WAND vs STAFF

URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
edited April 2015 in Embermage Discussions
Hello!
I am new here, I play torchlight for about six months, but I am still confused about several things. I would like you to help me with understanding of these things, and help me with creating my own equip.

I will start with my character summary:
    I have Level 93 Embermage at Elite difficult (NG++). I use ascendant set, and these weapon configs: As a main weapon, I use this staff:
lzBA9.jpg
(those empty slots should he filled with +10% critical chance gems)

And as a secondary weapon config, I use this wand (wands - I am still unsure about the combination of two wands, and wand + shield variant)
X78C3.jpg
I use this wand(s) for boss fight only. I simply hit boss with the wand attack, dealing him wand damage + damage from chaos effect + Zardon's skull effect, then I switch to main weapon, since it says that it has higher magic damage, and continue fight on large distance.

I use these spells:
5wzL1.jpg
Hailstorm + infernal collapse for long range bombardment - Hailstorm for bigger group of enemies on large place, and collapse as a concentrated nuclead bomb for one target(s) on small place
Frost phase for fast teleport (I found benefits of this spell useless, so I use only level 2, I use it only as a teleport away)
Frost wave for incomming enemies from one direction
Prismatic bolt as a guided missiles into all dierctions
Thunder locus - I don't really use this spell very often, but it is useful especially on Tarrochs tomb
Wand chaos - for various damage effect when fighting with bosses
Charge mastery - since I don't go full focus, I spent my points into dexterity to get 0 funble penalty, and strength to get max critical damage bonus, my mana can sometimes fall too fast - getting charge often and for longer duration means infinite mana during fight.
Other spells - brands - mainly because I wanted to use all elements, and becuause I didn't know, where to spend other points

I don't want to use too many active spells.

As you can see, I use VARIOUS elements, so I don't have ONLY ice, or ONLY fire, or ONLY chaos tree, as some people have (I don't exactly understand what is the point of this - using all elements is much more effective than concentrating on one)
And as you can see, I don't have any DPS spell (although it wasn't intention - I just found those spells useless)

So, this is my character equip. And here goes my questions:

PART 01: INTRODUCTION: What should I use? Wand? Or Staff? My goal is to reach as much damage output as I can, so I want to get the strongest weapon, and use it.
    In this topic, I will use two therms: Weapon's attack, and spell attack. The first one is the attack which does weapon by itself, and the second one is just attack by using any spell. I also use gem for both of the socketables > gems, and skulls

PART 02: What exactly DPS is, and what it affects?
    I completely don't understand this system in torchlight. Both, wand and staves have their own attack, right? Let's forget on spells now. This DPS, I assume that it says what damage does that weapon directly by using this weapon attack, right? So DPS 1404 on staff means that I deal 1404 damage per second by punching the enemy with staff, and 1343 DPS on wand means that I do 1343 damage per second by using that magic laser comming from wand, is that right? Now I tried to use gems, and watched how they affects regular spells (NOT the weapon's own attack). I used Gem of Zardon on my staff, and I used prismatic bolt. Guess what. It didn't count. I could hit dummy as many times as I could, but the effect of gem counted only if I used direct attack with the weapon => meele attack with staff, or magic beam with wand. Which means that for me, as a wizard, is using staff pointless, because the point of using magic is to stay away. And if I want to benefit from gem bonuses on my weapon, then the only option is using wand.
+1 point for wand.

So I assumed that gems attached on staffs / wands affects only the weapon's own attack. From this logic, I can put anything on weapons, but they are just separated tools, and they act like sticks if I use any different attack than their own attack => spells. So from this point of view, why do we use them anyway?

BUT! Then I used gem which increase speed attack, and, voila, it suddenly affected the magic output! What the ****? I was clearly throwing prismatic bolt faster. So, some gems don't affect the attack, and some does? How does this work?

From my point of view, if I use weapon, and put something on it, then it doesn't matter what kind of attack do I use, these gems should count. But, it somehow doesn't work that way. Why? Thats the question. It's confusing,....

PART 03: What is MAGIC damage, and how is it affected?
    If you look at statistics of both weapons, wand and staff, you see that even if they have almost the same DPS, their magic damage is very different. What the ****? Can someone explain me that? From my view, it means that using staff will actually deal more damage to enemies than using wand?
+ 1 point for staff
And WHAT kind of attack it describes? Weapon's attack, or spell attack? Can someone clearly tell me what are these numbers telling me, and why are these numbers much higher on staffs statistics?

Simply, if I use STAFF with 1500 DPS and it says in staff description that there is a chance to change enemy into frog, and I use prismatic bolt, how does the DPS affect the magic output, and will the staff bonus count?
And the same for WAND, if I have wand, that has 1500 DPS, and there is a chance to strike a meteor, and I cast frost wave, how does the DPS affect the attack, and will there be a chance to strike that meteor?
Why are magic damages different, even if the weapons have the same DPS?

From my point of view, a wand is just small staff, and if they have the same DPS, they also should have the same power, and casting the same spells from both of them should do the same work. But, it somehow doesn't work that way. THis is...also..confusing.

