How Emberquake And Flame Hammer Work (Spreadsheet ITT)

beastmodeengagedbeastmodeengaged Posts: 235
edited February 2014 in Engineer Discussions
Update 12/13: minkhang has created an improved spreadsheet which is like mine, except easier to use, more complete, and more accurate. It is here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... JRVE#gid=0

I recommend anyone who's interested in theorycrafting this stuff to check out minkhang's spreadsheet. Thanks minkhang!

UPDATE 10/25: I've now created a Gdocs spreadsheet that calculates Emberquake damage, but 95% of the spreadsheet is actually calculating numbers that are useful to all classes. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... U5sb3U3dEE

UPDATE 11/8: The spreadsheet now includes fully tested Flame Hammer numbers and a heads up damage comparison between EQ and Flame Hammer.

HOW TO USE THE SPREADSHEET:

On "Character Stats", you should enter in all of your character stats from your gear. The results you get are very sensitive to your stats. The stats you enter won't be quite the same as the stats in the arcane panel. The spreadsheet separates bonuses gotten from attribute points vs bonuses gotten from gear. This is so it can change the attribute points around and help you make decisions about how to chant up your guy. Also, in the arcane panel, the All% damage bonuses are added to the elemental% damage bonuses, but in the stats input, all% is separated out. Basically you need to go through your gear and count up all of your gear bonuses piece by piece, and put them into the sheet. If your sheet looks wrong, check your stats. Don't forget to include spells, such as Dual Wield and/or Weapons Expertise. For the weapon, you should enter in the damage ranges separately. If you have +damage weapon socketables or the weapon naturally gives +flat damage, add it to both the min and max of the weapon's listed damage range. Ignore +damage from other items and from Sword and Board, as these do not get added to base weapon damage and are therefore useless.

If you want to see Emberquake and Flame Hammer damage numbers, go to the Engineer tab and it's there. If you want to make your own graphs, you can go to the SkillChartsData tab and change your total stat points and your total dexterity. Both graphs work by assuming that you have a total number of possible stat points and a fixed amount of dexterity. They then show you the relative value of Strength vs Focus given your gear and total stat points.

If you want to compare the spreadsheet to your in-game damage, remember two things. One is that the spreadsheet calculates damage pre-mitigation. Therefore the numbers you see on the test dummy will be slightly smaller. The other is that the combat log does not show the fire component of Emberquake damage. So you have to look at the floating combat text.

The spreadsheet can be used to make graphs like this:
oimg?key=0AnUvnEUkkwL5dFgxNmRiLWxrUXBlci1CMU5sb3U3dEE&oid=6&zx=qy6cprfm2ar6.jpg
and like this
oimg?key=0AnUvnEUkkwL5dFgxNmRiLWxrUXBlci1CMU5sb3U3dEE&oid=4&zx=hl0jhjphgku.jpg

The second graph graph is analyzed in the next post, which is about gear.

Please note that everything I'm about to say is confirmed in a series of tests that I performed using the console and a test dummy, or by armis or Kharkov. You should ignore anyone who contradicts these tests without posting evidence. All of my data is presented below as well as my methods and analysis, so you can reproduce these exact same experiments. The spreadsheet cites all the sources of formulas if you want them.

The mechanics of Emberquake are as follows. When cast, it produces 8 homing missiles, called "magma fissures" by the game. A magma fissure usually (always?) only hits an enemy once, but it is not consumed and can go on to hit more enemies. If you right click on a target at point blank range, all magma fissures will pass through the target, and at point blank range, all 8 are always observed to hit the target dummy with the combat log turned on. The fissures are emitted in bursts of 3 or 2 so that the scrolling text rolls up multiple hits into one damage number which shows a maximum of 3 fissure hits. Thus when you attack a target and hit them with 8 fissures, you will see three numbers display in the floating combat text (not counting burn ticks), and the combat log will always show the 8 fissures separately. edit 10/31: All magma fissures do the same thing. There are no splinters like Flame Hammer. There are just 8 Magma Fissures that all carry damage according to the rules I'm about to lay out.

The damage dealt by a single magma fissure is a complicated formula which nevertheless is important to understand in detail if you want to gear optimally for Emberquake damage. There are three parts to a Magma Fissure hit. The first part is the base fire damage that Emberquake does, the second is the weapon hit, and the third is the burn chance. These things are applied independently of each other and show up as discrete things in the combat log.

