Concerning the Outlander Glaive Skills...

TanakeahTanakeah Posts: 31
edited September 2012 in TL2 General Discussions
I have been playing an Outlander since the game came out and I love the idea of the class as well as all of the Glaive skills that you can pick from...lots of variety and each one feels uniquely different than the others. However, there is one issue that I have with these skills that are starting to sap my enjoyment from using them. I won't beat around the bush, so let me get right to i:

Glaive skills are very confusing in terms of what they scale with - There's been a lot of discussion and questions about these on the Outalnder forum. I even made a topic about them, got a few answers, but still remain rather confused as to what the heck these skills scale with. >< I can understand that Glaive Throw is poison damage, so that isn't too hard to figure out that it benefits from Focus as well as Master of the Elements...ok, fine. However, when you take another Glaive skill - Sandstorm - you figure that given the tooltip saying it does physical damage and scales with level that it should at least be affected by Strength. BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE! No, it doesn't scale with Strength and in fact with it DOES scale with is FOCUS...a skill that does entirely physical damage is scaling with a stat that should affect elemental damage only...something is wrong here. I also tested it on a target dummy just now. With my current gear I was doing around 2,500-3,000 crits with the skill while the dummy was under the armor debuff effect from both my bow and Rapid Fire (eyeballing it). I had 10 extra stat points not assigned so I put them into Focus and set up the same exact conditions on the dummy. Now, my Sandstorm is criting for around 4,500-6,000 damage (again, eyeballing it as best I could) and this just totally baffled me. How is a skill that does nothing but physical damage scaling with putting more points into a stat that shouldn't affect it at all?

I suppose maybe because Glaive Throw, Sandstorm, and Fire Glaive are all in the Lore Tree, which focuses (no pun intended) on skills boosted by Focus that they would just come naturally to assume those skills should scale with Focus? But then it begs the question...Fire Glaive's initial hit is based off of %Weapon Damage, which IS affected by Strength while the fire DoT is affected by Focus, or why a skill like Cursed Daggers is in the Warefare Tree. That scales completely with Focus (and Master of the Elements) and yet all of the skills in the Warefare Tree (or at least most of them) are based off of Strength. This makes picking out skills very confusing and can really lead to people feeling like they screwed up in terms of not only picking out skill points, but stat points as well. I really, really like a lot of the Glaive skills, but I didn't want to have to pump a ton of Focus and instead wanted to use Strength to go more for 2-handed guns/bows along with Rapid Fire, especially since I figured Sandstorm would give me at least ONE Glaive skill to work with for clearing heavy packs, and maybe Fire Glaive for bosses. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case and for now...since I cannot reset my stat points...I am stuck with what I have decided and will just have to either reroll another Outlander and go more for Focus and Wands (which I don't want to do) or keep truckin' along and choose other skills that I am not liking as much.

With all of that said, I have one request of the devs regarding this: Could you make the tooltip a little more detailed for certain skills to show what they (or their sub-parts) scale with in terms of either Focus or Strength so they aren't as confusing for people? And I don't mean for every single tooltip as some skills are very easy to understand and know what they scale with (or don't scale with anything, depending), but for ones like the Glaive skills. And perhaps...maybe...look at the Glaive skills again and maybe reconsider what the skills should be scaling with to split them up a little? That's obviously not up to me, and just a suggestion, but at least consider giving a little more useful info in the tooltips to help people out in the future.

Comments

  • Any other Outlanders out there that feel this way, or want to chime in differing opinions are more than welcome to do so. ^_^
  • Why would a Glaive attack be affected by Strength? Strength is specifically for Weapon Damage, not for spell damage (unless it is an attack that is based off of weapon damage).
  • ghostcub wrote:
    Why would a Glaive attack be affected by Strength? Strength is specifically for Weapon Damage, not for spell damage (unless it is an attack that is based off of weapon damage).