PART 04: DPS spells.
    The most common argument in the question STAFF vs WAND is probably the fact, that there are spells, way different from others. Their effectivity is based on DPS. Their damage is like: ****% of the weapon DPS. ANd people always says that person, who uses these spells, should automatically use the staff because of DPS boost. But what if DPS of that staff are the same as with wand? (I don't even mention that I don't use any DPS spell) And how are these spells different from the othes? Are these spells more effective? Does that mean, that if I use frost wave, and I don't have any weapon in my hands, it will still deal **** damage, which is in the spell description, while the DPS spell will be zero, because it takes ****% from 0?

PART 05: Dual wielding
    So, how does this work? I have two same wands, both of them have 1500 DPS, ok? Now, the first question, will two wands affect spell attack? (ignore dual wielding bonuses on wands and dual wielding spell in invertory) WIll there be any difference in damage, if I use prismatic bolt in situation with two wands, and in situation with one wand? And what about DPS spells? Will two wands act like double 1500 DPS? Another question. EVEN if I use two wands, the magic damage is the same, and it is still MUCH LOWER than the magic damage of staff. I don't get it. And now I use weapon's attack. When I strike the enemy, sometimes both wands fire, sometimes only one fires. Lets say that we have the first situation. What damage will be dealt? Double 1500 per second?
+1 point for wand.
And now, we already know that gems attached on wands can affect the attack if I use wand's own attack. Lets say that I use gem of Zardon one more time. Which means, that if I hit my enemy with one wand, which has one gem, the enemy will receive 794 damage next five seconds (3970 during 5 seconds). But, what if I use two gems on one wand? And what if I use two wands, and both of them will have two gems? Will it be 794*4 per one second? (15 880 during five seconds)? If so, then it is another +1 point for wand.

So in summary, I am trying to figure, what is better for me, and my combination of spells, to use. But these are the things, which I don't understand. And that magic damage number is still confusing. If I were looking only at magic damage, then I should logically use the staff, but people are telling me that using staff without DPS spells is pointless.

Comments

  • GeistGeist Posts: 128
    1. Neither of those are doing much for you, because your spells aren't using weapon DPS. Obviously if you want to continue using Wand Chaos you will need a wand. It would be more useful to find a wand with increased Cast Speed however.

    2. Yes, DPS is the damage per second of the weapon's basic attack. Effects that modify DPS won't change your skills' damage unless they are based on weapon DPS, but you can socket things to increase critical hit chance, critical damage, and cast speed.

    3. Magic damage is just the damage of your weapon minus the physical portion. This "magic" damage is increased by both strength and focus, while the physical damage is only increased by strength. I'm not sure why they felt this was necessary or useful information on the character sheet.

    Special effects on the weapon like chance to cast Meteor Strike won't happen unless the skill is DPS based, and even then it depends on the skill.

    4. One way to think of it is that DPS spells are only as good as the weapon you wield. Although you don't necessarily need a twohanded weapon like a staff in order to get high DPS.

    Yes, you can test your Frost Wave barehanded and see that the damage is the same, but you could still enchant a weapon with extra Focus or cast speed to make your Frost Wave more effective.

    5. DPS skills only draw damage from the primary weapon when dual wielding, but some effects on the offhand weapon will still apply, like chance to cast ___ from target (not on hit).

    When you use basic weapon attacks, you have a chance to Execute, which is a single attack using the combined damage of both weapons. Damage over time socketed into the weapon will stack, but not from the offhand weapon.

    ---
    For your skillset, I'd say either dual wands or wand and shield.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    edited April 2015
    I don't understand, what is that magic damage, and WHY if I wear staff, this number is insanly higher than if I wear wand. I still don't exactly know, what it means. If this number tells me what is my magic damage, then wearing that staff should be the best option, because the magic damage is like 28K, or not?

    But, from what you just said, if I understand that correctly, with my skillset, its not important what weapon do I use, and what DPS has that weapon, I can do the same damage with every single spell, and it doesn't matter if I wear wand or staff with 1500 DPS or wand / staff with 20 DPS, it just act like a stick, and it has the same effect as if I didn't wear any weapon, UNTIL I use DPS spell, which is dirrectly affected by the weapon DPS, or UNTIL I use some gem, which affects the final attack, tell me, is this it?
    And the only reason to wear this wand / staff is to use the effect of the gems, which can affect the attack, just like critical chance / cast speed gem? So, you say that what I basically need is the wand or staff (no matter what DPS it has) with many sockets? If all I need is the stick as a socket tool, the best choice would then be the Netherrealm staff or wand, they have the biggest number of sockets, is that correct?

    Let me just verify it on this example:
    I have three situations. In two of them, I will use different STAFFS, in the last situation, I will not use any weapon:
    
    FIRST SITUATION                                                  SECOND SITUATION                                                  THIRD SITUATION
    STAFF 1                                                          STAFF 2                                                           Empty hands
    Two slots                                                        Two slots
    Level 35                                                         Level 105
    DPS like 300                                                     DPS like 1400
    MAGIC DAMAGE in statistics while wearing this staff: 3000-6000   MAGIC DAMAGE in statistics while wearing this staff: 1900-28000   MAGIC DAMAGE in statistics says 86-86
    
    These staffs have both various effects, but we will ignore these effects for now - I will bring them back later (since some of them can actually affect the final attack and the final result if I am correct - like cast speed etc)
    
    Now, you say that there will be NO difference in damage. I will use any spell from my current skill set, and since none of them uses DPS, with what you said, I should do the same damage in every situation, no matter that in third situation, it says that I do only 86 damage, is that correct?
    