TLDR:
The base fire damage done by Emberquake is called DAMAGE::EMBERQUAKE in the log. It is modified by +%fire and +%magic how you would expect it to be. E.G., if you have +300% fire/focus damage, the fire component does 4x as much as what's listed in the tooltip. The base fire damage can crit and the damage done by a crit is modified as expected by critD%. I don't have quantitative data on whether crit chance works as expected, but it appears to be. The crit damage bonus is multiplicative with the other damage bonuses. (Test 5).

The weapon component is very much like hitting somebody with your weapon, except that it only does X% as much as a real hit ( 35% at level one, which I used for all my tests, and 63% at level 15). It actually looks like a weapon hit in the log, and it procs weapon on-hit chance to cast spells. It does not steal mana. All components of the weapon's damage are modified by strength weapon bonus, crit%, and crit% damage. The crit damage bonus is multiplicative with the other damage bonuses (Tests 1-5). The elemental portions of the weapon are modified by their +%element as well as +%focus.+fire%/focus% is strictly additive with the strength bonus to weapon DPS. This is confirmed in Test 3 and reconfirmed in tests 7-10.

The burn component is something I don't really understand but I believe its damage contribution is minor so I haven't really tried. The log is pretty unhelpful with burn.

Thanks to seth59 for posting the damage differences he noticed between a physical axe and an elemental axe (viewtopic.php?f=45&t=41197&start=120#p387551). It was his data that inspired me to crack open the console and do this analysis.

Thanks to MrDNA for confirming that each fissure procs spell cast effects. (viewtopic.php?f=45&t=44579#p403374)

Special thanks to armis for supplying many of the more arcane mechanics formulas as well as finding a bug in my original analysis of this post.

An few arcane facts about Emberquake:

%Secondary targets does not affect EQ in any way.
EQ fissures can give you the Supercharge buff (each has the full chance to do so), but only if the enemy they're hitting is within approximately melee range when they do so.
EQ fissures do not damage the target with the electrical discharge from the Supercharge buff.
EQ fissures can activate Coupe de Grace.
EQ fissures can activate the Heavy Lifting stun.
EQ fissures can proc any %chance to cast spell gems.

[TEST DATA]

The follow tests were performed using the console with a level 83 engineer. Unless otherwise specified, he was holding The Judge's Hand, an axe that does 22 Physical and 22 Fire damage and adds +7% crit and +20% crit damage.

The console can be used to bring strength to 0 using STRENGTH -15, but I could not find a published command for bringing focus to 0.

Console commands used in these tests:

STRENGTH **** - Add this much strength to your character. Can take negative values to substract strength.
levelup - add one level to the character
RESETSTATS - stats go back to their base values
ALLSTATS **** - Add **** To all stats. Negative values don't seem to work.
RESETSKILLS - return all skill points to 0
SKILLPOINTS X - give yourself X skillpoints to spend
COMBATLOG - turn the combat log on in your console
cls - clear the console. Used between each EQ trial to prevent contamination.
ITEM ID - Spawn an item with ID x.
IDS used in these tests:
The Judge's Hand: axe_u01
Lessons of Darkness: legendary_staff02

[FIRST TEST - STRENGTH 0, FOCUS 5]
The first test was therefore performed at 0 Str and 5 Foc (given +2.5% damage to abilities), with one point in Emberquake. At this level EQ does 612 fire damage + 35% weapon damage according to the tooltip.

I used an axe because axes have no damage range. We would therefore expect to see all hits do the same amount of damage, And this is what the combat log confirmed.

HIT
P (9-9) -> 9
F (10-10) -> 10

Comment: So far, we're seeing pretty much exactly what we expect. The weapon's DPS is 55. The reported damage per fissure hit is 19. 19/55 = .345 =~ the tooltip's claim of 35%. It's not clear why fire is hitting harder than physical, but it's clear that one doing 9 and one doing 10 is the way to get closest to the tooltip's claimed 35% damage using only integer damage values. (20/55 = .364, 18/55= .327).

CRIT
P (9-9) -> 15
F (10-10) -> 17

Comment: Crits are dealing 170% damage, which is jives with my crit bonus of 70%. (+50% base crit bonus, and +20% from the axe.)

DAMAGE::EMBERQUAKE: 611.25 on all hits and crits

Comment: very close to the reported tooltip number for the fire component.

I performed many tests trying to get "clean" quakes with only a single magma fissure touching the dummy. On those hits, I observed a range of 562-572 damage in the floating combat text. I discounted all hits that caused a burn for these observations. The dummy soaks some damage, but it's clear that tooltip is showing one number that reflects both the weapon hit and DAMAGE::EMBERQUAKE portions of the effect. Later we will see that looking at the floating number is important, because the actual modified damage done by DAMAGE::EMBERQUAKE doesn't show up in the log - only the base value.

