[FACTS] Engineer

ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
edited September 2015 in Engineer Discussions
This thread will list all the facts (things we're 100% sure about) concercing the engineer. Reply to this thread with new facts, or comment on posted facts which might be wrong or incomplete. This thread will be updated regularly, keeping in mind patches and changes.

It would be great if one of the devs could confirm or correct certain facts!

Last update: 07/01/2013

- When building up charge through auto-attacks, the more damage you do, the more charge you'll gain.
- Engineer summons (gunbot, spidermines, etc) scale with player level, not with player stats. Only x % pet & minion damage has an effect.
- Allies, pets and minions will benefit from the debuffs given to enemies through Ember Reach and Tremor.
- Base mana regen is 4% from your total mana per second.
- All abilities which apply weapon damage can trigger the Supercharge buff.
- Supercharge damage can only be applied through auto-attacks.
- Any skill or spell with x% of weapon dps or any auto-attack will proc Coup de Grace on a stunned target, but this effect can only occur once per second.
- x% Elemental Damage, for example from the Focus stat, or the "Fire & Spark" passive, does not have any effect on pet/minion attacks.
- Charge **** does not proc from pet/minion attacks.
- x% increase to all damage does not have an effect on pet/minion damage
- The dropped spell 'Animal Handling': when learned to a pet, it only has an effect on the minions summoned by the pet, not those summoned by the player. When learned to a player, it only has an effect on the minions summoned by the player, not those summoned by a pet.
- x% to Secondary targets does not affect Emberquake in any way.
- Emberquake fissures can give you the Supercharge buff, but only if the enemy they're hitting is within approximately melee range when they do so.
- Emberquake does not damage the target with the electrical discharge from the Supercharge buff.
- Emberquake fissures can activate Coup de Grace.
- Emberquake fissures can activate the Heavy Lifting stun.
- Supercharge is triggered as a second attack immediately after your swing (represented by the lightning-like arc). It's not a direct bonus damage to your hit.
- Forcefield affects the zombies from "Summons Zombies" spell.
- Every physical damage source from non-weapon attacks, like from Shield Bash, is boosted by Focus.
- When you have 1 charge available, Tremor will apply weapon-effects like "Conveys x damage over x seconds" or "x% chance to stun".



Pet damage calculator (by LastCorpse)

Thanks to beastmodeengaged for testing some of the facts!
Engineer builds
- Summoner (full vitality)
- Flamehammer (strength/dex)
- Flamehammer (full strength)
- Emberquake (full focus)

Comments

  • gbonesgbones Posts: 60
    Any skill or spell cast by the engineer with x% of weapon dps or any auto-attack by the engineer will proc CdG on a stunned target (once per second).

    I realize there are no spell scrolls with % of weapon dps in vanilla, but I read one of the devs posting that spell scrolls are exactly the same as player skills minus all the UI management in a mods post I can't find now. So I thought it was worth adding that clarification to the statement.
  • Why is whirlpool of after best 2h weapon for an angineer?
  • as far as I know no skills generate charge unless it says in the description that they do
    not sure if using skills on an enemy stops charge from decaying
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    - x% Elemental Damage, for example from the Focus stat, or the "Fire & Spark" passive, does not have any effect on pet/minion attacks.
    - Charge **** does not proc from pet/minion attacks.
    - x% increase to all damage does not have an effect on pet/minion damage

    (updated 1st post)
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    - The dropped spell 'Animal Handling': when learned to a pet, it only has an effect on the minions summoned by the pet, not those summoned by the player. When learned to a player, it only has an effect on the minions summoned by the player, not those summoned by a pet.

    - When a pet summons minions, the cooldown on the dropped summonspells is considerably longer than when a player summons the same ones.

    (updated first post)
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • gbonesgbones Posts: 60
    I know it looks cool to be adding facts and updating the OP, but many are not engineer facts. They are just facts. How about sticking with just engineer facts in your engineer fact post in the engineer forum?
  • Zaloezie wrote:
    - Engineer summons (gunbot, spidermines, etc) scale with player level, not with gear.

    So an item that states % pet and minion damage or health does not affect the summons?
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    Zaloezie wrote:
    - Engineer summons (gunbot, spidermines, etc) scale with player level, not with gear.

    So an item that states % pet and minion damage or health does not affect the summons?