    If so, then I am starting to understand this weird system. If no, then I am still completely lost.

    Now lets talk about those effects and gems. From what you say, some effects and gems apply if I use any of my spells (from my skillset), and some not.
    Those are probably:
    +**** *insert skill here*
    Example:
    +60 FOCUS
    +60 DEXTERITY
    
    +****% critical chance
    +****% critical damage
    +****% cast speed

    What else?

    So, if I am right, those enchants on my staff / wand, are useless for me, because they just increase DPS, and the weapon attack, but they don't affect my spells, like prismatic bolt. I should probably disenchant them, and use enchants, which can apply on my skills, and the same do with the gems, use gems, which can apply on my attack, like those with effects written above. Right?

    But I still don't see the difference between using STAFF or WAND, and I still don't have straignt answer, which one to use (ignore wand chaos now). From what you say, it should be the same, if they have both the same slots, the same gems used (ignore effects), the only difference is, that using two netherreal wands would bring me 8 useful slots, instead of five by using the Netherrealm staff. So, I can basically use two netherrealm wands, fill them with +6% speed cast, and my magic will be turbo boosted (8* +6%?)?

    There is also a question about two wands. Lets say that I have two Netherrealm wands now, which is 8 slots, and my goal is to reach 0% fumble chance and 100% critical chance (so simply every single shoot will be critical +450% damage, which is very useful). To reach this goal with my current equip, I would need to get 4x +10% critical chance gems (because currently without any weapon or shield, I have +65% chance), and one Claptrap's Nut gem, to completely get rid of fumble chance. And the rest of the slots would be used for cast speed. Would that work as I said? Would all gems apply from both wands at the same time? If I use for example Prismatic bolt, I should never fumble my attack, and every single shoot should be critical, right? And the same should apply for any different spell which I use.
  • GeistGeist Posts: 128
    URIELX wrote:
    I don't understand, what is that magic damage, and WHY if I wear staff, this number is insanly higher than if I wear wand.
    I explained magic damage in #3 last post. The difference you're seeing is because the character sheet displays damage from one attack, not the DPS. A slow staff and a fast wand can have similar DPS, but the damage per attack is higher on the staff.
    If so, then I am starting to understand this weird system. If no, then I am still completely lost.
    Yes, it sounds like you're getting it.
    What else?
    Pretty much anything that affects your character directly, rather than the weapon itself. If it adds to anything in your Arcane Statistics(aside from weapon DPS), it should be fair game.
    So, if I am right, those enchants on my staff / wand, are useless for me, because they just increase DPS, and the weapon attack, but they don't affect my spells, like prismatic bolt. I should probably disenchant them, and use enchants, which can apply on my skills, and the same do with the gems, use gems, which can apply on my attack, like those with effects written above. Right?

    But I still don't see the difference between using STAFF or WAND, and I still don't have straignt answer, which one to use (ignore wand chaos now). From what you say, it should be the same, if they have both the same slots, the same gems used (ignore effects), the only difference is, that using two netherreal wands would bring me 8 useful slots, instead of five by using the Netherrealm staff. So, I can basically use two netherrealm wands, fill them with +6% speed cast, and my magic will be turbo boosted (8* +6%?)?
    Right.
    Would that work as I said? Would all gems apply from both wands at the same time? If I use for example Prismatic bolt, I should never fumble my attack, and every single shoot should be critical, right? And the same should apply for any different spell which I use.
    Yes, although only basic weapon attacks can fumble. Skills never do. Prismatic Bolt does have a very low critical chance per bolt, even if your character has 100%. Your other skills like Frost Wave and Infernal Collapse would crit every time.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    Thank you for your current help, however, I am still unsure about what weapon should I use, there is simply too much factors, and I still don't completely understand how some things work. Let me then ask you few more question. I would like to get straight answeres, so I will ask as dirrectly as I can.

    But let's start with my goal summary:
    You already know my skillset, though I changed several things. Since I am going to focus on using SKILL only, I no longer need wand chaos, despite it is amazing skill. I am going to focus only on the weapons and their effects, which can dirrectly affect damage done by my skills. I have created this current skillset:
    http://torchlight.ingame.de/torchlight-2/kalkulatoren/torchlight-2-skill-calculator/?eng,embermage,100,33,0,0,0,0,15,0,0,0,10,12,0,15,1,0,15,0,0,0,10,12,15,0,15,0,0,0,0,0,0,12,0,0,0,0
    
    If you could check it one more time to get updated information about my skillset, I would be glad.

    The first thing I would like to know is, what should be my goal? Is this build right dirrection? Or I should focus on different build?
    To be more accurate what I mean, I will give you these questions:

    Q1: If only basic attacks can fumble, does that mean that any of my skills will NEVER fumble?

    Q2: Strength increase all weapon damage, so that means, it increases only damage done by using weapon attack, not by skills?

    Since I am not going to use my weapon as an attack tool, but just as a socket / effects tool, then:

    If Q1 answer is yes, then the only reason to keep my points in Dexterity would be to raise the critical chance.

    If Q2 answer is yes, then the only reason to keep my points in strength would be to keep critical damage at max value, which is +450% (ignoring other armour / weapon bonuses to critical damage).