[SECOND TEST - STRENGTH 500, FOCUS 5]

At this level of strength, I have +270% crit bonus damage and +250% weapon damage.

HIT
P (33-33) -> 33
F (32-32) -> 32

Comment: This doesn't *exactly* jive with expectations. 33(now)/9(before) = 3.7. The reported bonus is in the tooltip is 2.5, so we would have expected 2.5+1 = 3.5 here. I can't reconcile this through rounding errors.

CRIT
P (33-33) -> 122
F (32-32) -> 118

Comment: 122/33 = 3.70, as expected.

DAMAGE::EMBERQUAKE is reported as 611.25 on all crits and hits.

I'm seeing emberquakes in the 600ish range now according to the floating combat text, making it clear that the fire component (which dominates with this weak axe) is not being modified in any way by strength - as expected.


[THIRD TEST - FIRE AND SPARK rank 10, +50%]

HIT
P (33-33) -> 33
F (37-37) -> 37

Comment: This actually makes sense. The base fire component was 10 damage. We just added 50% to that, so we added 5 more damage to it. This implies that fire% is strictly additive with strength%. If it were multiplicative, then we'd have seen a higher number for the fire component here.

CRIT
P (33-33) -> 122
F (37-37) -> 136


[FOURTH TEST - 500 STRENGTH, 500 FOCUS, FIRE AND SPARK RANK 10 (50%)]

Now let's boost Focus. At this level of focus I have +250% damage to skill and elemental damage, and +50% Fire from Fire and Spark, giving me a nice round +300% fire damage.
HIT
P (33-33)
F (53-53)
CRIT
P (33-33) -> 122
F (53-53) -> 196

I'm visually observing clean Dummy hits of ~2096 post absorption. This is greater than the +300% expected value when compared to the +0%, and it makes sense because soak is a fixed number and not a percentage. So the dummy is soaking a smaller percentage of the hit, and we're seeing that the fire component is modified as expected by F&S as well as Focus.

[FOURTH TEST RE-RUN]
Comment: I was asked to rerun this test because the numbers don't add up according to our hypothesis. Fire damage is significantly underreported from the baseline hypothesis of additive str,focus,fire% bonuses. We expected this:
Axe does 22 fire damage / .8 seconds, or 27.5 fire dps.

* (1 + 2.5 + 3) * .35 = 62.56 damage.

But we're seeing 53. Shennanigans. Let's re run:

HIT
P (33-33)
F (58-58)

CRIT

P (33-33) -> 122
P (58-58) -> 214

Ok, now this is weird. How could it be so different between runs? I don't think I typoed in the first trial, because I would have had to have typoed twice, for the hit and the crit, and I sure didn't typo the crit actual damage, which is different in the two runs. I re-ran tests 2 and 3 and got the same results. We are tempted to chalk these numbers up to a rounding error or a bug in The Judge's Hand which makes F&S stop working in this trial. Look at trial 10 to see hard proof that F&S affects the fire component of the weapon component of damage in all or most situations.

[FIFTH TEST - 0 STRENGTH, 500 FOCUS (250%), 510 DEX, 0 F&S]

Now I'm logging back on to resolve a few unresolved questions.

Q1. Does crit modify the base component of emberquake in the expected way? No way to tell exactly from the clog, because modified damage of emberquake base component is not reported, but we can satisfy ourselves that it's close to expected by looking at floating text over the dummy. On many occasions during this version of my guy, I observed ~2078 hits and about ~4282 criticals. The log reports that the dummy absorbs ~760 per hit. This gives a pre-absorb real hit of ~2838, and a pre-absorb real crit of ~5042. 5042/2838 =~ 1.7, the crit damage bonus, as expected.

Q2. How does the fire component of the weapon component get modified by +%fire and +%focus?

HIT
(9-9) -> 9
(32-32) -> 32

Comment: In the original test at 0 strength, 5 focus, we had 10 from the fire component. We have 32 now. That's actually a bit higher than the expected modification. We expect to see 10 * 2.5, but we get 10 * 3.2 instead. I'm going to chalk the discrepancy up to rounding errors.

CRIT
P (9-9) -> 15
F (32-32) -> 54


[SIXTH TEST - 0 STR, 500 FOCUS, 510 DEX, 10 F&S (50%) ]

Now the total bonus is 300% instead of 250% as above.

HIT
(9-9) -> 9
(35-32) -> 35

Comment: ok, well, it's going up, but it's pretty hard to understand why we're arriving at this specific number, except perhaps for some hideous rounding errors. Let's use bigger numbers to rule out rounding errors.