    I understand it's for Weapon Damage, but it doesn't make sense that a skill labeled as doing nothing but PHYSICAL DAMAGE should be scaling with a stat that specifically states that it boosts MAGICAL DAMAGE. Sandstorm doesn't do any magical damage given what its tooltip says, so why is it being affected by it? Either the tooltip is wrong, or it is right and it has a very odd scaling function to it that just doesn't mesh well.
  • Tanakeah wrote:
    ghostcub wrote:
    Why would a Glaive attack be affected by Strength? Strength is specifically for Weapon Damage, not for spell damage (unless it is an attack that is based off of weapon damage).

    I understand it's for Weapon Damage, but it doesn't make sense that a skill labeled as doing nothing but PHYSICAL DAMAGE should be scaling with a stat that specifically states that it boosts MAGICAL DAMAGE. Sandstorm doesn't do any magical damage given what its tooltip says, so why is it being affected by it? Either the tooltip is wrong, or it is right and it has a very odd scaling function to it that just doesn't mesh well.


    Not all Magic Damage is Elemental, I think that's the whole point.
  • plndaplnda Posts: 54
    My glaves do around 6k dmg up to 15 k dmg per hit.
  • ghostcub wrote:
    Tanakeah wrote:
    ghostcub wrote:
    Why would a Glaive attack be affected by Strength? Strength is specifically for Weapon Damage, not for spell damage (unless it is an attack that is based off of weapon damage).

    I understand it's for Weapon Damage, but it doesn't make sense that a skill labeled as doing nothing but PHYSICAL DAMAGE should be scaling with a stat that specifically states that it boosts MAGICAL DAMAGE. Sandstorm doesn't do any magical damage given what its tooltip says, so why is it being affected by it? Either the tooltip is wrong, or it is right and it has a very odd scaling function to it that just doesn't mesh well.


    Not all Magic Damage is Elemental, I think that's the whole point.

    That seems rather odd to me. What other Magic Damage is in the game that isn't elemental damage? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious because this is the first time I've ever played a game where something labeled 'physical damage' is being affected by stats made for magic damage and not stats that are used for physical damage.
  • Tanakeah wrote:
    That seems rather odd to me. What other Magic Damage is in the game that isn't elemental damage? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious because this is the first time I've ever played a game where something labeled 'physical damage' is being affected by stats made for magic damage and not stats that are used for physical damage.

    Honestly, I don't know what else is physical magic damage in the game (I really have only played a Berserker a decent amount), but it makes sense to me. But I've been playing another game that does things where Attacks and Spells are handled like this, so it isn't unheard of.
  • ghostcub wrote:
    Tanakeah wrote:
    That seems rather odd to me. What other Magic Damage is in the game that isn't elemental damage? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious because this is the first time I've ever played a game where something labeled 'physical damage' is being affected by stats made for magic damage and not stats that are used for physical damage.

    Honestly, I don't know what else is physical magic damage in the game (I really have only played a Berserker a decent amount), but it makes sense to me. But I've been playing another game that does things where Attacks and Spells are handled like this, so it isn't unheard of.

    Interesting. What game is it that you are playing that handles Attacks and Spells like that? Sorta been out of the RPG/ARPG/MMO loop a bit, but it still seems so odd to me. Well, as I said in the post I can understand with the Glaive attacks being in the Lore tree that Focus would be the main stat, but it still seems like something is off.
  • CeruleanCerulean Posts: 13
    edited September 2012
    I don't think it's your fault that you're confused. Torchlight 2 is horribly documented (because there isn't any) so to, for example, know the differences between weapon types you sort of have to hope the loadscreen tooltip for it comes up and you have enough time to read it. I had to keep zoning just to **** find out what debuffs did to see if I should care about poisoning enemies or not. I still don't know exactly what "conveys" means because hammers definitely do not stun 90% of the time, even on crits which some suggest is when convey procs happen.

