed all of these skills. I do not rely on them. I do have them maxed but they are NOT expected to kill for me. They exist as distractions. They exist to keep things away from me or at least slow them down. I also look at them as mini dots when they do last enough to get a few hits in. Read the tooltip for Shadowlings as "A chance to spawn a momentary distraction." and you'll be much happier with the skill as a whole.

Stats And Gear

That concludes the skill choices. So now on to stats and gear.

Stats are very simple. You want 109 Dex. Everything into Strength. No points in focus. No points in vitality. Both are entirely useless to you. Near the end of the game One gear with good +hp or one skull will give you more HP than vitality ever will. Enchnts will get you max block on a shield easily enough while aiming for strength. Most end game shields have a very high block rate anyway if you go shield. You only want 109 dex. I've already in another thread show cased that if you put all your points into strength and someone put 277 points in dex to equip the best pistol in the game and best gear by level 80. The level 80 with all of his points in strength will still out damage the guy with far superior gear. Once you hit 109 dex. You don't want anything else in Dex. Do not dump points into this stat.

Gear: For gear you want to look for (in this order)

Strength, % Ranged Damage Bonus, Crit Hit, Crit Damage, Damage Reduction, and HP+

Don't go overboard on crit hit damage. There is a cap. The cap is 500% you want to hit this cap but once you do. Don't get anymore. You can also put physical damage increases in your weapon slots if you have good crit and max crit hit damage.

I have with enchants, skulls, etc..

1173 Strength 399.6% Crit hit damage from strength alone. 500% total and 586% weapon damage. My base damage is 10,454. I can hit in the 100k range with Shadow Shot and I have 60% Damage Reduction. None of my gear has the cheater tag. My hp is 13,434 and have clocked an ungodly amount of hours into the game. If anyone has questions or critcisms go for it. For those who know me they can vouch I will listen to both reason and math. I will not flip out if I'm told I'm wrong and as long as it can be backed up. If there's any false information in this guide. I'd love to hear it.

*Edit* My way isn't the only way. In my guide I mentioned other alternatives to my choices. I'll make a build for different variations
Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
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Comments

  • ShamcrankShamcrank Posts: 145
    I had to post to let you know that when you replied to my thread earlier I came up with your same exact shotgun build before I had looked at your guide. :lol:

    Thanks for the guides ;)

    EDIT: ah there is one difference, I went for less points in LRM and threw them into Blade Pact since i figured the armor reduction would help my minions and me more than the extra couple %dmg and tiny bit of range would.
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  • IechinokIechinok Posts: 140
    Tommy, I'd recommend trying out Bramble Wall with your Shotgonne build. The reason I recommend it is due to the fact that it can act as a defense, but not only that; it can also act as fodder to summon your Shadowlings, as well as to fill your charge bar.
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  • Iechinok wrote:
    Tommy, I'd recommend trying out Bramble Wall with your Shotgonne build. The reason I recommend it is due to the fact that it can act as a defense, but not only that; it can also act as fodder to summon your Shadowlings, as well as to fill your charge bar.

    Good point. I'm actually fully aware of this and have offered this advice to others. The problem is that the build is pretty tight as is. Still, points can be removed from tangle shot for both 1 point in glaive sweep and 1 point in Bramble Wall if you want to go this route. In the end I chose not to because this build mostly uses the summons as a means to keep enemies away from me but isn't totally reliant on minions either. They're just a bonus that aid in my survivability. So the style plays just like a Shooty Outlander not really worrying about creating minions. They just "Happen" as you kill stuff. Hope that makes sense but as I mentioned. If you're more comfortable removing points from elsewhere to grab bramble wall there's nothing wrong with that. I'd leave it at one point, however. In elite the wall goes down pretty quick.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • IechinokIechinok Posts: 140
    Iechinok wrote:
    Tommy, I'd recommend trying out Bramble Wall with your Shotgonne build. The reason I recommend it is due to the fact that it can act as a defense, but not only that; it can also act as fodder to summon your Shadowlings, as well as to fill your charge bar.

    Good point. I'm actually fully aware of this and have offered this advice to others. The problem is that the build is pretty tight as is. Still, points can be removed from tangle shot for both 1 point in glaive sweep and 1 point in Bramble Wall if you want to go this route. In the end I chose not to because this build mostly uses the summons as a means to keep enemies away from me but isn't totally reliant on minions either. They're just a bonus that aid in my survivability. So the style plays just like a Shooty Outlander not really worrying about creating minions. They just "Happen" as you kill stuff. Hope that makes sense but as I mentioned. If you're more comfortable removing points from elsewhere to grab bramble wall there's nothing wrong with that. I'd leave it at one point, however. In elite the wall goes down pretty quick.


    Very true, I see where you're comin' from. I play a summonlander, and for me, Bramble becomes a must for multiple reasons.