[SEVENTH TEST - 0 STR, 5 FOCUS, 0 F&S, Lessons of Darkness]

I spawned a Lessons of Darkness for this test. At this point, we've already learned how crit applies and we've also learned that the parenthetical damages reported in the log already take into account the modifications due to +focus and +fire, so we don't need to look at the "actual" number on the right hand side of the arrow any more.

Here's the staff.

545.24 damage per second
Fast Attack Speed (0.84)
Ice Damage: 104-171
Fire Damage: 242-400
2 Sockets
+10% to Physical Armor
5% chance to cast Call Forth the Skull on kill
+15% to Fire Damage

This staff looks good to test weapon bonus modifications because it has big fire numbers. I can use F&S with the +15% from the staff to create a big difference between fire and non-fire elemental damage, simultaneously corroborating the theory that all elements are modified the same way.

Remember, I have 15% fire from the staff. That's ok, we just have to account for it.

HIT
F (118-196) avg 157
I (45-73) avg 59

Comment: is this expected? WeaponDPS * .35 = 190, we're seeing 216. We would expect to see 133.1 avg fire and 57.56 average ice, total 190. However we're getting 15% fire from the staff, let's take it out. 157/1.15 = 136.5. Add that to the ice component and we're getting 195.5. However, we have to take out the 2.5% magic damage bonus from 5 focus. 195.5/1.025 = 190.75, nearly exact to the tooltip.

[EIGTH TEST - 0 STR, 500 FOCUS, 510 DEX, 12 F&S, holding Lessons of Darkness]

Now we crank it up and see what the difference is. I have 250+75 = 325% fire and 250% ice.
HIT
F (425-704) (avg 564.5)
I (150-247) (avg 198.5)

Again if we just look at average damage and take out the bonus damage modifiers we should get back to the tooltip's promised 35% of weapon DPS, which is still 190.

564.5/4.25 = 132.8
198.5/3.5 = 56.7

total 190, which is what we expected. Thanks to armis for finding a bug in my original analysis of this and the next test, which had the incorrect factors of 3.25 and 2.5. (viewtopic.php?f=45&t=44579&p=403030#p403852)

[NINTH TEST - 500 STR, 500 FOCUS, 510 DEX, 12 F&S, holding Lessons of Darkness]

I have 250+75 = 325% fire and 250% ice, +250% from the weapon.

If str is additive with focus and +elemental , the ice factor should be (1 + 2.5 + 2.5 ) = 6. 6 * the base damage of 57.56 = 345. The Fire factor should be 6.75 * the base of 133.1 = 898.

HIT
F (675-1118) (avg 896.5)
I (258-422) (avg 340)

Perfect correspondence with the additive theory.

[TENTH TEST - PROVING THAT F&S AFFECTS THE WEAPON]

[500STR, 5Focus, 0 F&S, Death Sentence]

fire: 353

[500STR, 5Focus, 10 F&S, Death Sentence]

fire: 403

[500STR, 5Focus, 0 F&S, 2 Pandectos, Death Sentence]

fire: 453

[500STR, 5Focus, 10 F&S, 2 Pandectos, Death Sentence]

fire: 503

[500STR, 500Focus, 0 F&S, Death Sentence]

fire: 600

[500STR, 500Focus, 10 F&S, Death Sentence]

fire: 650

Update 11/11: Thanks to minhkhangluong for finding some bugs in the spreadsheet. These don't change any major conclusions, but might have messed up gear evaluations for some folks.

1. On the "Engineer" tab, "all damage %" was counted twice for the EQ fire component.

2. On the Emberquake chart, all damage% was not counted for the EQ fire component.

3. On the EQ chart, bonus crit% from gear was not counted for either EQ or Flame Hammer.
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Comments

  • beastmodeengagedbeastmodeengaged Posts: 235
    edited November 2012
    How should I gear for Emberquake damage?

    Both base fire and weapon components of Emberquake are modified, multiplicatively, by Crit% and CritD%. There is a point at which stacking Crit%+CritD% is the best thing you can do to Emberquake.