    And that brings me into doubt, if this whole direction is good, or wrong. At this current state, my goal is to reach +450% critical damage, and +100% critical chance, which would mean that every single skill would do critical damage +450% without exception. This can be done if I have 1000 points in strength, and like 485 points in dexterity (and of course armour / weapon bonuses to reach 100% critical chance)

    BUT, what if I would go different way? What if I put everything into focus instead?

    Q3: What would give me better skill damage?
    Having 100% critical hits with +450% damage while having only like 1000 focus points
    OR
    Having ALL points in focus while the critical damage and chance would be extremly low?
    Which option would be better? Which option would give me better skill damage?

    Prismatic Bolt does have a very low critical chance per bolt, even if your character has 100%.
    Q4: I have tried it on dummy with my current +57 critical chance, and I did like 7/10 critical hits, was that just random, or you are wrong? I mean, would prismatic bolts seriously do (sometimes) only regular damage without crit, even at 100% chance? Because I didn't notice much lower number of non critical hits while using prismatic bolt during my gameplay (I am at NG++)
    I explained magic damage in #3 last post. The difference you're seeing is because the character sheet displays damage from one attack, not the DPS. A slow staff and a fast wand can have similar DPS, but the damage per attack is higher on the staff.
    Q5: So, if both, wands, and staff have the same DPS, wand has lower damage but faster attack and staff has higher damage but slower attack. Then overall damage done per one period is the same. Right?

    Q6: MAGIC damage shows only the power of attack by using dirretcly the WEAPON's attack, not skills, is that right?

    If so, I probably know how it works now.

    Q7: To comfirm that, could you please tell me straight answer on my example, written in the previous post?

    Q8: I know that I have already asked this, but, wearing two wands with two gems on each wand, does it have the SAME effect as wearing one wand with 4 gems? Or are there any exceptions? You said that while dual wielding and using DPS spells, spells use only the first wand's DPS, and from the second wand, they use only effects. In that case. does this apply on gems too? Do the gems from the second wand have the same value as the gems from the first wand?

    I need to know these facts first, after then, I can continue asking you about weapons, because, based on your answers, if I really found my current armour equip, my current attributes, enchants, not as effective, If there is different way, better way, I would need to completely rework my concept, which wouldn't be problem for me, but it would also change my weapon demands.

    Thank you
  • GeistGeist Posts: 128
    Your new build still isn't using weapon DPS skills, so nothing has changed in terms of weapon selection.

    1. Answered in previous post.
    2. Correct, unless it's a DPS skill. Then the STR bonus will be reflected in that skill's percentage of the weapon DPS.
    3. Criticals do more damage by far. If you socket your weapons for critical chance and damage, you can save many points in STR and DEX that can go into FOC instead. This will cost you some cast speed, but it doesn't matter much when one casting kills everything. On the other hand, farming rare skulls is more troublesome than transmuting some chaos embers, so it's up to you.
    4. Prismatic Bolts trigger Fire, Ice, and Lightning Brands rapidly, so you're likely seeing those crit more than the bolts themselves. I can confirm that on a 100% critical character, PB does not always crit.
    5. That's what I said.
    6. Ditto.
    7. I answered pretty straightforwardly. What part are you still stuck on?
    8. Anything that modifies your character's stats and not the weapons' will apply equally from both weapons, whether it be from gems, enchants, or whatever. With DPS skills, some effects from the offhand will apply and others won't, but it depends on the skill in question.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    To be honest, if it would be possible, I would always want to get straignt answer, like yes, or no, I am just trying to understand that all, but thanks anyway, it exaplained me a lot.
    Geist wrote:
    2. Correct, unless it's a DPS skill. Then the STR bonus will be reflected in that skill's percentage of the weapon DPS.
    3. Criticals do more damage by far. If you socket your weapons for critical chance and damage, you can save many points in STR and DEX that can go into FOC instead. This will cost you some cast speed, but it doesn't matter much when one casting kills everything. On the other hand, farming rare skulls is more troublesome than transmuting some chaos embers, so it's up to you.
    But I can aswell let my points as they are, and fill my sockets with focus gems, right?
    To reach my goal, there are two options then, getting dex / str points from attributes, or from sockets, and the rest will be focus. The question is, what would be more effective, and it is also based on number of socket, since I am still not 100% decided which weapon will I use.
    Geist wrote:
    4. Prismatic Bolts trigger Fire, Ice, and Lightning Brands rapidly, so you're likely seeing those crit more than the bolts themselves. I can confirm that on a 100% critical character, PB does not always crit.
    5. That's what I said.
    6. Ditto.
    That means..."yes" I guess
    Geist wrote:
    7. I answered pretty straightforwardly. What part are you still stuck on?
    Just a straight answer, like yes, or not. DPS and magic damage are not important numbers for me with my skillset, and I should ignore them, and focus on slots and weapon bonuses, yes?