    I'll try out a high Bramble investment build to see if it'd be worth it in a Shootylander build like yours, although I think Shotgonnes would make the most out of it for multiple reasons. The cool thing I find is that you can sort of set up an alley of Brambles as you go along and kite back toward the previous ones, while the brambles distract the enemies like the summons would do. The extra length, duration, and ability to damage enemies might be worth it, providing the points can be spared; especially considering how great of a resource builder it is (Charge for Share the Wealth, and virtually infinite Shadowling spawner via breaking it)

    I completely agree, though, that it'd also be great as a 1-pointer due to the ability to keep summons and charge up at all times, especially with how quick you can tear it down with the shotgonne's aoe attacks. Afterall, the summons serve to be your distraction, and it can keep them up.
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  • RobotRobot Posts: 10
    Nice build there for a shooty outlander. Glad that someone out there still uses shadowshot.

    My current outlander build is somewhat similar except I dont have brute but uses shadowling ammo only and I'm using dual-pistol with no shield.

    I have something interesting to add/suggest on to your build.
    1.I find it useful to pair shadowshot with poison burst as it procs very well with it. While the minions tank and agro the mobs, shadowshot+poison burst really kills them very fast.
    2.Currently, I'm equipped with 4 piece of dragonrift and 2 piece of inquisitor set, i get the benefits of 20% health steal and 1% mana steal, it works wonder. Since your build have high hp/crit dmg and can avoid most 1 hit death, the health steal (auto-attack) can really replenish your hp very fast. The 1% mana steal allows you to spam shadowshot almost non-stop.

    Just my suggestion and sorry for my badly constructed sentence. Feel free to comment/critic my suggestion, I don't mind.
  • Robot wrote:
    Nice build there for a shooty outlander. Glad that someone out there still uses shadowshot.

    My current outlander build is somewhat similar except I dont have brute but uses shadowling ammo only and I'm using dual-pistol with no shield.

    I have something interesting to add/suggest on to your build.
    1.I find it useful to pair shadowshot with poison burst as it procs very well with it. While the minions tank and agro the mobs, shadowshot+poison burst really kills them very fast.
    2.Currently, I'm equipped with 4 piece of dragonrift and 2 piece of inquisitor set, i get the benefits of 20% health steal and 1% mana steal, it works wonder. Since your build have high hp/crit dmg and can avoid most 1 hit death, the health steal (auto-attack) can really replenish your hp very fast. The 1% mana steal allows you to spam shadowshot almost non-stop.

    Just my suggestion and sorry for my badly constructed sentence. Feel free to comment/critic my suggestion, I don't mind.

    The problem with Poison Burst is that it doesn't stack up well with Shadowling ammo. If a creature explodes from poison burst you won't get a minion and vice versa. So there isn't much synergy there and it actually lowers your chances in spawning Shadowlings. This is why I put no points into it. :P
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • Hey Tommy,

    Is it my imagination, or do kills by summons not give fame? I've been noticing that I don't get the usual indication that I get fame for my summon's kills of champions and the like. I'm going to keep a close eye on my experience and fame the next time I meet a champion, but I thought it'd be nice to get confirmation from other people who've playtested a summoner build.
  • mrbunnyban wrote:
    Hey Tommy,

    Is it my imagination, or do kills by summons not give fame? I've been noticing that I don't get the usual indication that I get fame for my summon's kills of champions and the like. I'm going to keep a close eye on my experience and fame the next time I meet a champion, but I thought it'd be nice to get confirmation from other people who've playtested a summoner build.

    Honestly this is something that has never occurred to me and I haven't been paying close enough attention to (partly because there's so many numbers that come up) have noticed. I'm going to look into this when I have time. Thanks for bringing it up! Also if you're interested in doing further tests that will be great too. :)
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • IndimionIndimion Posts: 136
    I am thinking of a pistol slinger for a build, why do you go with rapid fire?
  • mrbunnyban wrote:
    Hey Tommy,

    Is it my imagination, or do kills by summons not give fame? I've been noticing that I don't get the usual indication that I get fame for my summon's kills of champions and the like. I'm going to keep a close eye on my experience and fame the next time I meet a champion, but I thought it'd be nice to get confirmation from other people who've playtested a summoner build.

    Honestly this is something that has never occurred to me and I haven't been paying close enough attention to (partly because there's so many numbers that come up) have noticed. I'm going to look into this when I have time. Thanks for bringing it up! Also if you're interested in doing further tests that will be great too. :)

    Okay, just tested. *phew* Its fine, the summons do give exp and fame, its just that you don't get the usual fame indication over your head unless you've just levelled up from it. Fame and exp do go up after my summons drop the champion. Its hard to see if it was my pet or the legion of things I summoned which struck the last blow because my character sheet was covering half the screen while I kite for dear life, but after two champions and I'd think it was my summons.