    Here are two sample engineers for you to consider. In the first case I plugged in one of my engineers, a level 59 HCE character that is wearing a lot of defensive gear.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... npaWTRaUlE

    At this lower level of gear, the best thing I can do for Emberquake damage is actually to add dexterity for crit chance(!). However, in the eternal Strength vs Focus debate, there is a clear winner, and it's what we suspected all along. Here is a stat allocation graph. In this graph, the Y axis is average Emberquake damage (factoring in crits), and X is the amount of strength that the user has. In all of these graphs, total stat allocation is fixed to some amount A, and A = Dex + Strength + Focus. Since dex is fixed in these graphs, as strength goes up, that means focus is going down by the same amount.

    oimg?key=0AnUvnEUkkwL5dEJXdVNaUkN0VWFyalJucnpaWTRaUlE&oid=4&zx=rfok0vdmjf9z.jpg

    This spreadsheet shows that the dominating factor in my emberquake damage is how much damage the fire portion of the spell does, and that crits don't really matter yet. I've used this spreadsheet to help me make gear decisions. For instance, should I wear Straight Shot Mantle (+20% fire damage) or Witchfinder Mantle (+54 dexterity)? The spreadsheet tells me that my average emberquake is worth 14k in the first case and 15.4k in the second, therefore the clear winner is Witchfinder.

    But here is that same engineer a few levels later. I'm wearing a Witchfinder Mantle now (+54 dex), and I changed my weapon to The Final Component (+4% crit) and inserted a Huge Chaos Ember (+6% crit). Emberquake has gone from 8/15 to 11/15, boosting both portions of the damage. The amazing thing about this gear configuration is that it's telling me that half and half focus and strength is slightly more optimal than focusing on either stat exclusively, but that it really doesn't matter - see that the total damage line is nearly flat across the entire distribution range.

    oimg?key=0AnUvnEUkkwL5dGtkZUN6VlBQV2NrUVU3cVRuMXdXY2c&oid=4&zx=dlezhfkvz6pk.jpg

    See that the graph is nearly flat, meaning that it actually barely matters whether I put points in Strength or Focus. (But, I'm choosing Strength, because weapons have higher Strength requirements, and the deep endgame will want more strength than focus).

    I'm showing these two graphs to illustrate that real life gear situations can actually impact correct gearing. In order to know how all of this applies to you, you have to actually put in your own gear.

    Consider, for instance, this really high end engineer, who is lucky enough to be holding a Wizard of Gore and two big +200 damage skulls, has different priorities. To generate this graph, the spreadsheet has numbers plugged in for an engineer wearing 9/10 Mondons, skipping the Mondon Ring for 2x Pandectos. He has Weapons Expertise rank VI, which gives 24% melee weapon damage. He has massive stats from Borris. He is holding a Wizard of Gore socketed with 2x200 damage skulls, Old Master Q in the offhand. He's got a total of 22% attack speed, 100% fire damage, and 8% bonus crit, 28% bonus melee damage, and and 20% all damage. He's taken 300 dexterity.

    oimg?key=0AnUvnEUkkwL5dFgxNmRiLWxrUXBlci1CMU5sb3U3dEE&oid=4&zx=hl0jhjphgku.jpg

    You can see that as strength goes up, the contribution from crits go up. At 999 strength, the CritD% cap is hit, and at that point focus becomes better. Strength boosts even fire crits more than boosting focus does until about 600 strength, and at this high level of dexterity, boost crits matters enough to give strength the edge. Because Dex doesn't vary in the graph, the chance to crit doesn't change at all, so you can clearly see the focus portion falling off linearly and the weapon hit increasingly linearly as you add to strength and take it away from focus. The reason why Strength is better than Focus until the CritD% cap is entirely due to the awesomeness of crits. Even if you have only have 54 dex, it would still have been better to cap out CritD% while holding a Wizard of Gore (!). That said, different weapons and gear have different breakeven points, and some configurations breakeven before the CritD% cap. Therefore, I cannot answer your question. However, the spreadsheet can answer you question perfectly.

    Real life gear decisions are made between actual items in your possession. Use the spreadsheet by inputting your gear values on page 1 and page 2. It will tell you your total average damage from each gear setup. If you want to plan a stat allocation, you can also use Sheet2 and Chart2 to learn when your personal guy will break even.

    SPREADSHEET HERE https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... U5sb3U3dEE. Enjoy!
  • papahavpapahav Posts: 53
    Are all the base fire (not hit) damage working with focus/F&S?
  • Too many variables. Keep Emberquake at 15/15 and use white axes for testing.
    Steam: Dr. Faustroll / Runic: scionofhorus
  • MrDNAMrDNA Posts: 1
    Just thought I'd chime in about the "on weapon hit" affixes. While I haven't tried using every variety of weapon hit proc, "X% to cast Y from target" works beautifully with Emberquake. My level 81 Engi is still using [LINK DELETED]. With about 400 Focus, 300% +Fire and 100%+ Electric, the Fire Storm hits for about 7k (and has a glorious chance to fear), and the Thunder hits for about 10k (with a guaranteed Shock). With every hit of every fissure giving a chance to proc both of these spells, I rarely cast Emberquake without getting at least 1 proc of something, even on single targets. Since the weapon DPS component of Emberquake is so lackluster anyway, I've gone almost 40 levels with no weapon upgrade in sight.
  • Too many variables. Keep Emberquake at 15/15 and use white axes for testing.