    However, since you already know STR scales WDPS spells, you should have assumed STR would not affect any skills that don't use your weapon's dps, period. The fact that a physical damage spell scales with Focus IS odd though, and since the case seems to be unique there should have probably been some kind of note on the tooltip. But hey, now we know.
  • Just think of physical as another elemental type, it's not that un-common.
  • Just think of physical as another elemental type, it's not that un-common.

    It actually is, but still force mages and the like come to mind, so it's not unheard of is what you should have said.
  • It does feel awfully odd when you have to gear up your outlander, a range DPS that traditionally depends on dexterity, with Mage-like gear.
  • Cerulean wrote:
    I don't think it's your fault that you're confused. Torchlight 2 is horribly documented (because there isn't any) so to, for example, know the differences between weapon types you sort of have to hope the loadscreen tooltip for it comes up and you have enough time to read it. I had to keep zoning just to **** find out what debuffs did to see if I should care about poisoning enemies or not. I still don't know exactly what "conveys" means because hammers definitely do not stun 90% of the time, even on crits which some suggest is when convey procs happen.

    However, since you already know STR scales WDPS spells, you should have assumed STR would not effect any skills that don't use your weapon's dps, period. The fact that a physical damage spell scales with Focus IS odd though, and since the case seems to be unique there should have probably been some kind of note on the tooltip. But hey, now we know.

    That's really the heart of the matter and also what you posted...it just feels odd and seems so out of place with feeling like you're gearing backwards a bit in terms of a ranged DPS class that is supposed to be the Ranger/Archer, though you can use wands and have some magic at your disposal. I'm not against that at all, just the clarification would've been rather nice and that's really what I was shooting for at the end of the post, because I know I'm probably not the only person that made the mistake I did. I'll roll with the punches and take my lumps for sure on this one, but this really just goes to show that some things can be a bit confusing and a little clarification in the tooltips can save people a lot of trouble of headache in the future. A simple "This skill scales with Strength/Focus" located at the bottom of the tooltip would go a long way, especially for people who may just jump into the game and don't read up on every nuance or catch everything on the load screens, etc, etc. And please understand, I'm not crying for nerfs or to dumb the game down or anything like that...just clarification. :)
  • I agree 100% with this. I am playing an outlander and have found the tooltips to be very confusing and it has cost me at least 6 points on my build. Fortunately the game is still very new, so I am hoping that either Runic patches and fixes this, or there will be some serious theorycrafting posts/sites coming.
  • Okay so for the record, focus states that it increases "elemental damage". the listed number of magic damage next to it, is your weapons magic damage, i think. So yes, this is very odd. All in all, this game has made leaps and bounds worth of improvements over the last game, but there are still some glaring issues. A game of this type, namely an ARPG, can seem very daunting at first. They are usually chock full of a myriad of features, to ensure entertainment and longevity of the game. And in that respect, TL2 has done well enough.... but... for new players (namely, everyone playing the game) the amount of features in an arpg can seem daunting. They really need to do a better job of explaining which features do what, and making their tooltips thorough, and concise. I shouldn't have to spend a half hour combing the forums for every. single. question. i have about the game, which is unfortunately the case at this point. I actually think that some sort of help menu in the game would be the idea solution to this. That way they could document EVERYTHING, and have it ordered and listed... please runic, hear our pleas



    Edit: Perhaps we should look at Path of Exile as a model for this. They arent even in open beta yet, but already on the website you can find detailed information for every single feature in the game, every skill, every item, every mechanic is well documented on their web site.

  • Edit: Perhaps we should look at Path of Exile as a model for this. They arent even in open beta yet, but already on the website you can find detailed information for every single feature in the game, every skill, every item, every mechanic is well documented on their web site.