    Edit: I'm trying my own variation with very similar ideas, btw. Leaning towards a pistol/shield build which mainly relies on spell summons and supportive skills rather than shadowlings. I find that the skeleton archers hit hard and are much more reliable than shadowlings. Worst issues so far is having too many 1-point wonder skills to throw around and managing them all is a big hassle.

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  • Indimion wrote:
    I am thinking of a pistol slinger for a build, why do you go with rapid fire?

    Rapid Fire is the most damaging and provides the highest dps of any of our other physical skills. Which makes it ideal for the use with a Pistol which is a very fast high dps weapon. You can, however, swap out rapid fire for Chaos Burst or even Shadowshot neither of these options will cripple you. The reason I recommend Shadowshot over rapid fire on a Shotgun user is knockback. Pistols have a very low knockback whereas the Shotgun has a high knock back (especially so if you max shotgun mastery) meaning Rapid Fire will push your intended targets outside of it's range forcing you to give chase. This doesn't happen with the Pistol. The Shotgun also has great crowd control potential and Shadowshot allows you to tag nearly everything on the screen with blind not to mention the knockback from shotguns enables the other "shots" to double back and hit the boss. You don't really get this benefit from pistols.

    So pretty much Chaos Burst and Rapid Fire is more ideal for Pistol use.

    As to the more recent poster. Good to know Summons don't make you lose fame. Also I do use spell summons on my pet. My pet has all of it's slots filled with summons except one which is heal all. Which heals both you and your minions. I prefer to use passives on my character to increase my performance without taking up slots on my bar. Of course your mileage may vary and the spells are personal preference.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • Huh, my Shooty Summoner is built on a Berserker, with a Crossbow instead of Claws. No ranged bonuses, so look for that on clothing to stack up, the main advantage is the high Mobility/Healing from Shadow Burst, Wolfshade, and Savage Rush. This means you can play keepaway, with a Pistol/Blade combo in the offhands for CQC. I know, wrong sub-forum, but it's basically playing a Berserker as an Outlander, for the Summon, and maneuvering skills/healing. Even got an Ice Hatchet for the Glaive (Which is usually a polearm everywhere else but here, and Krull ;)

    I like playing roles opposite their intended niche, so my Outlander is set up for the Melee'. Which isn't to say stand there, and swing, she's a shooter, but point blank, instead of at range. This means Shotty, with Mastery, and Rapid Fire to really pour it on. (Mapped to Left Click, so it's the default attack if she has the Mana.) Glaive Sweep is a quick weeny wacker for when she does get surrounded, and doesn't want to swap out. To a Pistol/blade combo, whatever's clever, really depends on what you can find. This is paired with Rune Vault for backstabs, and Cursed Daggers for a spread shot. That way,both combos have a radial AoE, spread shot, and accurate ranged shot always at hand.

    Passives are almost exclusively Sg, and Ranged Mastery.
    No, I am not "Doing it wrong." Please don't bother telling me that.
  • alyyalyy Posts: 64
    Huh, my Shooty Summoner is built on a Berserker, with a Crossbow instead of Claws. No ranged bonuses, so look for that on clothing to stack up, the main advantage is the high Mobility/Healing from Shadow Burst, Wolfshade, and Savage Rush. This means you can play keepaway, with a Pistol/Blade combo in the offhands for CQC. I know, wrong sub-forum, but it's basically playing a Berserker as an Outlander, for the Summon, and maneuvering skills/healing. Even got an Ice Hatchet for the Glaive (Which is usually a polearm everywhere else but here, and Krull ;)

    I like playing roles opposite their intended niche, so my Outlander is set up for the Melee'. Which isn't to say stand there, and swing, she's a shooter, but point blank, instead of at range. This means Shotty, with Mastery, and Rapid Fire to really pour it on. (Mapped to Left Click, so it's the default attack if she has the Mana.) Glaive Sweep is a quick weeny wacker for when she does get surrounded, and doesn't want to swap out. To a Pistol/blade combo, whatever's clever, really depends on what you can find. This is paired with Rune Vault for backstabs, and Cursed Daggers for a spread shot. That way,both combos have a radial AoE, spread shot, and accurate ranged shot always at hand.

    Passives are almost exclusively Sg, and Ranged Mastery.