    There are exactly 0 things about Emberquake that I can learn from using a white axe. The only thing left to know is how strength stacks with focus on the elemental components of the weapon component of Emberquake's damage. But thanks for playing.
  • beastmodeengagedbeastmodeengaged Posts: 235
    edited October 2012
    papahav wrote:
    Are all the base fire (not hit) damage working with focus/F&S?

    Yes. From the summary, "The base fire damage done by Emberquake is called DAMAGE::EMBERQUAKE in the log. It is modified by +%fire and +%magic how you would expect it to be. E.G., if you have +300% fire/focus damage, the fire component does 4x as much as what's listed in the tooltip.". And tests 2, 4, and 5 back that statement up.
  • But thanks for playing.
    :roll:

    You're going far.
    Steam: Dr. Faustroll / Runic: scionofhorus
  • But thanks for playing.
    :roll:

    You're going far.

    Sorry, it's pretty **** annoying to spend all day long getting amazing data and then log in to see someone armchair quarterbacking and making dumb suggestions. I'm not going to be nice to you. Deal with it.
  • But thanks for playing.
    :roll:

    You're going far.

    Sorry, it's pretty **** annoying to spend all day long getting amazing data and then log in to see someone armchair quarterbacking and making dumb suggestions. I'm not going to be nice to you. Deal with it.
    I guess I would be upset if someone pointed out my "amazing" data used flawed methodology and useless variables, too.
    Steam: Dr. Faustroll / Runic: scionofhorus
  • MrDNA wrote:
    Just thought I'd chime in about the "on weapon hit" affixes. While I haven't tried using every variety of weapon hit proc, "X% to cast Y from target" works beautifully with Emberquake. My level 81 Engi is still using [LINK DELETED]. With about 400 Focus, 300% +Fire and 100%+ Electric, the Fire Storm hits for about 7k (and has a glorious chance to fear), and the Thunder hits for about 10k (with a guaranteed Shock). With every hit of every fissure giving a chance to proc both of these spells, I rarely cast Emberquake without getting at least 1 proc of something, even on single targets. Since the weapon DPS component of Emberquake is so lackluster anyway, I've gone almost 40 levels with no weapon upgrade in sight.

    Thanks man, I updated the original post and put in a credit to you.
  • Logged in just to say: Thanks for all your time and effort on this detailed testing! This is the clearest description of how EQ works I've seen anywhere. I've read other threads with little bits of information spread all over, which ends up not making much sense and having lots of conflicting statements. This is great. Ignore the haters.
  • Thanks for the research.

    I read somewhere that the "+x% to secondary target damage" applies directly to the damage due to EQ fissures.

    My question is whether this applies to the weapon hit component, or the fire component, or both (!), or, it doesn't apply at all. Can we verify?
  • zbmottzbmott Posts: 12
    Wow! This is one **** of a post. You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. You do the engineer corps proud.
    MrDNA wrote:
    Just thought I'd chime in about the "on weapon hit" affixes. While I haven't tried using every variety of weapon hit proc, "X% to cast Y from target" works beautifully with Emberquake.
    I've observed that myself. My build lately has been a "bizarre effects" build, in which I use Ember Quake with weapons that have goofy procs, and then socket them as much as possible to get more goofy procs. Right now I'm using:
    [LINK DELETED] -- 10% chance to cast Thunder from target (when I feel like using a shield)
    or
    [LINK DELETED] -- 10% chance to cast Raise Shadowling on kill
    with
    [LINK DELETED] -- 5% chance to cast Thunder on hit
    [LINK DELETED] -- 3% chance to cast Acid Rain on hit)

    Depending on how much time I have this week to explore this stuff, I might write up my build more formally, or explore how someone might work Ember Quake + X% chance to raise Shadowling on kill into a summon build.
  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    But thanks for playing.
    :roll:

    You're going far.

    Sorry, it's pretty **** annoying to spend all day long getting amazing data and then log in to see someone armchair quarterbacking and making dumb suggestions. I'm not going to be nice to you. Deal with it.
    I sympathize but he's right. You have some pretty glaring discrepancies and the scientific way to chase them down is to go back to basics, remove as many variables as you can, and troubleshoot from there (and not blow up in his face). I'm not dissing your work, it's great research and I for one am glad to see other people do it because there's like 3 of us doing stuff like this in the Embermage section and nobody seems to give a **** (judging from all the flat-out wrong "advice" I still see floating about even though it's been thoroughly debunked weeks ago).