    I think it will get there. The following sites are already useful and adding more info daily:

    http://torchlight.wikia.com/wiki/Torchlight_II
    [LINK DELETED]
  • Tanakeah wrote:
    ghostcub wrote:
    Tanakeah wrote:
    That seems rather odd to me. What other Magic Damage is in the game that isn't elemental damage? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious because this is the first time I've ever played a game where something labeled 'physical damage' is being affected by stats made for magic damage and not stats that are used for physical damage.

    Honestly, I don't know what else is physical magic damage in the game (I really have only played a Berserker a decent amount), but it makes sense to me. But I've been playing another game that does things where Attacks and Spells are handled like this, so it isn't unheard of.

    Interesting. What game is it that you are playing that handles Attacks and Spells like that? Sorta been out of the RPG/ARPG/MMO loop a bit, but it still seems so odd to me. Well, as I said in the post I can understand with the Glaive attacks being in the Lore tree that Focus would be the main stat, but it still seems like something is off.

    Path of Exile does that, Spells and Attacks are handled differently, there's spell damage, elemental damages, physical spell damage and chaos spell damage (chaos is a seperate damage type), and then attacks have all of those as well.
  • I agree 100%. There are just too many skill design ambiguities for the outlander. Chaos Burst and Shadowling Ammo confliction; most Glaives’ conflictions with aforementioned two passive skills were not stated in the tooltips either. Let’s not stop there. Shadowling Brute hidden lasting duration? Long range mastery damage not working for wand? Long range mastery has no ties to any of our skills? Venomous Hail knockback works in addition to shotgun mastery knockback? I’m just naming a few from top of my head. Too much inside hidden mechanisms not elaborated just makes people confused and beg for answers and respec.
  • Decaymoss wrote:
    It does feel awfully odd when you have to gear up your outlander, a range DPS that traditionally depends on dexterity, with Mage-like gear.
    I like that the Outlander can be played either as a caster type, ranged damage dealer type or maybe the oddball melee damage dealer type. And there are still 3 other classes to enjoy the game with. What makes a game great is keeping all this creative variety in killing / maiming / butchering / destroying / slashing / hacking somehow balanced. Is a Storm Embermage more fun than a Lore Outlander?

    Right now, while all the classes have very interesting variety in skills and playstyle, Outlander Glaive Throwers in particular are ... significantly more convenient ... than any other Outlander spec. Arguably all other specs in the game.

    It would indeed be useful if skill tooltips had a small footnote saying which stats and weapon procs worked (or didn't work). Since they don't, I don't buy Runic Games' witholding of Respec Potions or Stat Reset Potions. But I suppose that's a topic for another time.

    P.S.: Fans of Diablo II might remember Hammerdins, masters of Magic Damage. Cold / Fire / Lightning / Poison % Resistances were widely available, even those silly flat resists that made DoTs useless. Magic Resist% items didn't exist which made Hammerdins & other quirky magic dmg builds so nice.
    Boom boom pow!
  • milkflavor wrote:
    I agree 100%. There are just too many skill design ambiguities for the outlander. Chaos Burst and Shadowling Ammo confliction; most Glaives’ conflictions with aforementioned two passive skills were not stated in the tooltips either. Let’s not stop there. Shadowling Brute hidden lasting duration? Long range mastery damage not working for wand? Long range mastery has no ties to any of our skills? Venomous Hail knockback works in addition to shotgun mastery knockback? I’m just naming a few from top of my head. Too much inside hidden mechanisms not elaborated just makes people confused and beg for answers and respec.

    Generally speaking, when a DOT stacks and when it refreshes is never stated. And when/what weapon procs a weapon-based skill does is also totally opaque. I know rapid fire does some stuff, and Magma Spear does physdmg/5sec even though nothing is listed about that. Possibly a bug related to it proccing wand chaos, possibly intended, but the skill descriptions give no way of knowing.
  • keenlamkeenlam Posts: 269
    @OP: with Sandstorm skill, you need FOCUS to manipulate elemental earth (earth bending) but when the stuff hits monsters, it's physical damage (abrasion maybe???). That's my thinking goes.
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