    Interesting. What difficulty are you on?
  • alyy wrote:
    Huh, my Shooty Summoner is built on a Berserker, with a Crossbow instead of Claws. No ranged bonuses, so look for that on clothing to stack up, the main advantage is the high Mobility/Healing from Shadow Burst, Wolfshade, and Savage Rush. This means you can play keepaway, with a Pistol/Blade combo in the offhands for CQC. I know, wrong sub-forum, but it's basically playing a Berserker as an Outlander, for the Summon, and maneuvering skills/healing. Even got an Ice Hatchet for the Glaive (Which is usually a polearm everywhere else but here, and Krull ;)

    I like playing roles opposite their intended niche, so my Outlander is set up for the Melee'. Which isn't to say stand there, and swing, she's a shooter, but point blank, instead of at range. This means Shotty, with Mastery, and Rapid Fire to really pour it on. (Mapped to Left Click, so it's the default attack if she has the Mana.) Glaive Sweep is a quick weeny wacker for when she does get surrounded, and doesn't want to swap out. To a Pistol/blade combo, whatever's clever, really depends on what you can find. This is paired with Rune Vault for backstabs, and Cursed Daggers for a spread shot. That way,both combos have a radial AoE, spread shot, and accurate ranged shot always at hand.

    Passives are almost exclusively Sg, and Ranged Mastery.

    Interesting. What difficulty are you on?

    The Berserker is Veteran, I believe the Point Blank Outlander is Normal, because that was my first playthrough in this class. I have multiple builds, and set the difficulty for them. If it's experimental, or Just For Fun, usually Normal, or Veteran. Min/max builds to demonstrate the maximum power I can get out of a given class are mostly Epic, but I've only beaten the Achemist on that difficulty once (With an Engineer.)
    No, I am not "Doing it wrong." Please don't bother telling me that.
  • IechinokIechinok Posts: 140
    Just wanted to update about Bramble Wall. I've come to find that 15 Bramble wall is actually pretty amazing. With stat allocations as such: 2 str, 2 focus, and 1 into dex every level, it does exceptionally well.

    At 5, it starts to do poison damage to enemies, giving it the ability to be boosted by Master of Elements, and at level 10, the wall becomes a half-circle, giving great defense and even more targets to proc your minions from as well as heal from lifesteal.

    The *real* kicker is at level 15. At 15, it lets out a constant cloud of poison gas, poisoning the enemy and doing damage over time. This weakens them and makes it *much* easier to set up for a Bane Breath build behind the Bramble wall, especially when combined with Master of Elements. The wall also makes it slightly easier to target with Bane Breath, due to being able to target your bramble instead. This makes it so that, when positioned behind the wall, you'll shoot through the bramble and at the target, instead of trying to run around the wall to do it.

    The wall especially shines when you're using a shotgonne, due to all of the targets available. Not only are the monsters distracted by the wall, they're sitting targets as they do so. This combined with the fact that lifesteal and manaleech are activated by damage done to your own bramble, and how you can summon your minions and top up your charge with it, make it amazing for a defensive, summoning Shotgonne user. :D
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  • Iechinok wrote:
    Just wanted to update about Bramble Wall. I've come to find that 15 Bramble wall is actually pretty amazing. With stat allocations as such: 2 str, 2 focus, and 1 into dex every level, it does exceptionally well.

    At 5, it starts to do poison damage to enemies, giving it the ability to be boosted by Master of Elements, and at level 10, the wall becomes a half-circle, giving great defense and even more targets to proc your minions from as well as heal from lifesteal.

    The *real* kicker is at level 15. At 15, it lets out a constant cloud of poison gas, poisoning the enemy and doing damage over time. This weakens them and makes it *much* easier to set up for a Bane Breath build behind the Bramble wall, especially when combined with Master of Elements. The wall also makes it slightly easier to target with Bane Breath, due to being able to target your bramble instead. This makes it so that, when positioned behind the wall, you'll shoot through the bramble and at the target, instead of trying to run around the wall to do it.

    The wall especially shines when you're using a shotgonne, due to all of the targets available. Not only are the monsters distracted by the wall, they're sitting targets as they do so. This combined with the fact that lifesteal and manaleech are activated by damage done to your own bramble, and how you can summon your minions and top up your charge with it, make it amazing for a defensive, summoning Shotgonne user. :D

    There's a few potential possible issues. BaneBreath requires something to die from the bane breath dot in order to spawn a minion. Does the poison damage stack from bramble wall or is there two different dot sources inflicting damage? If that's the case it's possible if they die from bramble it won't spawn a minion even if they're already tagged with bane breath (I.E. the bramble dot kills them first). This is something that would need to be tested extensively. Also this build is designed for elite. Have you tested how well a rank 15 bramble lasts and it's effectiveness on elite difficulty? From my (admittedly) limited testing in the higher New Game + difficulty bramble goes down very quickly. Not to say it's useless but it's why I don't suggest pouring points into it either. If you can test this further that'd be great. :) Life Steal and Mana leach I feel to be sub optimal. In elite you'll die faster than life leach can help you. As for mana leach if you're forced to do auto attacks you're losing out on doing dps with your weapon skills. It shouldn't be necessary.

    Just some things to think about.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • IechinokIechinok Posts: 140
    I'm going to try testing a 15 point bramble wall in Elite difficulty very soon. :D Hopefully the scaling for it at higher levels gives it a way to hold out.

