Respec without being flagged

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Comments

  • plndaplnda Posts: 54
    Zepheyr wrote:
    Flagging let's people know that you've cheated. If they don't want to play with you, they have the option to block you. But you remove this option by lying about the fact that you've cheated.

    Basically, it you want to cheat, without the social rejection that cheating entails.

    If this truly is a game that is designed to be played how you want, then it's hypocritical to remove the console from multiplayer. After all, we keep getting told that if you don't want to play with cheaters you can block them. So why this doesn't apply? Why does the console have to be removed from multiplayer when we keep getting told that to get a closed server like environment, you should just block cheaters? And now you're adding to that hypocrisy by advocating a way for cheaters to bypass the flag.

    There are people who don't want to play with cheaters who respec. It's dishonest for you to not be up front about having done it, you're lying to those people who would otherwise not want to play with you.

    The clear difference here is that the console was removed from multiplayer because people could (and did) use it to kill your character, which directly inhibits your ability to enjoy the game. That is contrary to what the developers want, so it was removed.

    A person respeccing their character however, is not ruining your gameplay experience in any way.
    Playing with cheaters who respec or transfer the best gear to their character is ruining my gameplay experience. It makes the game easy. What if I don't want to play with these people? And what if I don't care, I want to block them regardless? This is a game designed to be played with who you want, right?

    If you're so scared of being grief by people who use the console, you should play with your friends. The same way you should play with friends if you want a cheat free environment. Stay away from strangers on the internet. Stranger danger.

    But why ruin the fun of the console users, who are playing the game THEY want to. They're feelings count too. If you don't like them , block them or play with friends.

    Cheating without using the console is easy nonetheless, so removing the console in mp is not going to fix anything..
  • I'm kind of on both sides of the fence here. I don't really think respeccing is cheating and for those of you calling those people cheaters and lumping them in with the same people who spawned bosses on top of other players **** characters is deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

    That said though I do think that using any console spawned items should flag the character using it, whether it's respec pots or weapons and armor, because of the simple reason that yes, there are going to be people who want to play vanilla, and they may not want to play with people who aren't playing a vanilla character, and they are in the right to know whether or not you are. This is why once GUTS is made available, multiplayer games are going to list which mods a person is using so you know which mods you need to either play with them, or to avoid those games. It's not a matter of whether or not respec pots is considered cheating or not(that's purely subjective), it's the fore-knowledge of playing the game how a person considers fun with like-minded people.

    As to my personal opinion on respeccing right now, keep it to single-player games. You can always use the knowledge you glean on your multiplayer characters without having to worry about the flags.
    Hooray. Someone understood what people have been trying to say since the Beta.

    It's not about using respecs and being labelled a cheater, it's about wanting to know if your playmate has used the console to get unfair help (unfair being: using the easiest build to level, then switching over) and not wanting to play with such a character since it isn't built from scratch.
  • tonnesti wrote:
    I'm kind of on both sides of the fence here. I don't really think respeccing is cheating and for those of you calling those people cheaters and lumping them in with the same people who spawned bosses on top of other players **** characters is deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

    That said though I do think that using any console spawned items should flag the character using it, whether it's respec pots or weapons and armor, because of the simple reason that yes, there are going to be people who want to play vanilla, and they may not want to play with people who aren't playing a vanilla character, and they are in the right to know whether or not you are. This is why once GUTS is made available, multiplayer games are going to list which mods a person is using so you know which mods you need to either play with them, or to avoid those games. It's not a matter of whether or not respec pots is considered cheating or not(that's purely subjective), it's the fore-knowledge of playing the game how a person considers fun with like-minded people.

    As to my personal opinion on respeccing right now, keep it to single-player games. You can always use the knowledge you glean on your multiplayer characters without having to worry about the flags.
    Hooray. Someone understood what people have been trying to say since the Beta.