    Here, however, gear isn't the problem. Now, the way I do things is to take the min/max values on the weapon and apply all effects separately, and compare the end values to the skill damage ranges listed in the combat log.

    Now let me run your 3 last tests again:

    [SEVENTH TEST - 0 STR, 5 FOCUS, 0 F&S, Lessons of Darkness]
    Staff: F:242-400, I:104-171, 0.84 speed
    Min Fire: 242*(1+2.5%+15%)/0.84*0.35=118.5 - combatlog number: 118
    Max Fire: 400*((1+2.5%+15%)/0.84*0.35=195.8 - combatlog number: 196
    Min Ice: 104*(1+2.5%)/0.84*0.35=44.4 - combatlog number: 45
    Max Ice: 171*((1+2.5%)/0.84*0.35=73 - combatlog number: 73

    All within rounding error (on a side note, either the damage integers listed in weapon tooltips are actually already rounded, either the game has a really weird rounding method).

    [EIGTH TEST - 0 STR, 500 FOCUS, 510 DEX, 12 F&S, holding Lessons of Darkness]
    Staff: F:242-400, I:104-171, 0.84 speed
    Min Fire: 242*(1+250%+15%+60%)/0.84*0.35=428.5 - combatlog number: 425
    Max Fire: 400*((1+250%+15%+60%)/0.84*0.35=708.3 - combatlog number: 704
    Min Ice: 104*(1+250%)/0.84*0.35=151.7 - combatlog number: 150
    Max Ice: 171*((1+250%)/0.84*0.35=249.4 - combatlog number: 247

    Close enough.

    [NINTH TEST - 500 STR, 500 FOCUS, 510 DEX, 12 F&S, holding Lessons of Darkness]
    Staff: F:242-400, I:104-171, 0.84 speed
    Min Fire: 242*(1+250%+250%+15%+60%)/0.84*0.35=680.6 - combatlog number: 675
    Max Fire: 400*((1+250%+250%+15%+60%)/0.84*0.35=1125.0 - combatlog number: 1118
    Min Ice: 104*(1+250%+250%)/0.84*0.35=260.0 - combatlog number: 258
    Max Ice: 171*((1+250%+250%)/0.84*0.35=427.5 - combatlog number: 422

    I had already reported in my own tests (on Magma Spear, to be specific) that Str and Foc bonus damage was additive, and it seems to hold up well.


    So yeah, basically, the way straight-up damage is calculated in the game is fairly straightforward. In general, all percentage damage bonuses are additive when applicable (Str, Foc, elemental, Embermage charge, etc.). The only multiplications taking place would be when calculating total DPS output, where you factor in critical hits and cast/attack speed, which multiplicatively affect skill damage. Increases to tooltip damage (such as from Prismatic Bolt's tier bonuses) are also multiplicative.

    edit: check your 4th test, did you by any chance either misreport the Focus (500 reported, 300 actual) or the skill's fire damage (53 reported, 63 actual)? Cause I'm getting 63 theoretical fire damage instead of 53, and it's the only place I'm getting any sort of discrepancy.

    edit2: actually you were on the mark everywhere, you're just **** up your percentages: 250% bonus damage means you're multiplying by 3.5, for instance. Tak your 8th test:
    [EIGTH TEST - 0 STR, 500 FOCUS, 510 DEX, 12 F&S, holding Lessons of Darkness]

    Now we crank it up and see what the difference is. I have 250+75 = 325% fire and 250% ice.
    HIT
    F (425-704) (avg 564.5)
    I (150-247) (avg 198.5)

    Again if we just look at average damage and take out the bonus damage modifiers we should get back to the tooltip's promised 35% of weapon DPS, which is still 190.

    564.5/3.25 = 173.69
    198.5/2.5 = 79.5

    total 253.19, whereas we expected 190. This is more mystery. I can't explain this and I'm giving up trying.
    325% bonus damage means you should divide by 4.25; 250% bonus damage means you should divide by 3.5. Do that and you're back within expected values.
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  • armis wrote:
    I sympathize but he's right. You have some pretty glaring discrepancies and the scientific way to chase them down is to go back to basics, remove as many variables as you can, and troubleshoot from there (and not blow up in his face).

    You say he's right but then...
    Here, however, gear isn't the problem.
    You actually agree that he's completely off the mark.