    In additional to question 8, does even something like dual wielding bonus afect me, if I don't use DPS? Does dual wielding scroll change my skill damage, or it will apply only on DPS based attacks?
  • GeistGeist Posts: 128
    URIELX wrote:
    To be honest, if it would be possible, I would always want to get straignt answer, like yes, or no, I am just trying to understand that all, but thanks anyway, it exaplained me a lot.
    I've given straight answers. I did elaborate on some points just to preemptively answer future questions.
    But I can aswell let my points as they are, and fill my sockets with focus gems, right?
    To reach my goal, there are two options then, getting dex / str points from attributes, or from sockets, and the rest will be focus. The question is, what would be more effective, and it is also based on number of socket, since I am still not 100% decided which weapon will I use.
    You could, but armor sockets are very valuable for damage reduction and HP, which you can't really get anywhere else. As an example, it would take 150 points of STR to equal the crit damage bonus of a single Rambren skull. Socketing one Rambren in a weapon costs you 6% cast speed, but effectively profits you 150 FOC.
    That means..."yes" I guess
    Yes.
    Just a straight answer, like yes, or not. DPS and magic damage are not important numbers for me with my skillset, and I should ignore them, and focus on slots and weapon bonuses, yes?
    Yes, I've been saying that all along.
    In additional to question 8, does even something like dual wielding bonus afect me, if I don't use DPS? Does dual wielding scroll change my skill damage, or it will apply only on DPS based attacks?
    No, dual wielding bonus will only apply to weapon DPS.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    Ok, so the most suitable option would be probably that mentioned combination of two Netherrealm wands, right?

    Which brings me to a question. Is there a real use for staffs in this game? I mean, with staff, you can have max 5 slots, and you can't even have a shield, just that staff. And it has even only meele attack as a default attack, compared to wands, there are various advantages in using wands, such like dual wielding, ability to use shield, more slots or whatever else. Just that option to be able to use your second hand, at least as socket tool, I don't understand the reason, why would someone use staff. Q1: Can you explain me this please?

    Back to my wands. I have 8 slots, so, it means, 5x 10% chance critical gem.

    Q2: And the rest of the slots, what do you think would be better? Fill them with critical bonus gems, or focus gems? Additionally, is there any max value of critical bonus %? Or I can for example use 8 x +60% critical bonus gems to get insane number of critical damage? If there is no limit, I guess then that my choice should be 3x +60% critical damage then, right? Which should look like: 450% + 60% + 60% + 60% = 630%? If so, thats insane.

    Q3: By the way, I guess that any of the gems with effect "dealing xxxx damage during 5 seconds" such like Skull of Zardon, will not work with skills, am I correct?

    And now the last thing: enchants. I have been browsing enchants on the enchant wiki page, and there are the most interesting enchants I found:

    +10% Bonus to Critical Damage
    1%-2% All Damage
    X% critical hit chance (What is the max number of critical chance which can "filip the lucky" give me?)
    X Random Attribute boost

    Q4: So, which one would be the best for me?
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    Hi

    I will try to answer your questions as well as I can. Before that I really think you should read this thread about how damage works:
    viewtopic.php?f=30&t=44975

    It will tell you everything you need to know about damage and all the confusing factors that come with it. Now straight to your last questions.

    Q2: If you don't plan on using a shield then use a Netherrealm Sword and a Netherrealm Axe ( or wand with axe if you need wand for certain skills that require it) and socked them with 4x Rambren (60% critdmg) and 4x Whorlbarb (10% critdmg). the Critdmg cap is 500%. So you can't have 630% as you calculated (you will see in the link I provided). You get 50% crit dmg by default, just for being alive, and the rest of it, 450%, comes from 999 strength. 4x rambern will allow you to save up on strength and put more into focus. With 4x Rambren you will only need 525 strength to reach the cap. If you also use transcendent shoulders which have 20% crit dmg you will only need 475 strength for the 500% cap. Such high stats can be reached by enchanting your gear with Borris (this answers Q4). He is the best enchanter in the game. A critical enchant can net you 60 points of any of the four stats and he can enchant three times. That means around 180 stats per item and 1800 stats total from borris alone + 495 from leveling....you get the point.

    Of course this costs a LOT of money and if you don't have patinece borris will get you around 1000 stat points which is still VERY good. He is the best enchanter in the game. So for you if you have the patience good endgame stats with the sockets and shoulders i mentioned above would be 475 strength 1500 focus and 300 dexterity. It's very doable with borris!

    Q3: Skull of Zardon will work with skills that proc on hit effects such as: Convey dmg over time, thunder, meteor, fire storm, acid rain, glacial spike, scalding geyser. For embermage those skills are the ones listed in the Chaos Wand skill description (since it also procs all of the above effects and more). Those skills are: Magma Spear, Magma Mace, Icy Blast and Shockbolts.

    Q4: Borris Borris Borris Borris and Borris...

    for the 4th enchantment on an item use Karkozy and settle for whatver he gives you if borris has allready given you good stats

    Also on skills...with this setup, if you are using frost wave, hailstorm and thunder locus with ice and lightning brand, its really all you need so no prismatic bolt or wand chaos for bosses. Frost wave is absolutely devastating. Oh and get Ice Prison if you have no shield! That is one of the best spells the embermage has. You can protect yourself, block enemies, bosses included, or damage them by casting ice prison on a boss after hail storm debuff and after 2 seconds, cast it again. All the pillars explode doing immense damage. My embermage with a similar setup reached 3 million damage with ice prison bursts.

    Hope it helps and read the link! :)
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    Sebi wrote:
    Hi

    I will try to answer your questions as well as I can. Before that I really think you should read this thread about how damage works:
    viewtopic.php?f=30&t=44975

    It will tell you everything you need to know about damage and all the confusing factors that come with it. Now straight to your last questions.