    I've also thought of a strategy where you can cast a wall pre-emptively, walk forward, and then cast a second wave, so you can snipe while gathering resources.

    Hmm, I'm not entirely sure about Bane and Bramble stacking, so I'll have to check that out, but I did find out that (without any armor or bonus stats at 100, while using the 2 str, 2 focus, 1 dex build) Bramble can hit a base of about 7k poison damage, and then the cloud does around 4.5k damage over 4 seconds. Also, seeing as poison's elemental effect lowers their damage and armor by 33%, that seems like a pretty nice feature, and could help cut back on the damage done to the wall. This is *without* Master of Elements. Haven't tested it with yet.

    Lifesteal or Manaleech weapons are always nice to have as a secondary, but the *type* of these features is what determines their usefulness. Generally speaking, Percent-based lifesteal is better, as is percent-based manaleech, but that's usually after a certain threshold of damage. If you combine something like that from a set effect or weapon enchant with Stone pact and the fact that you can hit your Bramble, you can really come up with a crazy amount of recovery for those moments that you have to be on the outskirts of battle.

    Sure, you lose a bit of DPS on a group of mobs, but that's the point of a secondary weapon: to have another function than what you normally use to damage the bejeezus out of stuff.

    I *will* say this, though. The monsters that seem to have the easiest time with the Bramble Wall are either the Swift ones that come out every other blue moon, or the ones that have incredibly damaging charge attacks.

    I'll make sure to test out whether Bramble's DoT stacks with Bane Breath's, and also compare the base damage of the two. Personally, when it comes down to it, if Bane Breath can outdamage Bramble's DoT in the 2 seconds that it's up, that would already nearly trivialize the chance on Bane not getting the finishing hit, although I personally still feel that *any* source of death for the mob while Bane's up should make minions spawn.

    When I find out about the DoT stacking, I'll make sure to post it.
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  • The problem with mana leach and life leach is that you need to be auto attacking to get the effects and really if you build right you shouldn't be auto attacking much if at all. Another problem with putting any points into focus is that every point in focus decreases your overall damage ouput. To be honest 7k damage isn't a lot of damage at all at level 100. As mentioned I can pull 100k-120k damage. This damage would be significantly cut had a chunk of those stats went into focus instead. You get very little benefit from stacking focus over strength. Eventually you'll be farming for gold to get all your gear enchanted with strength which will leave you with plenty of *extra* points left over for focus.

    Another problem with life gaining mitigation is that in elite new game+++ there are enemies that will one shot you and if they don't stone pact is good enough as is avoiding the attacks entirely. Life steal isn't necessary because what doesn't one shot you won't kill you anyway and what does makes the health steal useless. Just some more food for thought.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • The problem with mana leach and life leach is that you need to be auto attacking to get the effects and really if you build right you shouldn't be auto attacking much if at all. Another problem with putting any points into focus is that every point in focus decreases your overall damage ouput. To be honest 7k damage isn't a lot of damage at all at level 100. As mentioned I can pull 100k-120k damage. This damage would be significantly cut had a chunk of those stats went into focus instead. You get very little benefit from stacking focus over strength. Eventually you'll be farming for gold to get all your gear enchanted with strength which will leave you with plenty of *extra* points left over for focus.

    Another problem with life gaining mitigation is that in elite new game+++ there are enemies that will one shot you and if they don't stone pact is good enough as is avoiding the attacks entirely. Life steal isn't necessary because what doesn't one shot you won't kill you anyway and what does makes the health steal useless. Just some more food for thought.

    For Embermage, I do use Draining (Mana Leech) a lot, because Mana is your bread, and butter. This is why I also invest almost exclusively in Focus. When you inevitably run out, there's always Potions, but a few Very Fast attacks with Draining (Usually on Wands) recover you faster, and keep the elemental damage coming. Other classes use Charge more to augment Mana, and base their Actives' damage off Weapon Damage/DPS. Focus buffs Mana pool, Spell/Active damage, and Execute chance, so dual wands seems to be the most efficient use of Draining, if they're both enchanted with it. I Slotted one with the Ember you get from Act II, and the other came with it out of the box. (My generalist EM "Wanda", not the Storm Mage Mjoldin.) I also lucked out with a wand that randomly casts Meteor on strike, and the other increases the odds of Execute. There's also some worn Ember/enchantments in there.

