Do you resist the dark side?

peti29peti29 Posts: 117
edited November 2012 in TL2 Hardcore Mode
Johnny 13 is wandering about on the empty fields of the Temple Stepps. Everything so quiet. Forces of evil weeded, even the Bone Gallery was cleared yesterday with the accidental aid of a fistful of higher lvl characters. It was too easy. Johnny missed the struggle. Anyway, there was nothing left but a Phase Challenge and Grell. Let's do the PC! Fingers crossed, Johnny 13 enters the portal. A sigh of relief: it's not "raise the columns". Three runes to activate, three chests to earn. The first was easy, but those fire shooting rushing skeletons hit so hard. Got to be careful. If only I wasn't so sleepy... Let's do the second! Ugh, I nearly died. Potion, potion, potion. Luckily I have enough. Why does it not end. Heaps of broken bones all around and they still keep crawling up from beneath the ground. Teleport, potion, heal pet, teleport. Die, die, die!... Finally, I thought it would never end. I'll give up the third chest, just get the **** out of here. Ok, Grell was easy as always. Found some nice gear, Frosted Hills, here I come! Checked for multiplayer but no appropriate games found. Ah well, let's do it singleplayer. Johnny is slaughtering spiders and wolves with delight. Fire and Ice, it seems a nice combination (Magma Spear and Icy Blast). Let's enter the cave with that robotic drum. Come you ugly spiders and burn! What?!!! What happened. ****, Johnny is dead! I didn't even see those small small spiderlings. Are they not critters? Fck this, I'll just revive. Fire up RapidRespec real quick...

And then I died a couple of more times because resurrection places you right back where you died with only a few drips of HP. But I managed to solve it in the end. (Alternatively I could have just joined any MP game to start from a town.)

And now I have a dilemma. Should I continue with Johnny 13? Pretend nothing happened? (It was in SP after all, no one saw.) And what if I die again?
Or should I start from scratch yet again? I have a life: family, work. And I already have massive sleep deprivation from this game. It was so a stupid death anyway...
Or maybe I should just stop playing EHC and revert to say VSC? But EHC is the only mode I ever experienced teamplay in MP. And I love it so much.

What would you do? Were you never tempted by the dark side?
(I play without using the shared stash, so starting from scratch is really starting from scratch.)

Comments

  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,360 ✭✭✭
    While it might seem ignoble to die from what you consider to be a 'dumb' death, in reality your character died doing something incredibly noble-saving innocent lives. A lapse in situational awareness doesn't take away from what they achieved in the short time they lived.

    I would say start a new character. It won't really be the same playing the old one, and you know it. Why else would you take the time to write so eloquent an epitaph and memorialize your character the way you have?

    Carry on and let the spirit of Johnny 13 guide your new character and have a flagon of mead (or suitable substitute of your preference) in Johnny 13's honor.
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  • NauzhrorNauzhror Posts: 1,090
    peti29 wrote:
    Or maybe I should just stop playing EHC and revert to say VSC? But EHC is the only mode I ever experienced teamplay in MP. And I love it so much.

    It doesn't sound like you do love it so much....

    If you loved **** you'd have stayed dead. It's quite clear that what you actually enjoy is softcore.
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    "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams
  • peti29peti29 Posts: 117
    I meant I love teamplay and the tension. I didn't say I love grinding through the first part of Act 1 again and again just because I was too sleepy to be aware and I was poisoned to death by fist sized critters I didn't even see. Where's the tension in that?

    Yes, some parts I enjoy of HC and some I don't. I'm torn because I regret to spend so much time just to have another try. Yet I know it would be no different from SC if I continued.

    But don't tell me none of you was ever tempted. Or how about alt-F4-ing out of a bad situation? How is that different? Or using the sahared stash? Where is the line?
  • peti29 wrote:
    Where is the line?

    For me, at game bugs. I got hit with the regent bug once, I revived afterwards, but ultimately deleted that embermage. Something about seeing a big fat 1 in the deaths stat is a huge, HUGE turnoff.

    You sound like you might enjoy some custom, self-enforced rules to make your own mediumcore. I do mediumcore when I play elder scrolls games, hard saves only allowed in an inn/owned home. Quicksaves are permitted from time to time in case of crash (which can happen often with my usual mod lists). If I die during my adventures, I can lose a few minutes, or a few hours depending on my last pitstop. But I love to RP in those games, so a single playthrough can take upwards of 1,000+ hours, and it's really not something I'd like to lose.

    As for Torchlight 2, were I so inclined, I'd make a softcore character for game availability (**** works if you want to play with others who are also playing with survival in mind, but might agitate some) and back my character up at the beginning of each act. Reverting to this backup if I died at any point during the act. Along with that, no shared stash as it is persistent storage. This way there is some risk, you don't want to die after 6 hours of killing and looting, but not so much that you burn out by replaying act 1.