    It's not about using respecs and being labelled a cheater, it's about wanting to know if your playmate has used the console to get unfair help (unfair being: using the easiest build to level, then switching over) and not wanting to play with such a character since it isn't built from scratch.

    In a sense, yes, but the game is still new and as time goes on, the "from scratch" builds will disappear...until modders make new classes :P.

    Edit: Also, Hey Max, I see ya lurkin' ;).
  • According to that thread, if you drink the respec potion at level 100, you get 133 skill points, when normally you have 132. I would consider that cheating.
  • I thought there was a legal way to respec... just start a new character at level 1. I don't get what all the fuss is about.
  • timortis wrote:
    According to that thread, if you drink the respec potion at level 100, you get 133 skill points, when normally you have 132. I would consider that cheating.

    I may be off, but at level 100, shouldn't you have 150 skill points? Unless there's some off chance you aren't maxxed fame too?
  • VageVage Posts: 3
    edited September 2012
    I may be off, but at level 100, shouldn't you have 150 skill points? Unless there's some off chance you aren't maxxed fame too?

    nope there are 33 fame lvls not 50
  • ZepheyrZepheyr Posts: 345
    Belandrew wrote:
    Even if you can't respec via potion without being flagged, what is to stop a console user from spawning a bunch of the best equipment and high-value items for selling and putting them in the shared stash? Every spawned item would need to be tagged so that any character touching them would be immediately flagged.

    From what I've read (not tried firsthand) flagged chars cannot access the shared stash so they couldn't put anything in it.


    Whoever told you that is trying to scare you. Nothing is going to happen to your shared stash.
  • timortis wrote:
    According to that thread, if you drink the respec potion at level 100, you get 133 skill points, when normally you have 132. I would consider that cheating.
    I've read some there that: max points = 99 + max fame = 33, and +1 from start, so you get 133.
  • Even if you get flagged you can remove it the flag by hex-editing the file
  • Vage wrote:
    I may be off, but at level 100, shouldn't you have 150 skill points? Unless there's some off chance you aren't maxxed fame too?

    nope there are 33 fame lvls not 50

    Ahh, my mistake then, but still that accounts for 133 points instead of 132. You may be forgetting the initial point that's spent on your first skill(like molten hammer for engineer) but that can be respecced if you don't spend any points untill you get to the enclave and talk to the respeccer.
  • ZepheyrZepheyr Posts: 345
    Vage wrote:
    I may be off, but at level 100, shouldn't you have 150 skill points? Unless there's some off chance you aren't maxxed fame too?

    nope there are 33 fame lvls not 50

    Ahh, my mistake then, but still that accounts for 133 points instead of 132. You may be forgetting the initial point that's spent on your first skill(like molten hammer for engineer) but that can be respecced if you don't spend any points untill you get to the enclave and talk to the respeccer.

    Supposedly the last fame level yields no point. It's literally called "Unattainable."
  • FarnhamFarnham Posts: 564
    Sheytan wrote:
    Even if you get flagged you can remove it the flag by hex-editing the file

    public games are useless for those who want to play vanilla with other vanillas because the flag system is useless

    and password locking our game means we cant meet other legit vanillas

    maybe this game isn't for me, cuz it really kills the drive to play, which really **** because the actual game is good

    i had fun using hero editor on d2, but only for like a week, it got really boring after that, there was no incentive to keep playing, i just felt like i was going through the motions, and im getting that same feeling again with tl2

    i dont have a problem with people cheating and playing with other cheaters, but when they are able to hide the cheating and i dont know who to block, it ruins everything for me
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  • Farnham wrote:
    Sheytan wrote:
    Even if you get flagged you can remove it the flag by hex-editing the file

    public games are useless for those who want to play vanilla with other vanillas because the flag system is useless

    and password locking our game means we cant meet other legit vanillas

    maybe this game isn't for me, cuz it really kills the drive to play, which really **** because the actual game is good

    i had fun using hero editor on d2, but only for like a week, it got really boring after that, there was no incentive to keep playing, i just felt like i was going through the motions, and im getting that same feeling again with tl2

    i dont have a problem with people cheating and playing with other cheaters, but when they are able to hide the cheating and i dont know who to block, it ruins everything for me