    I still have Offensive spells mapped to Lclick, the wands autoattack when there's "Not Enough Mana". This means I can just keep clicking, and hit X. Once you run out of blue juice, you can just alternate between Wands, and Firey Spear, or whatever, the autoattacks recharging for for the Active. You want the fastest casting wands, and highest Execute chance to maximize this. You're right about Health on Embermages' weapons, though. Those work better for Berserkers, and Tank Engineers, so I store my Blood Ember in the shared stash for those characters. Outlander (Played normally) is similar to EM, in that they do better with Draining than Vampiric weapons, but with dual wield, and/or slotted pre-enchanted weapons, you can have both.
    No, I am not "Doing it wrong." Please don't bother telling me that.
  • The problem with mana leach and life leach is that you need to be auto attacking to get the effects and really if you build right you shouldn't be auto attacking much if at all. Another problem with putting any points into focus is that every point in focus decreases your overall damage ouput. To be honest 7k damage isn't a lot of damage at all at level 100. As mentioned I can pull 100k-120k damage. This damage would be significantly cut had a chunk of those stats went into focus instead. You get very little benefit from stacking focus over strength. Eventually you'll be farming for gold to get all your gear enchanted with strength which will leave you with plenty of *extra* points left over for focus.

    Another problem with life gaining mitigation is that in elite new game+++ there are enemies that will one shot you and if they don't stone pact is good enough as is avoiding the attacks entirely. Life steal isn't necessary because what doesn't one shot you won't kill you anyway and what does makes the health steal useless. Just some more food for thought.

    For Embermage, I do use Draining (Mana Leech) a lot, because Mana is your bread, and butter. This is why I also invest almost exclusively in Focus. When you inevitably run out, there's always Potions, but a few Very Fast attacks with Draining (Usually on Wands) recover you faster, and keep the elemental damage coming. Other classes use Charge more to augment Mana, and base their Actives' damage off Weapon Damage/DPS. Focus buffs Mana pool, Spell/Active damage, and Execute chance, so dual wands seems to be the most efficient use of Draining, if they're both enchanted with it. I Slotted one with the Ember you get from Act II, and the other came with it out of the box. (My generalist EM "Wanda", not the Storm Mage Mjoldin.) I also lucked out with a wand that randomly casts Meteor on strike, and the other increases the odds of Execute. There's also some worn Ember/enchantments in there.

    I still have Offensive spells mapped to Lclick, the wands autoattack when there's "Not Enough Mana". This means I can just keep clicking, and hit X. Once you run out of blue juice, you can just alternate between Wands, and Firey Spear, or whatever, the autoattacks recharging for for the Active. You want the fastest casting wands, and highest Execute chance to maximize this. You're right about Health on Embermages' weapons, though. Those work better for Berserkers, and Tank Engineers, so I store my Blood Ember in the shared stash for those characters. Outlander (Played normally) is similar to EM, in that they do better with Draining than Vampiric weapons, but with dual wield, and/or slotted pre-enchanted weapons, you can have both.

    This is an outlander build and with only 10 pointsi n your main weapon skill you typically don't run out of mana later in the game.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • jdean300jdean300 Posts: 211
    Thanks for posting this guide! I'm about to start something similar but I am reworking the build since im running it on HCE. Will be running with a crossbow to stay far from the action, Stone Pact, and Shadowmantle. Basically taking out Shotgun Mastery (obviously), Venomous Hail, and Tangle Shot. I'm going heavily into the summoner aspect and the spells I choose will reflect that, hoping to keep more heat off of me for HCE. Questions:

    1) Is Shadow Shot sufficient DPS later on? My intent is to stack pet and minion gear, but they cant kill that fast on there own.
    2) Does Share The Wealth benefit your summoned minions?
    3) How necessary would you think Tangle Shot is for this build? Without it I'm getting 5 more points for Stone Pact or Shadowmantle. Is the crossbows greater range a good substitute for TS?
    HCE Characters
    BrutalEngine - 37/22 Cannoneer
    CreativeEngine - 76/100 Summon Engi NG++++ Beaten
    BurningCold - 65 Frost/PB Mage
    Vanguard - 23/30 Shotty Outlander
  • jdean300 wrote:
    Thanks for posting this guide! I'm about to start something similar but I am reworking the build since im running it on HCE. Will be running with a crossbow to stay far from the action, Stone Pact, and Shadowmantle. Basically taking out Shotgun Mastery (obviously), Venomous Hail, and Tangle Shot. I'm going heavily into the summoner aspect and the spells I choose will reflect that, hoping to keep more heat off of me for HCE. Questions:

    1) Is Shadow Shot sufficient DPS later on? My intent is to stack pet and minion gear, but they cant kill that fast on there own.
    2) Does Share The Wealth benefit your summoned minions?
    3) How necessary would you think Tangle Shot is for this build? Without it I'm getting 5 more points for Stone Pact or Shadowmantle. Is the crossbows greater range a good substitute for TS?

