Fire tree...no control AND the lowest damage?

SolomonGrumpySolomonGrumpy Posts: 496
edited April 2013 in Embermage Discussions
I'm reading through all the info on fire mages here, and I'm seeing something strange...

In most games I play, fire does the most damage, but offers the least (creature) control. Looking at the fire Mage tree though, I see low damage AND no creature control.

Frost wave, Prismatic, and socking orb totally outclass it...Maybe arc beam too? AND none of the skills really benefit from cast speed.

Anyone care to rebutt? I am very confused by all this.

Comments

  • fede1989fede1989 Posts: 263
    Honestly, the fire tree is an exelent damage dealer, magma spear has a brutal dot fire damage, maybe the more dangerous dot of the entire game, infernal collapse does a lot of damage too, an it is an area spell, also, firestorm lowers fire resistance
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  • CeornCeorn Posts: 17
    The fire tree skills have a very good damage, but with the rest of your statement I totally agree. My first character was a fire Embermage, and I am really disappointed about that choose. In the fire tree we have completely nothing for crowd control and quite high cool-down and spell cast time. If you would like to be a fire character, I think that you need to support yourself with crowd control skills from other trees. I have chosen the Death's Bounty, but I am not happy with that. I am playing now NG++ and I am dying too often, usually by getting 1 hit. All in all I think that I have done a mistake taking the fire Embermage for my first character, I should chose the frozen tree which is very good and make your game much easier.
  • BerluchonBerluchon Posts: 30
    The fire tree is still a really good tree to deal dmg, and the most enjoyable, as you have to press more than one button. You shouldn't compare builds or spells with each others, or maybe you should forget about some spells.
  • MaxvorstadtMaxvorstadt Posts: 143
    As far as I`ve seen, the Fire spells in all RPGs do have this lack of crowd control. I learned fast not ot use fire spells in a RPG. I rather use ice spells instead, because in every game these spells do not only damage, but slow or even freeze the ones who want a bite of you!
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  • Berluchon wrote:
    The fire tree is still a really good tree to deal dmg, and the most enjoyable, as you have to press more than one button. You shouldn't compare builds or spells with each others, or maybe you should forget about some spells.

    While I agree that prismatic should not be the standard, I think that there should be some marquis fire skills set the standard for damage. There needs an AoE much earlier than level 42 and I think it is a given that all the casting time delays should be either removed or reduced. And cast speed should be affect more skills...after all, this is an emberMAGE we are talking about...
    The fire tree is still a really good tree to deal dmg, and the most enjoyable, as you have to press more than one button. You shouldn't compare builds or spells with each others, or maybe you should forget about some spells.

    I'm not saying the skills are useless, I am saying that the skills don't deal heavy damage. what fire skill would you suggest using for a boss fight. 1 on 1? Because the damage modifiers on many skills seems...low. or decent, but not spammable.
  • BerluchonBerluchon Posts: 30
    I'm not saying the skills are useless, I am saying that the skills don't deal heavy damage. what fire skill would you suggest using for a boss fight. 1 on 1? Because the damage modifiers on many skills seems...low. or decent, but not spammable.

    What I meant by one button build is that either frost or thunder, you end up spamming frost wave, pbolt, shocking orb or shock bolt. The game become "somthing moving ? np i press dis button".
    what fire skill would you suggest using for a boss fight. 1 on 1?

    Well... lvl1 prismatic bolt i'd guess lol. Until your fire spells deal decent damages.
  • Berluchon wrote:
    I'm not saying the skills are useless, I am saying that the skills don't deal heavy damage. what fire skill would you suggest using for a boss fight. 1 on 1? Because the damage modifiers on many skills seems...low. or decent, but not spammable.

    What I meant by one button build is that either frost or thunder, you end up spamming frost wave, pbolt, shocking orb or shock bolt. The game become "somthing moving ? np i press dis button".