    This is honestly going to be a non-issue once the mod tools release. You'll need to have the same mods or lack there-of to join the same games as others, and it has been stated before release that the lobby will list the mods the creator of the game has(or none if they aren't using any). The people who want to respec will then for the most part be using the mod for it instead of console commands, and after that anyone else can be weeded out with blocking.
  • Farnham wrote:
    Sheytan wrote:
    Even if you get flagged you can remove it the flag by hex-editing the file

    public games are useless for those who want to play vanilla with other vanillas because the flag system is useless

    and password locking our game means we cant meet other legit vanillas

    maybe this game isn't for me, cuz it really kills the drive to play, which really **** because the actual game is good

    i had fun using hero editor on d2, but only for like a week, it got really boring after that, there was no incentive to keep playing, i just felt like i was going through the motions, and im getting that same feeling again with tl2

    i dont have a problem with people cheating and playing with other cheaters, but when they are able to hide the cheating and i dont know who to block, it ruins everything for me


    This is honestly going to be a non-issue once the mod tools release. You'll need to have the same mods or lack there-of to join the same games as others, and it has been stated before release that the lobby will list the mods the creator of the game has(or none if they aren't using any). The people who want to respec will then for the most part be using the mod for it instead of console commands, and after that anyone else can be weeded out with blocking.
    Besides, you could always join a guild specifically for vanilla play. Or create your own with your own rules.
  • Farnham wrote:
    Zepheyr wrote:
    Use the console with a character to generate respec potions. Trade them to you current character through the shared stash.
    GameFAQs has more on console commands. I don't know the one to generate the potion though.

    There is a respec person in town that respecs that last three points spent.

    I have done this with a console mule and had several characters drink respec potions. None of the drinkers were flagged, and I've had no problems with the shared stash. My wife has done the same thing and had no issue. As far as I can tell it's completely safe.

    flag system is useless then

    I disagree. How is respeccing cheating? I could just as easily create another character of said class, I would just be saving myself time.
    If it were my forums, anyone who used the word "fanboy" would be insta-banned.
  • I disagree. How is respeccing cheating? I could just as easily create another character of said class, I would just be saving myself time.
    "Attitudes towards cheating vary. On one hand, cheating allows casual players to complete games at much-accelerated speed, and this is especially helpful nowadays as typical Role Playing Games (RPGs) can take well over ten hours to finish." <-- Wikipedia.

    Since people against re-specializations are being called "elitist snobs" because they don't like playing with people who can't use the in-game three-points-only mechanic, let's call all the people doing console re-specialisations for "lazy casuals who can't play correctly"? :D
  • Vage wrote:
    I may be off, but at level 100, shouldn't you have 150 skill points? Unless there's some off chance you aren't maxxed fame too?

    nope there are 33 fame lvls not 50

    Ahh, my mistake then, but still that accounts for 133 points instead of 132. You may be forgetting the initial point that's spent on your first skill(like molten hammer for engineer) but that can be respecced if you don't spend any points untill you get to the enclave and talk to the respeccer.

    33 fame levels includes the 1st level you start with, unrecognized, you don't get a free skill for the 1st fame level, so it should be 132.

    I was pointing out what someone said in that thread. He said he was level 100 with demigod fame level, he had 132 skill points, drank the potion and had 133. He gained an extra point from the potion.
  • plndaplnda Posts: 54
    Well not that im using any cheats of sorts, i do know ways to get unlimited stat points so you could respec your character. i could make a guide if some guys really really want it ( without being flagged )
  • Wow, people who are getting **** hurt about other players respeccing is just, well, dumb. First, no it does nothing to your game play. Nothing. There is no argument you can give to that, not even saying "oh but you get optimal steamroll build when you want... blah blah blah", no. Don't even bother, your point there is completely null and void.