    Yes, it does. I'll add it to the orginal post to be clear!
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • I contest that WoF is the best weapon for an engineer.
    see the 'EQ thread' here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=44579

    I plugged in all the relevant data to both WoF and Invincible, and found that Invincible beats out WoF for EQ damage. The difference was minimal, however, at 411k for WoF vs 412k for Invincible. The comparison considered weapon damage only, both compared with str/dex/foc of 999/500/1486. I zero'd out all gear/skill bonuses for the comparison. I suspect that optimizing gear/skills for either weapon will benefit Invincible more, since the same things to benefit the staff damage also directly benefit EQ base elemental damage, where the same cannot be said for WoF. Also, Invincible has a much higher attack speed, so maybe it will obtain greater benefit from socketables/enchants.
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    Why is whirlpool of after best 2h weapon for an angineer?
    omnirizon wrote:
    I contest that WoF is the best weapon for an engineer.
    see the 'EQ thread' here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=44579

    I plugged in all the relevant data to both WoF and Invincible, and found that Invincible beats out WoF for EQ damage. The difference was minimal, however, at 411k for WoF vs 412k for Invincible. The comparison considered weapon damage only, both compared with str/dex/foc of 999/500/1486. I zero'd out all gear/skill bonuses for the comparison. I suspect that optimizing gear/skills for either weapon will benefit Invincible more, since the same things to benefit the staff damage also directly benefit EQ base elemental damage, where the same cannot be said for WoF. Also, Invincible has a much higher attack speed, so maybe it will obtain greater benefit from socketables/enchants.

    Agreed, naming the 'best' weapon isn't rly possible. I'm gonna remove it from the facts to be clear.

    However, I'd call Whirlpool of Fate the best weapon for a 2-hander engineer because of the way damage output works:
    Because monster armor is flat and not %, and so cuts proportionally more off small hits than it does big ones. Say you are dealing with 6000 armor. Let us also say we have two weapons with technically the same DPS, one swings 3 times a second but only does 7000 damage a hit, while the other swings once a second but does 21000 damage a hit. 7000-6000 = 1000, after 3 hits with weapon 1, you've done only 3000 actual damage. With weapon 2, 21000-6000 = 15000 damage. The reason I'm not accounting for armor shred that Mondons will give you is because you're using 2Hs at all and are doing things correctly [i.e., doing "maximum" DPS] things will not last long enough to ever make armor shred a significant factor. You will simply overpower armor with single massive hits. Of course as weapon DPS goes up and monster armor goes down in relation, this disparity also decreases, but as we are minmaxing, slow weapon alpha is that little bit inherently stronger. There's also the diminishing value [not to be confused with diminishing returns] of aspd relative to weaponspeed. A slow weapon benefits more DPSwise from 30% aspd from HL than an inherently fast weapon does. The only thing a faster weapon can do to supersede is to have better options to increase its base damage [ex. 4 sockets]; however, there are no 2Hs that steps up in that regard.
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • Zaloezie wrote:
    However, I'd call Whirlpool of Fate the best weapon for a 2-hander engineer because of the way damage output works:

    I have to concede you're right. After some more exploring, the +crit chance and damage from WoF put it far beyond anything else in terms of damage for most engineer skills. It's the +crit chance alone that's really responsible for this, merely because it provides phenomenal damage increase AND is so difficult to get on gear from any source.

    really, it's all rather disheartening and makes me disillusioned with this game; very much so in fact. All that is mechanically important about the Engineer (and other classes too, I'd suspect) can be boiled down to a few simple facts. **** it's making me sick! What garbage! Guess I'm going back to play Dungeon Craw Stone Soup. A bunch of dedicated game lovers have crafted a game, for free, with far more intricacy and complexity than any game company ever will.

    EDIT: well maybe it's not as severe as I stated above. The game has it's charm, but it's just terrible that mechanics result in an endgame situation where for each class there is pretty much is a single optimal loadout; and sometime's it's just goofy. For example, with the way all the mechanics work, your best engineer is holding WoF with Str:999, Dex:500, and as much Focus as possible. Usually more Focus than Str, even, yet you're still best off holding a giant Strength based hammer. But because it's really only worthwhile to spam EQ, that hammer is only there to lend some of it's damage and +crit characteristcs that benefit the EQ skill. I get that far BEFORE that endgame situation occurs, the game mechanics make more sense (Str characters wield big hammers and hit things, Foc characters wield staffs and cast spells), but that all becomes a farce knowing that endgame is the ultimate destination. If it isn't, then you're not playing for mechanics anyway, and the game might as well be eyecandy and lense flare with no mechanics at all.