    Berserkers have Raze, Outlanders have chaos burst, or rapid fire, Ice mages have frost wave. Fire mages...?
  • FinrazielFinraziel Posts: 505
    I actually respecced my current mage to fire and at least at around lvl 50 they are at least very viable. I've had to revise my standpoint on Firebombs, it's quite awesome, and when combined with Death's Bounty, it is indeed as if enemies stand still they move so slowly :P. And at least for non champions/bosses I don't think it can be resisted (even on most champions it works like a charm).
    As for damage, magma spear is very good for your early level needs. I usually prefer it as my starting spell over PB, regardless of which build I'm going for. Then Infernal collapse does awesome damage, it just takes a little bit of getting used to its delay both in doing the damage and being able to cast another one.
    Firestorm... I'm sad to say... blows donkey ****. I use it to destroy containers and otherwise it goes unused unless there's a champion or a boss when the increased firedamage is actually useful and stuff lives long enough for the DoT to do anything. Well okay maybe I'm being too harsh, it doesn't **** per se, it just really REALLY **** when compared to hailstorm. Hailstorm does slightly less damage, but it does it all at once whereas firestorm is a very spread out DoT that wont stack on itself. So on damage it loses out, big time. I do have to amend that I don't have it at rank 10 yet, maybe the burning splinters turn the tide, but I doubt it. But firestorm buffs your fire damage right? Yes, but hailstorm buffs ice AND lightning and by a bigger percentage! Firestorm debuffs your enemies though right? They do less fire damage! Yeah... less fire damage... how many monsters do you know that do fire damage? This is worthless even without comparing it to hailstorm that has a really good chance to stun AND freeze (firestorm doesn't even set things burning beyond the regular chance from doing fire damage as far as I'm aware). And to top it all off, firestorm is a top tier skill while you get hailstorm at lvl 7... It's like whoever designed this REALLY hated fire.

    All in all, with the sidenote that firemages are certainly viable, I do have to agree that a mostly ice oriented build is easier and more powerful. It's a lot of fun though, in part because you are more vulnerable than with an ice build. My current char was centered around hailstorm and shocking orb... when I decided I hated shocking orb I swapped it out for frost wave (basically reverting to a build I've played before), but it's just too easy. You move on until you see enemies, hailstorm them and if anything survives flood the screen with frostwaves. Repead ad infinitum, only broken up by the occasional boss.
    Now with fire, it takes some more skill to make sure monsters are hit with firebombs and death's bounty, and then killed with infernal collapse. It is slower though, and more dangerous.

    edit: Oh yeah, one other thing. Just because your favorite attack spell doesn't throw out more casts with a better castspeed does not mean cast speed is of no use to you. First off, you get to be mobile faster again after you start casting. Second, if you don't have to move, just cast different spells after another. The actual cast times are reduced and while you're waiting for the cooldown, fill it up with something else and you will actually increase your damage output with higher castspeed.
  • Reeload69Reeload69 Posts: 420
    As far as I`ve seen, the Fire spells in all RPGs do have this lack of crowd control. I learned fast not ot use fire spells in a RPG. I rather use ice spells instead, because in every game these spells do not only damage, but slow or even freeze the ones who want a bite of you!

    World of Warcraft fire mage. Your point is invalid. :)
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  • MaxvorstadtMaxvorstadt Posts: 143
    @Reload69: I said: As far as I know. I don`t play WOW so I don`t know about the Fire Mage in this game. To be honest, there has been one (and only one) Fire Magic that was usefull in all the RPGs I played, and that was the Firewall-Spell in Diablo 1. It was very usefull if you stood in a door and had a room full of mobs right in front of you: just cast one Firewall after the other till the room is filled with fire and all mobs turned into crispy Bic Macs!
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  • Do not know what you meant by low damage, IC and BP do very good damage. Also firebombs is one crowd control skill with the highest slow available to embermage. Yes, fire is not about spamming but about chain casting, but that just makes it more interesting to try different builds.
  • fede1989fede1989 Posts: 263
    Berluchon wrote:
    I'm not saying the skills are useless, I am saying that the skills don't deal heavy damage. what fire skill would you suggest using for a boss fight. 1 on 1? Because the damage modifiers on many skills seems...low. or decent, but not spammable.

    What I meant by one button build is that either frost or thunder, you end up spamming frost wave, pbolt, shocking orb or shock bolt. The game become "somthing moving ? np i press dis button".

    Berserkers have Raze, Outlanders have chaos burst, or rapid fire, Ice mages have frost wave. Fire mages...?
    Magma spear and infernal collapse, for lower resist, firestorm
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  • fede1989 wrote:
    Magma spear and infernal collapse, for lower resist, firestorm

    So, you think magma spear compares with Raze?

    Infernal collapse is not spamable, though I would agree from looking at the numbers - the damage looks very decent
  • FinrazielFinraziel Posts: 505
    Raze is not a "somthing moving ? np i press dis button" skill... It does awesome damage but it's singletarget, so if that's the only thing you ever use you'll run into trouble real soon. Also, it likes eating mana. So you'll always be combining it with something else. In that sense it's actually quite comparable to infernal collapse, although IC's cooldown really gets much more manageable once you rank it up.
    Also, why are you comparing classes (berserkers, outlanders) to specific builds (firemages, icemages)?
  • FDruFDru Posts: 172
    Reeload69 wrote:
    As far as I`ve seen, the Fire spells in all RPGs do have this lack of crowd control. I learned fast not ot use fire spells in a RPG. I rather use ice spells instead, because in every game these spells do not only damage, but slow or even freeze the ones who want a bite of you!