    Second, the game does a very crappy job of locking characters into builds that don't work as you would think. Just look at all the threads about weapon damage calculations and elemental damage. Do you really think most outlanders would of thought to roll with focus and a wand? No.

    And, ya, if you really think respeccing is a horrible offense that needs to be degraded as cheating, you need a reality check. You are obviously wound up too hard, and you don't really have the ability to comprehend what a real cheat even is.

    So please, just stop trtying to act high and mighty, like you make the rules on what is cheating, because you don't. Obviously it's not being flagged because runic didn't intend to have it be flagged. That simple. Get over it.
  • Wow, people who are getting **** hurt about other players respeccing is just, well, dumb. First, no it does nothing to your game play. Nothing.

    Yeah, after reading though this topic, all I have to say is pretty much this. People definitely have different opinions on things though, at the end of the day, I guess. I mean, personally, I don't want to play with someone who is spawning themselves the best gear in the game through mods and whatnot. But I'd have absolutely no issues playing with someone who just wants to re-spec their character.

    I think part of the issue here is that A LOT, if not ALL of the people who want to re-spec without being flagged just simply want to save themselves time and not be punished for it. It has nothing to do with "using the best farming build and switching to a fun build whenever they want". It is ABSURDLY time-consuming to have to create and level up a new character every single time you want to try out a new build. Its completely ridiculous, honestly, how much time you would spend making a new character for every new build idea. I don't like to be judgmental and make generalizations, but it seems that a lot of people just can't grasp this concept.

    How people's game experiences are "ruined" simply by others attempting to save their time is 100% beyond me. I just don't get it. But, again, as I said in the beginning of my post, people have different opinions on different things. : /
  • HomicideHomicide Posts: 1,071
    Wow, people who are getting **** hurt about other players respeccing is just, well, dumb. First, no it does nothing to your game play. Nothing.

    Yeah, after reading though this topic, all I have to say is pretty much this. People definitely have different opinions on things though, at the end of the day, I guess. I mean, personally, I don't want to play with someone who is spawning themselves the best gear in the game through mods and whatnot. But I'd have absolutely no issues playing with someone who just wants to re-spec their character.

    I think part of the issue here is that A LOT, if not ALL of the people who want to re-spec without being flagged just simply want to save themselves time and not be punished for it. It has nothing to do with "using the best farming build and switching to a fun build whenever they want". It is ABSURDLY time-consuming to have to create and level up a new character every single time you want to try out a new build. Its completely ridiculous, honestly, how much time you would spend making a new character for every new build idea. I don't like to be judgmental and make generalizations, but it seems that a lot of people just can't grasp this concept.

    How people's game experiences are "ruined" simply by others attempting to save their time is 100% beyond me. I just don't get it. But, again, as I said in the beginning of my post, people have different opinions on different things. : /


    This is about it 100%. Good job.
    ...but when we stop acting civil and start calling people names, we're no longer interacting in the spirit of Runic Games.

    Zepheyr ~ 2012
  • It has been said many times, but you people seem to miss the point every time.

    It's not about being flagged as a cheater. I doubt people give a hoot if you spawned a respec potion through the console. What they do want though, and which I can understand, is a PURE character. 100% natural. No console commands used. They want to play with characters that have not been modified by the usage of console commands, items or respecs.
  • ZiddersZidders Posts: 14,360 ✭✭✭
    asamof wrote:

    kinda amazed that runic would divide the entire community like this. there are literally players who refuse to play with people that use respec potions. not sure why respecs has to devalue their playing preference so much, it's a very elitist attitude

    ..since when is it Runics fault when people judge others based upon their actions in a videogame?

    For crying out loud, people. Some of you make it sound like being a cheater and using hacks for any purpose, even if it's just for your own game, makes you as bad as pedophiles and axe murderers.