    *le sigh*
  • SlicSlic Posts: 20
    Zaloezie wrote:

    - Engineer summons (gunbot, spidermines, etc) scale with player level, not with player stats. Only x % pet & minion damage has an effect.

    From what I can tell, skill passives like spark (fire+light dmg) adds to spider mine dots, so that's 1 exception.

    I haven't tested if +fire damage and/or +all damage mods/gems add to SM's dot too, may someone with more knowledge of the math do the honors?
    http://www.youtube.com/slicgw
    Torchlight 2 makes me actually enjoy PvE!
    Atali, lvl60+ HCE Engineer, NG+ (it's lonely in the online lobby)
    -Vivere Militare Est-
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    Slic wrote:
    Zaloezie wrote:

    - Engineer summons (gunbot, spidermines, etc) scale with player level, not with player stats. Only x % pet & minion damage has an effect.

    From what I can tell, skill passives like spark (fire+light dmg) adds to spider mine dots, so that's 1 exception.

    I haven't tested if +fire damage and/or +all damage mods/gems add to SM's dot too, may someone with more knowledge of the math do the honors?

    I am pretty confident that Fire&Spark, Focus and %elementaldamage don't have an effect on pet/minion attacks.
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • SogetsuSogetsu Posts: 462
    Oh really nice thread, I was going to answer the Pet and Summon question on the other thread and I just saw this, so you finally found it, I think I was late on this :roll:

    Oh, I just have something to add, when your Pet knows Animal Handling, it doesn't take the Damage Bonus for itself (yes for its Minions) but it takes the Travel to Town Bonus...

    GSFirmaEfectos.jpg
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    Sogetsu wrote:
    when your Pet knows Animal Handling, it doesn't take the Damage Bonus for itself (yes for its Minions) but it takes the Travel to Town Bonus...

    Yup, as far as I know a pet's Animal Handling doesn't have an effect on the pet itself, only the player's Animal Handling. Teaching Animal Handling to both yourself and your pet does indeed seem to stack when it comes to town travel time.

    Yeah, this thread could be a good base for resources. I'm hoping more players can add facts, not only to have a clear overview themselves, but also for new players who have to scroll through forums, often encountering wrong information.

    If this thread gets enough recognition, we should be aiming for a sticky and dev confirmations!
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • SlicSlic Posts: 20
    Zaloezie wrote:
    Slic wrote:
    Zaloezie wrote:

    - Engineer summons (gunbot, spidermines, etc) scale with player level, not with player stats. Only x % pet & minion damage has an effect.

    From what I can tell, skill passives like spark (fire+light dmg) adds to spider mine dots, so that's 1 exception.

    I haven't tested if +fire damage and/or +all damage mods/gems add to SM's dot too, may someone with more knowledge of the math do the honors?

    I am pretty confident that Fire&Spark, Focus and %elementaldamage don't have an effect on pet/minion attacks.

    I suspect the spider mine explosions don't count as 'pet attacks' but count as your own attacks, since you're the one throwing these exploding 'mines'. A closer look at minion speed, etc. and their effect on the mines specifically would be something. My current eng has 15% minion speed atm, and I don't notice a speed diff for the mines, but I do notice a diff for my actual pet.

    If only there was a way to see that dot's damage numbers. Or maybe a runic employee could stumble upon this thread eventually? :)
    http://www.youtube.com/slicgw
    Torchlight 2 makes me actually enjoy PvE!
    Atali, lvl60+ HCE Engineer, NG+ (it's lonely in the online lobby)
    -Vivere Militare Est-
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    Slic wrote:
    If only there was a way to see that dot's damage numbers.

    I'm a bit lazy to go and find it, but I'm pretty sure other people's console tests stated that Fire&Spark, Focus and %elementaldamage don't have an effect on pet & minion attacks.
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • SlicSlic Posts: 20
    Zaloezie wrote:
    Slic wrote:
    If only there was a way to see that dot's damage numbers.

    I'm a bit lazy to go and find it, but I'm pretty sure other people's console tests stated that Fire&Spark, Focus and %elementaldamage don't have an effect on pet & minion attacks.