    Q2: If you don't plan on using a shield then use a Netherrealm Sword and a Netherrealm Axe ( or wand with axe if you need wand for certain skills that require it) and socked them with 4x Rambren (60% critdmg) and 4x Whorlbarb (10% critdmg). the Critdmg cap is 500%. So you can't have 630% as you calculated (you will see in the link I provided). You get 50% crit dmg by default, just for being alive, and the rest of it, 450%, comes from 999 strength. 4x rambern will allow you to save up on strength and put more into focus. With 4x Rambren you will only need 525 strength to reach the cap. If you also use transcendent shoulders which have 20% crit dmg you will only need 475 strength for the 500% cap. Such high stats can be reached by enchanting your gear with Borris (this answers Q4). He is the best enchanter in the game. A critical enchant can net you 60 points of any of the four stats and he can enchant three times. That means around 180 stats per item and 1800 stats total from borris alone + 495 from leveling....you get the point.

    Of course this costs a LOT of money and if you don't have patinece borris will get you around 1000 stat points which is still VERY good. He is the best enchanter in the game. So for you if you have the patience good endgame stats with the sockets and shoulders i mentioned above would be 475 strength 1500 focus and 300 dexterity. It's very doable with borris!

    Q3: Skull of Zardon will work with skills that proc on hit effects such as: Convey dmg over time, thunder, meteor, fire storm, acid rain, glacial spike, scalding geyser. For embermage those skills are the ones listed in the Chaos Wand skill description (since it also procs all of the above effects and more). Those skills are: Magma Spear, Magma Mace, Icy Blast and Shockbolts.

    Q4: Borris Borris Borris Borris and Borris...

    for the 4th enchantment on an item use Karkozy and settle for whatver he gives you if borris has allready given you good stats

    Also on skills...with this setup, if you are using frost wave, hailstorm and thunder locus with ice and lightning brand, its really all you need so no prismatic bolt or wand chaos for bosses. Frost wave is absolutely devastating. Oh and get Ice Prison if you have no shield! That is one of the best spells the embermage has. You can protect yourself, block enemies, bosses included, or damage them by casting ice prison on a boss after hail storm debuff and after 2 seconds, cast it again. All the pillars explode doing immense damage. My embermage with a similar setup reached 3 million damage with ice prison bursts.

    Hope it helps and read the link! :)
    Hello and thank you a lot for this constructive post!
    I have never been thinking about using something different than wand or staff, so I would probably miss these nice bonuses which that axe and sword have. While it will look weird (magican with axe and sword :D), it looks like nice combination, and I will try to get them.

    About my skillset, I didn't found frostwave as much effective as you say. Although it is amazing spell for destroying horde of enemies, it doesn't seem to do much damage. In Tarrochs Tomb, while fightint against bosses, there isn't simply time to stay at one place and spam frostwave. I have to move, or teleport to avoid close conflict and dodge some attacks, like guided missiles, so for this situation, the only option is to use long range spells, such like hailstorm, infernall collapse and prismatic bolts. I think that especially that nuclear bomb (infernall collapse) is the most effective skill from my skillset.
    You say that I should use ice prison. I have once tried it, but bosses could easily break those ice pillars, and the whole principle of prison wasn't really effective. I might try it again, but I never trusted this spell.

    It looks that I will have to rework few things on my load out after all, but no problem. It will take some time to obtain items and enchants, but I am satisfied :)
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    Glad it helped. Infernal collapse is great too and I love it. With this setup and stats it can go over 1 million damage after firestorm debuff. I have one such build. Both frost wave and infernal collapse need high stats to shine. After you use Borris for your equippment try them both again and see what you like the most. Frost wave is a bit too overpowered i think ( for bosses if you stand closer to them and shoot them they just evaporate, while using ice prison and Frost Pahse to maneuver around them :) ), you will see.

    Infernal collapse has style. I do not know what difficulty level you are playing on but if you play (or will play) on elite then Ice Prison and Deaths bounty are must have skills. You will get used to them, they are amazing.

    Oh and another thing, whatever your build is, fire and release spells or shoot standing in one place (both frost wave and prism bolt do that btw :) ), get lots of cast speed for fluid gameplay and survivability. Best items are: Transcendent icon amulet (15% cast speed), Ascendant Pants (9% cast speed) , 6 piece Trascendent set (15% cast speed, just get 4 more items besides amulet and pants but not the transcendent rings), 2x aristocrat rings (6% cast speed from set bonus) and if you find them with stats on them then be happy because they are rare. This will give you a total of +45% cast speed which is very reasonable.

    I also use Centerwing shield with 15% cast speed giving me 60% cast speed better survivability and in return i let go of the 4x Whorlbarb. You might be tempted to do this on elite if not just use the above with ice prison ( remember that you can also walk trough the pillars) and deaths bounty as your defense and you will be fine.