    I was pretty sure that there was a bug in the analysis. Thanks so much for helping me find it! This explains the discrepancies with the staff perfectly and leads back to the additive str+focus bonus conclusion. I'll go and update the OP and credit with you it (and I'm elated! Thanks for the help :)). I have no problem taking criticism from my fellow scientists, after all, that is what science is all about.
  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    You say he's right but then...

    You actually agree that he's completely off the mark.
    It was more of a general opinion on the scientific process, I guess. I'm still curious about that 4th test of yours, if there was merely a typo somewhere of if there's something actually fishy going on.
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  • beastmodeengagedbeastmodeengaged Posts: 235
    edited October 2012
    I'll re-run it.

    Edit: I re-ran test 4. [500 str, 500 foc, 10 F&S].

    HIT
    (33-33)
    (58-58)

    I'm not sure if I typo-ed before.

    Edit 2:

    Axe does 22 fire damage / .8 seconds, or 27.5 fire dps.

    * (1 + 2.5 + 3) * .35 = 62.56 damage.

    It is definitely reporting way lower than that.

    EDIT 3:
    The numbers work if you remove fire and spark!
    27.5 * (1 + 2.5 + 2.5) * .35 = 57.75.

    But trust me, I definitely F&S right now!

    I am going to log out and and in and re-run again.
  • CaspidCaspid Posts: 360
    "magic -5" doesn't work for removing points from focus?
  • Dekar0Dekar0 Posts: 93
    So, I've kept up with many EmberQuake related postings but I don't see how this tells me anything different. As others have said, not that I don't appreciate your work and effort, but all I gather is.. pump focus which I already knew ;) as seen in test 2-4
  • Caspid wrote:
    "magic -5" doesn't work for removing points from focus?

    Nope, that affects your mana pool, not the focus stat, unfortunately.
  • Dekar0 wrote:
    So, I've kept up with many EmberQuake related postings but I don't see how this tells me anything different. As others have said, not that I don't appreciate your work and effort, but all I gather is.. pump focus which I already knew ;) as seen in test 2-4

    Well, this analysis gives exact formulas, which can be used to build spreadsheets that tell us when to switch to crit/critD. And it refutes the strengthers.
  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    I'll re-run it.

    Edit: I re-ran test 4. [500 str, 500 foc, 10 F&S].

    HIT
    (33-33)
    (58-58)

    I'm not sure if I typo-ed before.

    Edit 2:

    Axe does 22 fire damage / .8 seconds, or 27.5 fire dps.

    * (1 + 2.5 + 3) * .35 = 62.56 damage.

    It is definitely reporting way lower than that.
    Weird. Hey, I'm not at home right now so I can't do this myself but maybe you want to give it a shot with the Death Sentence (axe_u06c); it's like the Judge's Hand in that it deals 231 physical and 231 fire damage with 0.8 speed. Maybe the bigger numbers will tell us something about the discrepancy.
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  • armis wrote:
    I'll re-run it.

    Edit: I re-ran test 4. [500 str, 500 foc, 10 F&S].

    HIT
    (33-33)
    (58-58)

    I'm not sure if I typo-ed before.

    Edit 2:

    Axe does 22 fire damage / .8 seconds, or 27.5 fire dps.

    * (1 + 2.5 + 3) * .35 = 62.56 damage.

    It is definitely reporting way lower than that.
    Weird. Hey, I'm not at home right now so I can't do this myself but maybe you want to give it a shot with the Death Sentence (axe_u06c); it's like the Judge's Hand in that it deals 231 physical and 231 fire damage with 0.8 speed. Maybe the bigger numbers will tell us something about the discrepancy.

    Look at my edit. The numbers work if you remove F&S from the bonus calculation....
  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    Look at my edit. The numbers work if you remove F&S from the bonus calculation....
    Looks like it, but F&S did contribute to tests 8 and 9, so why wouldn't it for this one? I'd be a bummer if the passive was bugged on weapons with a physical damage component...
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  • armis wrote:
    Look at my edit. The numbers work if you remove F&S from the bonus calculation....
    Looks like it, but F&S did contribute to tests 8 and 9, so why wouldn't it for this one? I'd be a bummer if the passive was bugged on weapons with a physical damage component...

    Test 3 shows that F&S affects the axe sometimes.
  • armisarmis Posts: 489
    What do you call the hardcap?
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  • armis wrote:
    What do you call the hardcap?

    I was thinking 500% bonus could be a hard cap. However I just ruled that out by putting on two Pandectos and running again:

    (33-33)
    (67-67)

    27.5 * (1 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 1) = 67.375

    So it's really looking like F&S is not affecting the axe in this trial.
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