    World of Warcraft fire mage. Your point is invalid. :)

    Fire mages in WoW didn't have any CC until Burning Crusade, other than a very short (talented) stun on a long cooldown. Frostfire Bolt didn't even exist. Blast Wave was only on some bosses...

    Anyway, it would make sense for fire magic to have some kind of knockback component, since you can't have fire without air. Cold can have the roots/slows. Electric should have stuns. Utility is just too important. Why should any element be left in the dust?
  • Finraziel wrote:
    Raze is not a "somthing moving ? np i press dis button" skill... It does awesome damage but it's singletarget, so if that's the only thing you ever use you'll run into trouble real soon. Also, it likes eating mana. So you'll always be combining it with something else. In that sense it's actually quite comparable to infernal collapse, although IC's cooldown really gets much more manageable once you rank it up.
    Also, why are you comparing classes (berserkers, outlanders) to specific builds (firemages, icemages)?

    I am comparing because I did not find a skill that helped me in boss fights where I could go toe to toe. MY orignal comment is even in the thread:
    "I'm not saying the skills are useless, I am saying that the skills don't deal heavy damage. what fire skill would you suggest using for a boss fight. 1 on 1? Because the damage modifiers on many skills seems...low. or decent, but not spammable. "

    At that point, I did not even have infernal collapse.

    Edit: I find myself agreeing with you, Fdru
  • FinrazielFinraziel Posts: 505
    Well I was referring to your earlier post where you talked about what you meant by one button builds and then went on to give raze as an example, but anyway, guess that's not quite what you meant then.
    I don't entirely disagree with you either, I think the fire tree isn't that great, but it's not that bad either. Mostly I think firestorm could use a boost. You say you can't spam infernal collapse, but really once you get a bit up in ranks the cooldown isn't that bad. It may not fire as often, but it can be targetted anywhere and does massive damage. Also, try turning that cooldown to your advantage, frost phase to safety, let loose your blazing pillars, cover the floor in fire with firebombs, throw out some magma spears to get a DoT going.
    Frost wave may be quite awesome, but at range it's a lot less effective because the pathing is random and it too isn't really worth using until you get it to at least rank 5 and the disadvantage of a skill that you cast constantly like that is that you have to stop casting it if you want to combine it with anything else. That may seem obvious, but it means that you shouldn't compare only casting IC and then waiting until you can cast another IC against constantly casting frost wave. It just takes a bit more skill to juggle so many skills together and make them effective instead of holding down a button.

    I also wouldn't say that the fire tree is worse than the lightning tree. Maybe it's possible to make the lightning skills work, but most of them really need dedication to do so. Prismatic bolt is their one simple easy kill everything without thinking about it skill, but really, it's not actually a lightning skill is it? It uses all elements and the designers just happened to place it on the lightning tab, but I would never call a PB mage a lightning mage.

    As for what skill to use against a boss? All of them! Well, except for magma mace, and magma spear only until it gets replaced by higher level skills (although if you find the time, with enough cast speed and skill, you could even keep it in to apply even more DoT). If you didn't have IC yet, then an ice mage wouldn't have frost wave yet either. Try killing a boss with Icy Blast, believe me, you'll suddenly love magma spear. And you may already have Firebombs and Blazing Pillar which both can help a lot. Ice mage at that point has Hailstorm, which is an awesome skill, but doesn't do all that much against a boss really, especially at low level.
  • fede1989fede1989 Posts: 263
    fede1989 wrote:
    Magma spear and infernal collapse, for lower resist, firestorm

    So, you think magma spear compares with Raze?

    Infernal collapse is not spamable, though I would agree from looking at the numbers - the damage looks very decent
    not exactly, magma spear does almost no damage when it hits but does a f**king lot of DoT damage, most trash mobs are dead with only one fireball hiting them, you almost dont need to sustain fire

    And, just like raze magma spear is DPS based, so it aplies a lot of weapon modificators plus staff mastery and wand chaos
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  • GraeystoneGraeystone Posts: 1,545
    The problem with Inferno Tree is that it takes for what seems like FOREVER to get the Higher Skills properly strengthened. In one build I tried was for Blazing Pillar as primary source of damage. I didn't start using it until I got it to about Skill Level 5 mainly because of the low damage(which was odd because my only Stat Investment was Focus. . .) and the miserable Recharge Time of the Skill at the beginning. Worst of all is the Skill's lousy targeting system on top of each Pillar only hitting a target 'once'. Seriously, I could plant Four Pillars on a Champion and it would only be hit four times while I'm running around waiting for BP to recharge! As for Firestorm. . .what a waste!

    I hope Runic rebalances some of these skills to be more reasonable.
  • SoulFlameSoulFlame Posts: 29
    FDru wrote:
    Fire mages in WoW didn't have any CC until Burning Crusade, other than a very short (talented) stun on a long cooldown. Frostfire Bolt didn't even exist. Blast Wave was only on some bosses...