    Cheers
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    Playing on Elite (I don't know why, but even now it sometimes doesn't feel like the highest difficult), and I am currently at NG++. Vanilla game, without mods, cheats. The only **** moments are in Tarroch's Tomb. That is in my opinion true challange. And my goal is to run it one time, and do it like a boss :D I have already finished it three times, but it costed me a lot of deaths xD
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    For a good challenge download this https://www.mediafire.com/folder/iv2qoo ... ARTARUS_V5

    It's basically mapworks dungeons with lvl 150+ monsters. They increase in level every two dugeons and it is also full of bosses and champions. To me this is the final test for a Vanilla character. And it's also lots of fun.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    I think I am going to try it after I test my gear in Tarrochs tomb one more time :D
    One more question about my gear. I have seen that some people use "Alchemists rings". Do you think that replacing my Transcendent rings with alchemists rings would worth enough, even I would sacrifice the +20% to all damage bonus?
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    edited April 2015
    Ok so, as I said two posts above, you should only have 6 pieces transcendent set to get to the 15% cast bonus. The rings are useless. You can be creative with the rest of the gear. 2x aristocrat gives bonuses and stats if you find them with stats. Alchemist rings do not drop ligitimately. It's a bug. You need a mod for it to drop or to console them. For helm and gloves I would use the Asphyx set. each item has 5 sockets!!! That is the best way to get skulls of Limoany and Reichliu and leaves room for more Wfuntir skulls (+ 62 focus ;) ). Just put a Skull of X'n!troph in them to cancel the life damage per second it grants. The set also gives 30% increased charge rate so with this and high damage from your spells you will no longer need charge mastery, leaving room for more creativity in your skills.

    The rings, helm and gloves from the Transcendent and Ascendant are pretty much useless and the set bonuses after 6 pieces are very bad.
    20% to all damage = 40 focus...meh :| ....think of all those Wfuntirs you will get with Asphyx set since it is so easy to get 75% damage resist with it and huge health leaving you with extra sockets.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    DIdn't notice that part of the post, sorry :D
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    One more question about damage reduction skulls. I assume that there is also the cap for damage reduction, as you said concrete number (75%), thats 15 slots used for damage reduction, right? And there is no point of adding more damage reduction skulls, because it will not have any effect, correct?
    What would be the best ratio for gems then? I have 26 armour slots now - 15 damage reduction skulls, thats 11 free slots. Lets say that I will use two skulls for 103 health recovery per second, and 4 slots for 1540 Health, and the rest for focus skulls, is it fine? Or you would suggest better combination?
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    URIELX wrote:
    One more question about damage reduction skulls. I assume that there is also the cap for damage reduction, as you said concrete number (75%), thats 15 slots used for damage reduction, right? And there is no point of adding more damage reduction skulls, because it will not have any effect, correct?
    What would be the best ratio for gems then? I have 26 armour slots now - 15 damage reduction skulls, thats 11 free slots. Lets say that I will use two skulls for 103 health recovery per second, and 4 slots for 1540 Health, and the rest for focus skulls, is it fine? Or you would suggest better combination?


    I will tell you how i did it. You don't need 15 skulls for damage reduction to get to 75% dmg reduction. Only 10 skulls.

    1.First and most important the Immolation Aura skill. I hope you took this one because it is essential in every build. Just drop charge Mastery and get this right away. At tier III it gives 15% Damage resist!!! You don't take it for the damage but for damage resist which your embermage really needs.

    2. From equippment. The Ascendant boots give 5% Damage resist. Best boots, lvl 105 too so great enghants from borris ;). Then Transcendent manle. This also gives 5% Damage resist and also the important 20% crit dmg i've mentioned. Best shoulders:)

    - So 15% immolation aura +10% from Equippment= 25% Damge Resist
    You will only need 10 resist skulls to get the rest of the 50%

    - You only need one skull for 103 health recovery per second

    - I would put 9x riechliu with 1540 health to get to just over 20k health (this is for Tartarus dungeons i directed you too)

    - In the remaining 6 slots put Wfuntir skulls!

    If you had a shield you could put less Riechliu like 7 of them and 8 Wfuntir but for you, what is wrote above is a great setup
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    edited April 2015
    Sebi wrote:
    URIELX wrote:
    One more question about damage reduction skulls. I assume that there is also the cap for damage reduction, as you said concrete number (75%), thats 15 slots used for damage reduction, right? And there is no point of adding more damage reduction skulls, because it will not have any effect, correct?
    What would be the best ratio for gems then? I have 26 armour slots now - 15 damage reduction skulls, thats 11 free slots. Lets say that I will use two skulls for 103 health recovery per second, and 4 slots for 1540 Health, and the rest for focus skulls, is it fine? Or you would suggest better combination?


    I will tell you how i did it. You don't need 15 skulls for damage reduction to get to 75% dmg reduction. Only 10 skulls.

    1.First and most important the Immolation Aura skill. I hope you took this one because it is essential in every build. Just drop charge Mastery and get this right away. At tier III it gives 15% Damage resist!!! You don't take it for the damage but for damage resist which your embermage really needs.

    2. From equippment. The Ascendant boots give 5% Damage resist. Best boots, lvl 105 too so great enghants from borris ;). Then Transcendent manle. This also gives 5% Damage resist and also the important 20% crit dmg i've mentioned. Best shoulders:)

    - So 15% immolation aura +10% from Equippment= 25% Damge Resist
    You will only need 10 resist skulls to get the rest of the 50%

    - You only need one skull for 103 health recovery per second

    - I would put 9x riechliu with 1540 health to get to just over 20k health (this is for Tartarus dungeons i directed you too)

    - In the remaining 6 slots put Wfuntir skulls!