    Possible alternatives (self-enforced or mod enabled):
    • Vendoring/shared stashing/dropping all your equipped gear at death (replacing act 1 grinding with loot grinding)
    • 100% gold penalty on respawn in town
    • EXP penalty on respawn (with de-leveling, if possible)
    • A permissible number of deaths per act (say 2-3)
  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,360 ✭✭✭
    Nauzhror wrote:
    peti29 wrote:
    Or maybe I should just stop playing EHC and revert to say VSC? But EHC is the only mode I ever experienced teamplay in MP. And I love it so much.

    It doesn't sound like you do love it so much....

    If you loved **** you'd have stayed dead. It's quite clear that what you actually enjoy is softcore.
    Yeah, because everything in life is black and white, right? :roll:
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  • Zidders wrote:
    Nauzhror wrote:
    peti29 wrote:
    Or maybe I should just stop playing EHC and revert to say VSC? But EHC is the only mode I ever experienced teamplay in MP. And I love it so much.

    It doesn't sound like you do love it so much....

    If you loved **** you'd have stayed dead. It's quite clear that what you actually enjoy is softcore.
    Yeah, because everything in life is black and white, right? :roll:

    He didn't say everything is black and white. I think this is one of those rare things that actually is black and white. If you character dies, then it's dead. It's a simple and elegant rule that makes for a more compelling game experience to a very tiny fraction of people who play these types of games. There is no reason to overthink the rule. If you have to spend several minutes inventing rationalizations for your action, then you should just accept the obvious truth, which is that you're rationalizing something which in your heart you know is wrong.

    The OP didn't even post a real sob story. He was legitimately killed by guys while he had control of his character. He claims he didn't see them, but, well, uh, the point of HC is to stay on your toes. "I wasn't playing sharp" isn't an excuse. "I wasn't playing sharp" is the explanation for nearly all deaths. This is a completely black and white case.

    I do feel sorry for people who die to the Reagent explosion or the screen minimizing at the wrong time (that happened to me on a level 40 engineer...so close to emberquake!), but I still think it's obvious that they shouldn't revive. If you can revive, it's exactly the same as soft core - all of the excitement is gone. The only reason to play HC when you allow yourself to revive is that you believe it makes you cooler that your character has a **** stamp. But you should know in your heart that you are NOT **** if you revive. PERIOD. The End.
  • NauzhrorNauzhror Posts: 1,090
    Zidders wrote:
    Nauzhror wrote:
    peti29 wrote:
    Or maybe I should just stop playing EHC and revert to say VSC? But EHC is the only mode I ever experienced teamplay in MP. And I love it so much.

    It doesn't sound like you do love it so much....

    If you loved **** you'd have stayed dead. It's quite clear that what you actually enjoy is softcore.
    Yeah, because everything in life is black and white, right? :roll:

    He died to enemies, he didn't die to some obscure bug or a power outage.

    So, yes, that's fairly black and white.

    He didn't just die once, he said he revived the character repeatedly because it kept dying.
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    "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams
  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,360 ✭✭✭
    Fair enough. I stand corrected and agree.
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  • peti29peti29 Posts: 117
    That's it. HC is unplayable and sh.t. One Eyed **** just killed Johnny 14 when he (O-E-W) was already dead. "Even though you won, still: boom, you're dead ha-ha-ha" - he went. This is no fun (for me at least).
  • RiwRiw Posts: 118
    I am amazed how nearly every player says death is death. No reviving. Ever. This is so true. So ****. But wait, "death is death" is true for all the mobs as well. What is the difference between softcore and HC farming? Almost none. You must stop all farming, otherwise you are denying the death is death principle. Farming is NOT ****.
  • **** death is **** death. That's how Runic programmed the game to operate.

    Farming is possible without cheating. That's how Runic programmed the game to operate.

    If I kill a raccoon that's been picking through my trash, my garbage can does not become immune to further raccoons picking through my trash.
  • NauzhrorNauzhror Posts: 1,090
    peti29 wrote:
    That's it. HC is unplayable and sh.t. One Eyed **** just killed Johnny 14 when he (O-E-W) was already dead. "Even though you won, still: boom, you're dead ha-ha-ha" - he went. This is no fun (for me at least).

    It's certainly not unplayable. People have beaten HCE, and more people will continue to do so.

    While that's true that does not mean its for everyone. It's a game, you should play in the manner you find to be the most enjoyable.
    Wq022Hq.png
    "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams
  • Riw wrote:
    I am amazed how nearly every player says death is death. No reviving. Ever. This is so true. So ****. But wait, "death is death" is true for all the mobs as well. What is the difference between softcore and HC farming? Almost none. You must stop all farming, otherwise you are denying the death is death principle. Farming is NOT ****.

    I play HC because near death experiences are exciting, not because I am trying to make the game more like reality. I don't care about the near death experiences that the non player characters have. I only care about the ones that I have.

    That said, farming isn't exciting either. That's why I'm trying to get together an Ironman group :)
  • peti29peti29 Posts: 117
    Nauzhror wrote:
    It's certainly not unplayable. People have beaten HCE, and more people will continue to do so.

    While that's true that does not mean its for everyone. It's a game, you should play in the manner you find to be the most enjoyable.