    I personally wouldn't worry about + minion gear. I tried it to test it out but in the end the minions were hitting for around 4k-7k each end game. While that might seem like a lot realize I can pump out around 100k-120k with a single shot of Shadowshot. Then if the multiple streams double back and hit the same target they strike for 50k-80k damage each. It's better to aim for strength gear as the minions simply cannot compare to your own damage output. I took them as a means of distraction to keep enemies away from me. With that being said.. yes Shadowshot can do great dps. Stonepact is great for survival but I wouldn't remove venomous hail. In elite certain mobs can drop you really fast. Venomous hail allows you to hit ranged attackers that your other skills simply won't let you touch. I'd recommend if you really don't want to use the skill at least drop a single point in it. It has amazing utility. Of course in the end it's your character but just a suggestion. Tangle shot is great for keeping bosses and other big quick moving creatures that can one shot you away.

    Bosses will typically ignore your pets. Snaring them so you can kite them around can be rather efficient. As for share the wealth, I haven't properly tested it with minions but I will say it does say "Pets and allies" I am 88% sure that it effects our minions but I am also pretty sure if you have pet summons it doesn't effect them. Another advantage of show shot is that it travels a great distance making it a good "sniping" skill. All in all I wish you luck. :)
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • jdean300 wrote:
    ...Is the crossbows greater range a good substitute for TS?
    ...Another advantage of show shot is that it travels a great distance making it a good "sniping" skill. All in all I wish you luck. :)
    Yes, Crossbow's range make them great for sniping, even other rangers, who typically can't shoot as far. In a lot of areas, you have them on high ground where they can't come down, like the Mesa in Act II, but you can shoot them. Then you climb up, do a walkaround to see who you can see below. With Long Range Mastery perked out, eventually you can shoot anything you can see, as long as it's not behind cover. Shadowshot, and Venom Hail will reach them too, but I'd call it a waste of mana. I use the jump skills (Rune vault is tricky, because you have to click away from where you want to go, but Burning Leap is great!) to cover the map quickly, so outside, you can take advantage of these situations with autoattacks while you recharge, or at least not run it down before you move along. Also, if you get ambushed (assuming you didn't already clear the area around you, it happens in the desert) you're not already depleted. As an outlander, i usually carry a shotty, and a crossbow regardless of everything else for the extremes of Range, they're just that handy that they earn the spot in your inventory, even if they're not set up as one of your mains. I also like to think it's in character, Outlanders are Nomad survivalists (so am I, and an Engineer on top of that) so the type to carry a Rifle (Xbow in this game) shotgun, and possibly 2 pistols for different kinds of fights/backups. "It's better to have it, and not need it than the other way 'round." If it's just the situations where you're in no danger, you have plenty of time to go into Inventory, swap in the sniper bow, and pick a good spot to shoot from. That's really what sniping is all about.
    No, I am not "Doing it wrong." Please don't bother telling me that.
  • ScylesScyles Posts: 63
    jdean300 wrote:
    1) Is Shadow Shot sufficient DPS later on?
    With "conveys X dmg" affixes and socketables, Shadow Shot deals massive, massive damage to small groups. It will fail you when there are a large number of targets.

    I'm starting to think Shadow Shot is one of the highest DPS skills in the game against single targets. Your DPS is mainly limited by your mana pool. Cast speed scales with weapon attack speed, so I was using a pistol with an extremely high rate of fire.
  • jdean300jdean300 Posts: 211
    Alright from these suggestion I've dropped 1 point from death ritual to get tangle shot, 5 from Shadowmantle(Figure it's easily replaced by gear) and 5 from Share The Wealth in order to push VH to ten. So I'm looking at this: [LINK DELETED]

    Only level 15 atm, but I'm so glad I got an early drop of Summon Skeleton. Things got a lot easier once I had 4 skeletons running around.
    HCE Characters
    BrutalEngine - 37/22 Cannoneer
    CreativeEngine - 76/100 Summon Engi NG++++ Beaten
    BurningCold - 65 Frost/PB Mage
    Vanguard - 23/30 Shotty Outlander
  • jdean300 wrote:
    Alright from these suggestion I've dropped 1 point from death ritual to get tangle shot, 5 from Shadowmantle(Figure it's easily replaced by gear) and 5 from Share The Wealth in order to push VH to ten. So I'm looking at this: [LINK DELETED]

    Only level 15 atm, but I'm so glad I got an early drop of Summon Skeleton. Things got a lot easier once I had 4 skeletons running around.

    You really really want max Share the wealth. It is an incredible passive. Personally I'm not a huge fan of shadow mantle. Using it for dps seems kind of pointless because it requires enemies hitting you to "Do good damage." which you want to avoid damage if possible. Using it for survival isn't great either as armor is one of the poorest forms of mitigation. Not to mention the damage only comes at a 50%. I would personally take the points out of shadow mantle and put it elsewhere but that's just me.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
  • xylonezxylonez Posts: 1,293
    jdean300 wrote:
    Alright from these suggestion I've dropped 1 point from death ritual to get tangle shot, 5 from Shadowmantle(Figure it's easily replaced by gear) and 5 from Share The Wealth in order to push VH to ten. So I'm looking at this: [LINK DELETED]

    Only level 15 atm, but I'm so glad I got an early drop of Summon Skeleton. Things got a lot easier once I had 4 skeletons running around.
    No blade pact? You should really get BP and max share the wealth, since these two are very useful. There's no need to max brute. Level 10 and level 15 brute doesn't have that much difference imho.
    "First player in the world that gets 133 skill points for some unknown reason"
  • ScylesScyles Posts: 63
    Blade Pact is amazing, but at some point you have to decide how many actives you are actually going to use; at what point do you stop buffing/debuffing and start shooting? Blade Pact/Stone Pact/Cursed Daggers: choose two out of those three.