    If you had a shield you could put less Riechliu like 7 of them and 8 Wfuntir but for you, what is wrote above is a great setup

    I have already my experience with Immolation Aura, and I decided to not use it. The reason is easy, it requires pushing button every one minute to keep that +15% damage reduction effecf. And thats the problem. When I am in Tarroch's Tomb, I usually focus my attention on moving around the room, dodging attacks, aiming Infernall Collapse and other long range spells, and watching my health + constantly feeding my stupid pet with mana / health potions, since my pet is absolutely dumb. In this case, I ALWAYS forget to use this spell. If this spell was passive, or fully automatic (it would require using some macro on my mouse / keyboard), it would be fine, but at this curent state, I lost my patient with this spell. So I would rather spend 3 more slots for reduction gems than use this spell, since it is guaranteed permanent protection.
    Especially in the last stage in Tarroch's Tomb, when there is wave after wave, boss after boss, I really don't have enough time to push button every minute at least one time.Two last bosses (that monster with electric homing missiles and that super huge mecha) will not give any time to relax and check status of all things. I don't know what are your experiences, but I simply can not stay at one place longer than one second. I also need to keep visual contact with them to watch, what attack are they using, since I have been killed many times by that mecha, just because he was out of my visual range, and he used that rush attack, and I couldn't react fast. Also there is a very annoying bug (or feature?) in animation. Some spells require very long cast animation, and during that animation, I can not teleport away, even I would like to. I also died many times just because of that.

    About the health, it is really necessary to have 9 health skulls? I mean, since I have 75% damage reduction, it shouldn't be problem to get some hit, use health potion and survive, or not?
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    I know what you mean. To deal with this problem a lot of people (including myself) use this: http://www.runicgamesfansite.com/vbdown ... loadid=549

    It increases the duration of immolation to 5 minutes and also others like ice shield from berserker which has only 10 secs duration (now THAT is really annoying).

    Seriously, use it. It's not worth losing three slots :)
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    Umm, I would like to use vanilla game, without any mods. Even it was just visual mod for better look, I don't want to use it. Maybe later, when I finish my character, or when I get bored.
    By the way, I have steam version of Torchlight, and I don't know, if using some mods by downloading them just from pages wouldn't be more complicated, since steam has its own workshop and community mods.
  • SebiSebi Posts: 63
    I felt exactly as you did until i took my berserker to Tartarus and had to recast ice shield every 10 seconds like crazy. Anyway you can do without immolation if want:).
  • GeistGeist Posts: 128
    URIELX wrote:
    Ok, so the most suitable option would be probably that mentioned combination of two Netherrealm wands, right?
    If all you care about is the sockets, sure. I used a pair of netherrealm axes on my mage for the extra critical chance.
    Which brings me to a question. Is there a real use for staffs in this game?
    There are some low level staves with nice casting speed bonuses suitable for early game mages to use. I also had an Emberquake Engineer make great use of the netherrealm staff in particular.
    And the rest of the slots, what do you think would be better? Fill them with critical bonus gems, or focus gems? Additionally, is there any max value of critical bonus %?
    Only the armor sockets will be able to add FOC, not weapons. Total critical bonus is +500%. 50% base, with a cap of 400% from STR, so you will need at least one Rambren to hit the final limit. I filled one weapon with critical chance and the other weapon with critical damage. This saved me several hundred points of STR and DEX that went into FOC instead.
    By the way, I guess that any of the gems with effect "dealing xxxx damage during 5 seconds" such like Skull of Zardon, will not work with skills, am I correct?
    Covered this before, a few times.
    And now the last thing: enchants. So, which one would be the best for me?
    Enchant everything 3 times with Borris for attributes. STR and DEX as needed, but mostly FOC. You can get a fourth enchant from the grandmaster, but chances are low you'll get anything helpful to you. The best possible results would be +10% critical damage on the weapons, +3% cast speed on helm/chest/gloves, and a bit more attributes on everything else.
    About my skillset, I didn't found frostwave as much effective as you say. Although it is amazing spell for destroying horde of enemies, it doesn't seem to do much damage. In Tarrochs Tomb, while fightint against bosses, there isn't simply time to stay at one place and spam frostwave.
    It does plenty of damage when you're geared up correctly. In Tarroch's Tomb, try standing in the middle where you can see both spawn points. Drop a Thunder Locus on top of the right one and surround the left with an Ice Prison. Toss Hailstorms and Infernal Collapses as needed, and if anything approaches you, blast it with all 5 Frost Waves. It should all be dying before getting too close to you.
    About the health, it is really necessary to have 9 health skulls? I mean, since I have 75% damage reduction, it shouldn't be problem to get some hit, use health potion and survive, or not?
    Not strictly necessary, but more health gives you more breathing room. If you're going to be using Asphyx you have sockets to spare.

    I agree on the Immolation Aura. It's very inconvenient to recast every 30-58 seconds, and if you're relying on it you won't have maximum DR until level 97. It also has a slow casting animation that isn't improved by any amount of cast speed. Again the extra Asphyx sockets compensate for the additional skulls of Limoany.
  • URIELXURIELX Posts: 14
    Fine, I think that this is enough, I now know the principle of damage and the other things, and with your help, I am going to create nice gear ^^
    I will try that ice prison then. It will require some time to practice however.
    Anyway, thanks, I am going to test my new gear ^^
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