    No, I was saying that I suspect the spider mine explosion doesn't COUNT as a 'pet & minion attack', but counts as your own attack, even though you're not the one guiding the spiders to their target.

    I've been suspecting it for some time, but they seem to be a weird mix of projectile and minion, and heavier on the 'homing projectile' side. Wish there was some definite proof of some of these things, but I'm currently too lazy to research any of this. Maybe you or someone else could? :)
    http://www.youtube.com/slicgw
    Torchlight 2 makes me actually enjoy PvE!
    Atali, lvl60+ HCE Engineer, NG+ (it's lonely in the online lobby)
    -Vivere Militare Est-
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    - x% to Secondary targets does not affect Emberquake in any way.
    - Emberquake fissures can give you the Supercharge buff (each has the full chance to do so), but only if the enemy they're hitting is within approximately melee range when they do so.
    - Emberquake does not damage the target with the electrical discharge from the Supercharge buff.
    - Emberquake fissures can activate Coup de Grace.
    - Emberquake fissures can activate the Heavy Lifting stun.

    (added to op)
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • I can share some stuff here that I can think up at this moment

    - Supercharge is triggered as a second attack immediately after your swing represented by the lightning-like arc, and not a direct bonus damage to your hit.
    - Forcefield affects the zombies from "Summons Zombies" spell.
    - This is for every class but every physical damage source from non-weapon attacks, like from Shield Bash, is boosted by Focus.

    Could be pretty awesome if you can sort the info above with like headers or something so people can look for it easily.
  • YannosYannos Posts: 89
    "This is for every class but every physical damage source from non-weapon attacks, like from Shield Bash, is boosted by Focus."

    Are you absolutely sure about this? So Shield Bash is not affected only by y times the armor value? And if so, how important is the effect of focus on shield bash?
  • Yannos wrote:
    "This is for every class but every physical damage source from non-weapon attacks, like from Shield Bash, is boosted by Focus."

    Are you absolutely sure about this? So Shield Bash is not affected only by y times the armor value? And if so, how important is the effect of focus on shield bash?

    The shield armor value is still important considering the Shield Bash damage is based on it + the charges. Physical damage from Shield Bash, and like for example Wolfpack from Berserkers, is treated as an "element" by focus you could say so.

    It boosts the physical damage further from it as if it is a fixed damage element damage like poison element Glaive Throw. Whatever the "+x% element damage" you have from focus, it will the physical damage part of Shield Bash.

    Easy to test by adding maybe 1000 Focus to an Engineer then Shield Bash on the dummy, then do it with an Engineer with no Focus.
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    I can share some stuff here that I can think up at this moment

    - Supercharge is triggered as a second attack immediately after your swing represented by the lightning-like arc, and not a direct bonus damage to your hit.
    - Forcefield affects the zombies from "Summons Zombies" spell.
    - This is for every class but every physical damage source from non-weapon attacks, like from Shield Bash, is boosted by Focus.

    Added to op!
    Could be pretty awesome if you can sort the info above with like headers or something so people can look for it easily.

    It sure would; as soon as there are enough facts, I'll start sorting them out!
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • palflaxpalflax Posts: 18
    does anyone know if adrenaline rush is activated through forcefield?
    Level 53 Elite - Shotty Outlander
    Level 63 Elite - 2H Engineer
  • ZaloezieZaloezie Posts: 166
    - When you have 1 charge available, Tremor will apply weapon-effects like "Conveys x damage over x seconds" or "x% chance to stun".

    Added to the first post, thanks to the people in this thread!
    Engineer builds
    - Summoner (full vitality)
    - Flamehammer (strength/dex)
    - Flamehammer (full strength)
    - Emberquake (full focus)
  • Why is whirlpool of after best 2h weapon for an angineer?

    Consider the Netherrealm Glaive. It does have +60% crit damage.

    It does not have the built-in +8% crit chance but it does have 5 sockets, one of which could be the Whorlbarb skull with +10% crit chance.

    It does not have the 90% interrupt chance but who cares if the monsters are dead.
  • Zaloezie wrote:
    - Emberquake fissures can give you the Supercharge buff, but only if the enemy they're hitting is within approximately melee range when they do so.
    - Emberquake does not damage the target with the electrical discharge from the Supercharge buff.
    - Emberquake fissures can activate Coup de Grace.
    - Emberquake fissures can activate the Heavy Lifting stun.
    do you know if these are the same for flame hammer?
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