    Blast Wave is normally being considered CC in fire talent tree for PvP spec (it is not so call 100% fire spec due to PoM/Pyro). Maybe i did not have a lot of epxerience in raiding with WoW, but since when Bosses in WoW need to be CC? it is usually the thrash mobs that need to be CC.

    Back on topic, for my EM the damage for fire skill tree are comparable to other tree, in fact for single target IC hit like a truck. Although it is depend on your gears and play styles. So, by saying the damage for fire tree seems to be lackluster compare to other tree is not valid to me due to different gear choices.

    In terms of skills, fire tree does not have any real spam able ability like FW/IB for frost and PB for lightning, although PB is not pure lightning element. To be effective in terms of damage you need to make sure to be able to hit monster will all the wave at point blank or use any wall to make the wave bounce, this is how some peoples can get FW damage up to 1m+. I am not saying that suddenly FW is bad, in fact FW is overwhelming considering it proc brand and at the same time and deal a lot of damage while slowing/freezing monster. No point in explaining PB with all the spam and forget due to brand proc i guess.

    For boss fight, important skills that i always use is MS (dots for this skills is very insane) and BP if boss have mobs other skills will follow the priority orders and the occasion FP for mobility. Imo, in torchlight fire tree appear to be for me as constant dps while maintaining good damage and not burst oriented spec like any other RPG/MMO.

    In terms of CC, frost will win due to slow and freeze effect, and by far better than fire spell (area specific Firebombs slow and flee and also tricky knockback from IC). From my experience the skill curve that you need to reach fire spec full potential due to usage of higher number of spells is maybe a tad higher compare to playing with FW or PB build
  • Unless you are going for a spec that is ONLY in the fire tree you're going to have Frost Phase, so CC is kinda just meh anyways. Infernal Collapses damage is insane when speced for it and it has nice knockback. It also has reliable AOE damage where ever, when ever you need it.
  • Moose123Moose123 Posts: 198
    At max level blazing pillars does more damage that frostwave and magma spear's dot is waaaayyyy higher. Infernal collapse+fire brand is very close to prismatic bolts with full brands damage wise, and is semi spamable with just a 1 second cooldown the knock back is also nice. Firestorm is only worth 1 point for bosses and tough mobs but it does that well enough. Fire bombs is a nice way to cause damage on advancing foes. Max damage of infernal collapse+firestom at 1 point is more than double that of a frost wave+tier 3 hailstorm(granted it is very likely that more than one wave will hit the target, buit you have to be quite close for tis, whereas IC you can be wherever you want.)
    PB is overpowered and no other embermage skill is really comparable to it.

    I don't think fire is as bad as everyone is saying, yes it is hard to make a full firemage work like a full frostmage, but at least the frosted hills won't be living(or dying) **** :P

    With only 7 points in the frost tree your CC problems can be solved quite effectively, and with one point ice brand you can get a nice little boost to damage aswell.
  • FinrazielFinraziel Posts: 505
    I don't think fire is "that bad" either, but your arguments don't really work...
    BP may do a lot of damage, but the cooldown is pretty bad, even at max level.
    MS has a nice DoT, but it's damage that only gets applied if you then wait around for 6 seconds which is a LONG time in a fastpaced game like this, and it does not stack with itself.
    IC is definitely nice, but only 1 wave hitting isn't really realistic, especially since you are talking about max level where you throw out 5 waves per cast. Also, FW benefits from faster cast, so if you get some faster cast you'll easily throw out three frost waves for every two IC's.
    FB is definitely nice, yes, no argument there. It's nice because of its slow though, not really for the damage although it's not that bad in that regard either.

    Finally, you're talking max level, but you do have to get there first. At lower level, the balance definitely shifts more toward the ice spells due to fire's cooldowns. You can make up a lot of lost ground by simply casting different fire spells in eachother's cooldowns, but it is more complicated than the ice ones and more dangerous because you have to actually think about what you're doing whereas ice spells will simply freeze/stun/immobilize everything with the same spells that do your damage.
    Firemages are very viable, but if you're not so great at the game yet and just want something that doesn't die all the time, ice is probably preferable as your main attack element.

    edit: Also, I think the problems ice mages have in the frosted hills get exaggerated sometimes... It never really bothered me that much more (well, those mages are always annoying, but they are regardless of what attack element you use).
  • MorwysMorwys Posts: 60
    I'm playing a fire build, using Death's Bounty + IC combo, Magma Spear for bosses and constant BP casting. I'm new to the game, so I can't really compare, but I've found it immensely effective. BP in particular, when used wisely, has monstrous damage. I'll try different builds so I have a better understanding, but from my perspective, a fire build is a lot of fun.
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