    True, maybe I should refine my statement: In it's current state TL2 is not suitable for playing HCE in (public, internet) multiplayer.
    Monsters are boosted too much (IMO) and lags, mp-related bugs, inconsistency from mods, etc. just make it too much pain.
    I may give it another try after a longer break but that will be in singleplayer.
    It's a pity, because the main drive to play EHC for me has been the great teamplay in mp, which is sadly not present in SC.

    (I went on to start an ESC toon after that defeat and the following unacceptable though hilarious incident only confirmed my previous statement: the group consisted of 4 or 5 players when we went to face Grell. The game was severely lagging and Grell was one-shotting people (which he is not used to do if I'm correct) but what's interesting is when he died, monsters kept on spawning (even though we got the loot and the bridge to the guardian). I was killed by (the already dead) Grell (de ja vu?) but luckily this time it was SC so I didn't care. When I returned I saw Grell "dance" stumbling between death animation and attacking. I wasn't able to hit him, but he kept on killing people. Also, mobs still continued to appear (those were damageable). This went on for minutes until finally Grell decided to truly die. It was hilarious but I would have been extremely **** were it happening in a HC game.)
  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,360 ✭✭✭
    Congrats! You've learned something a lot of us learned from playing Diablo III months and months ago:Playing a **** character online is a brutal, misery-inducing task. It's not for people who actually give a **** about their characters.

    The people who seem to slug it out are the ones who either don't mind dying and rerolling constantly, or people who are gluttons for punishment-say, people into games like Dwarf Fortress ("Losing is fun!") or a members of the **** community.
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  • NauzhrorNauzhror Posts: 1,090
    Zidders wrote:
    or people who are gluttons for punishment-say, people into games like Dwarf Fortress ("Losing is fun!")

    Guilty. I love difficult games.
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    "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams
  • What bothers me the most with **** gaming is that games which include the feature was never made with the mode in mind.
    One example is the skill specialization. When taking a look at the available options there is usually a large gap of time before you'll be able to use the setup you'd be interested in. I believe this to be a faulty way of producing games. Because I need to be able to play right away so I can get used to the game and master it.
    Usually, whenever I got a fancy new skill I mess up and die because I don't know how it works. It's annoying in softcore too, when the setup you are interested in lies many hours away and might end up being something you don't like anyway.

    I got some mod now that lets me choose much earlier, so that's probably gonna be fun.
  • NauzhrorNauzhror Posts: 1,090
    Deafjester wrote:
    When taking a look at the available options there is usually a large gap of time before you'll be able to use the setup you'd be interested in. I believe this to be a faulty way of producing games.

    I don't think it's faulty at all.

    Faulty would be a wizard learning something like meteor swarm at level 1 instead of something like burning hands.
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    "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams
  • Ofcourse there can be a level range and time gaps.
    But if you think about it, how much fun is it to play a "sparkly" wizard for 50 hours before you get the nice meteor swarm you were aiming for?
    Sure there's some fun in anticipation, but there are limits.
    Even though it's fun to 'earn' the 'right' to play(think about how wrong that sounds), the game itself needs to be fun and challenging right away, not only at it's upper ranges.

    It's not like I need instant gratification. But honestly, my time is limited, so I want to have fun right now.
    It's like: "You wanna play a wizard you say? Well newbie, first you have to build the tower of Unglionkoru with this toothbrush, expect a good 3500 dusty hours of rockmoving."
  • Deafjester wrote:
    It's not like I need instant gratification. But ... I want to have fun right now.

    I just felt the need to emphasize your contradiction here. Anyway, I think this game is very fast paced 1-50. I think the time to tier 3 bonuses is too slow, though.
  • You feel thats contradictive?
    I always thought games were supposed to be fun.

    Since you are asking, I think it's fair to have something to strive towards, that is part of the fun. I think it's unfair to waste my time and call it content.
  • "I don't want X instantly; I want X right now". That is a contradiction because

    instantly = right now

    Therefore

    "I don't want X instantly; I want X instantly".

    Asserting X and Not X at the same time is a logical contradiction.

    Anyway, I agree that games should always be fun, but I strongly disgaree that the game is paced too slowly. The pacing is fantastic.
  • It is pretty fast paced.
    Still, even if you're the best in the world. At least 20 hours from scratch to reach the final skills, right?

    For me, I'm at 200ish hours and at luminous area softcore and haven't cleared the regent on hc. But I'm not worldclass either.
    Anyway, some might say that 20 hours are alot to wait in order to get the skills you'd play the game with. 200 hours is starting to itch.. Then again, some play games which takes thousands of hours to get everything right, I'm among those and in these games, where things are setup to get it to work(at least theoretically) it's a lot of fun in the planning and anticipation.

    A game such as this one, I'd like the skills earlier. But the leveling pace seems really nice and to max out the skills I can wait for.
    From your point of view, the endgame is too slow but the early game is fast enough. For me, the early game is not diversified enough but I can tackle any kind of length on the endgame.


    It's not a contradiction. Instant gratification means, in this context, that I want all the loot and final level right away. Which I don't, I just want to play something fun. To me that includes having several buttons to push and various things to happen when I do.
    When you generalize like that, as if it's a mathematical formulae, you get the wrong result.
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