    I cheat. I've used the respec potion, I've duped items, i've used the console to give myself tons of items on my mule character and then given it to my main non-cheat labeled character. I play in friends games with my non-legit duped item carrying character...and they don't care! You know why? Because it's totally possible for someone to be using a hacked character in a manner that in no way detracts from other peoples gameplay.

    I'm not killing everything in site, i'm not stealing their items (you cant! everyone gets their own!) and I am in no way taking away from their accomplishments by cheating my way to the end of the game. I don't get it. I don't get how knowing other people cheat at the game takes anything away from the fact that you played your game legit and got to the end legit. If anything, it makes it more impressive, not less.

    This is like when people talk about gay marriage somehow demeaning the value of their own marriage. It's just as silly a conversation. I have to deal with attitudes like this all the time as a gay person, and now I have to deal with it in game. People have this impression that cheating/hacking is a black and white issue. If you cheat, you're a bad evil person and it means you eat barbequed babies for breakfast, and people who don't cheat are all saints.

    I've played with lots of really awesome people who just happen to cheat/hack their games now and then and i've run into people who were obsessed with playing legit who were complete ****. I just don't get why people don't realize that it's all fine and good to cheat as long as you're not purposefully affecting other peoples games (like griefing) and that it's perfectly fine to play legit as long as you're not trying to say that playing legit makes you a better person than people who cheat and that people who cheat/hack, no matter what the reason might be, are scum.

    I mean, really. It's not Runics job to make sure you end up playing with people who play their games in a way that meets your approval. Go find a guild to be part of, or tell people the kind of people you're interested in playing with and then hook up with the players who respond. Stop being lazy and stop expecting a game that was clearly designed with freedom in mind to provide you with any kind of 'security' because the fact is, nothing in this life will ever provide you with true security. Ever. Only the illusion of it.

    You know, maybe this is a good thing though. I mean, I know I don't want to play with the kind of person who would judge me based on the way I play a game rather than getting to know me first. Those people are clearly ****...at least, I could easily think that about them if I only went by their opinion on one particular subject.
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  • I do think that if you play with someone who has duped himself the best items and is equipped top notch, that it DOES take away from my fun. That guy does more damage when he should, and all I can do then is run along and pick up the loot. Or just quit. That is why many people don't want to play with those guys.

    Me personally, I am fine with respeccing, that is why I rather had a different marking for those characters than those with duped items.
    What I am absolutely not fine with is that people can get away with not being flagged when they use another char to dupe the items and then giving it to their main char.
    That is why I am not playing with randoms. Either with friends, or alone. Which is a bit of a shame.

    I think we should agree on calling the (!) exclamation mark on the characters "non vanilla" mark or something like that, instead of cheater mark.
  • lubarlubar Posts: 29
    i have a question to the people who are strictly against respeccing, suppose a patch arrived that completly changed a certain spell/skill which reduced my damage/survivability alot, would you still claim that reseting the skills would be improper?
    It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.
  • FarnhamFarnham Posts: 564
    im not against "cheating", or "cheaters", i do not use those words as an attack on the person who is using the "cheats", i dont think im an **** for labeling it "cheating" either, its just lack of a better word i guess, i understand lumping respecing into the group with duping and other more altering aspects may not be the fairest wording either. i have nothing against people who want to enjoy the game the way they want to, as long as they do not force those wants on me or other people who do not want it especially in sneaky ways like removing the flag. i just want the choice not to play with characters that aren't playing vanilla. its my personal opinion that vanilla is more fun, i understand that fun is subjective, and therefore understand why people do not find my vanilla only stance fun for them.

    im a 12 year d2 vet, and when you mess up your character you just make a new one, leveling up was made pretty easy in d2, with things like the cow level leveling, and uber tristram leveling. i get a lot of enjoyment from having to create a new character to change your build completely. jay wilson added respecing to d2 and got rid of the leveling methods which ruined the fun i was having in d2 for about 10 years (i believe d2s respec was added in 2010)

    again im not "strictly against respecing" but i am against me being forced to play with people who want those types of shortcuts, and i am against hiding the fact you've altered the vanilla version im trying to enjoy.