    Haven't tested: if Stone Pact's %damage reflect applies to your summons then it is easily the best skill for a summoner to have. You could use +25% minion health instead of damage and rely on Stone Pact to keep your summons alive to deal reflect damage.
  • jdean300jdean300 Posts: 211
    You really really want max Share the wealth. It is an incredible passive. Personally I'm not a huge fan of shadow mantle. Using it for dps seems kind of pointless because it requires enemies hitting you to "Do good damage." which you want to avoid damage if possible. Using it for survival isn't great either as armor is one of the poorest forms of mitigation. Not to mention the damage only comes at a 50%. I would personally take the points out of shadow mantle and put it elsewhere but that's just me.

    I'd love to max Share The Wealth but theres nowhere I can think to take the points out of. Plus, the extra 20% will be about 2% dodge/crit/AS/CS which is very little IMO. Also, I'm not going to play multiplayer so the appeal of StW is even less.

    Now as far as Shadowmantle..... what? The dps is totally irrelevent. The only reason I'm getting it is the chance to reflect ranged attacks. Being in HCE, %reflect is something that I'm going to want to push very high but with shadowmantle thats 57% less that I have to get on gear. That means I can get gear with other stats to boost dps/survivability. Also, I have no idea what youre talking about with armor.... Yes it's horrible mitigation but I don't know how Shadowmantle gets me armor.... unless that's what Shadowblind does, but that's also irrelevent to me. All I want is %reflect.

    As far as the suggestions of BP. Yeah I definitely think I'm going to take 5 out of brute to get it. I'm at level 22 right now and I really need a slow in here.
    Scyles wrote:
    Haven't tested: if Stone Pact's %damage reflect applies to your summons then it is easily the best skill for a summoner to have. You could use +25% minion health instead of damage and rely on Stone Pact to keep your summons alive to deal reflect damage.

    I am pretty positive it does because it says "allies". That's an interesing way to take advantage of the reflect, definitely something I'm going to try and work with.
    HCE Characters
    BrutalEngine - 37/22 Cannoneer
    CreativeEngine - 76/100 Summon Engi NG++++ Beaten
    BurningCold - 65 Frost/PB Mage
    Vanguard - 23/30 Shotty Outlander
  • jdean300 wrote:
    You really really want max Share the wealth. It is an incredible passive. Personally I'm not a huge fan of shadow mantle. Using it for dps seems kind of pointless because it requires enemies hitting you to "Do good damage." which you want to avoid damage if possible. Using it for survival isn't great either as armor is one of the poorest forms of mitigation. Not to mention the damage only comes at a 50%. I would personally take the points out of shadow mantle and put it elsewhere but that's just me.

    I'd love to max Share The Wealth but theres nowhere I can think to take the points out of. Plus, the extra 20% will be about 2% dodge/crit/AS/CS which is very little IMO. Also, I'm not going to play multiplayer so the appeal of StW is even less.

    Now as far as Shadowmantle..... what? The dps is totally irrelevent. The only reason I'm getting it is the chance to reflect ranged attacks. Being in HCE, %reflect is something that I'm going to want to push very high but with shadowmantle thats 57% less that I have to get on gear. That means I can get gear with other stats to boost dps/survivability. Also, I have no idea what youre talking about with armor.... Yes it's horrible mitigation but I don't know how Shadowmantle gets me armor.... unless that's what Shadowblind does, but that's also irrelevent to me. All I want is %reflect.

    As far as the suggestions of BP. Yeah I definitely think I'm going to take 5 out of brute to get it. I'm at level 22 right now and I really need a slow in here.
    Scyles wrote:
    Haven't tested: if Stone Pact's %damage reflect applies to your summons then it is easily the best skill for a summoner to have. You could use +25% minion health instead of damage and rely on Stone Pact to keep your summons alive to deal reflect damage.

    I am pretty positive it does because it says "allies". That's an interesing way to take advantage of the reflect, definitely something I'm going to try and work with.

    The reflect damage doesn't prevent the damage reflected. You still take it. Just some of the damage is reflected back to the enemies. In other words they take damage for hitting you. That's from my understanding of it.
    Check out the Shooty Summoner here!
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