    i do not care at all for guilds, ive had bad experiences with them, i avoid them now, but am i against guilds or other people enjoying guilds? no. i support guild support, i support cheating support, but i do not support being forced to play with people who aren't on an even playing field

    when people say it doesn't affect my gameplay at all, i disagree, in my model of fun (again its subjective so dont tell me i dont find it fun because you dont find it fun) if someone else has shortcuts then i feel it devalues what im doing, i feel it forces me to take the same shortcuts so i dont get left behind. someone can just respec on a whim so they can have leveling specs, endgame specs, dueling specs, etc, that leaves me way farther behind the curve.

    again, im not trying to personally attack anyone who is respecing by calling it "cheating"
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  • ZepheyrZepheyr Posts: 345
    Farnham wrote:
    ... but i do not support being forced to play with people who aren't on an even playing field

    when people say it doesn't affect my gameplay at all, i disagree, in my model of fun (again its subjective so dont tell me i dont find it fun because you dont find it fun) if someone else has shortcuts then i feel it devalues what im doing, i feel it forces me to take the same shortcuts so i dont get left behind. someone can just respec on a whim so they can have leveling specs, endgame specs, dueling specs, etc, that leaves me way farther behind the curve.

    But this is not a competitive game Farnham. There is no ladder, no global rankings, no competitive system designed to pit player against player, no scoreboards at the end of the game for you to compare your stats with someone else. There is nothing. So why exactly do you feel you're competing against all these strangers? Why do you speak as if you're in competition with these people? Aren't you all working together to smash stuff? I just don't understand your thought process on this because no one is competing against anyone else in Torchlight 2. This just isn't that kind of game.
  • FarnhamFarnham Posts: 564
    Zepheyr wrote:
    Farnham wrote:
    ... but i do not support being forced to play with people who aren't on an even playing field

    when people say it doesn't affect my gameplay at all, i disagree, in my model of fun (again its subjective so dont tell me i dont find it fun because you dont find it fun) if someone else has shortcuts then i feel it devalues what im doing, i feel it forces me to take the same shortcuts so i dont get left behind. someone can just respec on a whim so they can have leveling specs, endgame specs, dueling specs, etc, that leaves me way farther behind the curve.

    But this is not a competitive game Farnham. There is no ladder, no global rankings, no competitive system designed to pit player against player, no scoreboards at the end of the game for you to compare your stats with someone else. There is nothing. So why exactly do you feel you're competing against all these strangers? Why do you speak as if you're in competition with these people? Aren't you all working together to smash stuff? No one is competing against anyone here. This just isn't that kind of game.

    im not saying its a competition, i just want a vanilla gaming experience, isn't that what the block and flag system is for in the first place?

    edit: and i do enjoy dueling which technically by nature is competitive, but that gets totally ruined for me when i am forced to play with people who are hiding their cheats/shortcuts what ever they may be
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  • ZepheyrZepheyr Posts: 345
    Farnham wrote:
    Zepheyr wrote:
    Farnham wrote:
    ... but i do not support being forced to play with people who aren't on an even playing field

    when people say it doesn't affect my gameplay at all, i disagree, in my model of fun (again its subjective so dont tell me i dont find it fun because you dont find it fun) if someone else has shortcuts then i feel it devalues what im doing, i feel it forces me to take the same shortcuts so i dont get left behind. someone can just respec on a whim so they can have leveling specs, endgame specs, dueling specs, etc, that leaves me way farther behind the curve.

    But this is not a competitive game Farnham. There is no ladder, no global rankings, no competitive system designed to pit player against player, no scoreboards at the end of the game for you to compare your stats with someone else. There is nothing. So why exactly do you feel you're competing against all these strangers? Why do you speak as if you're in competition with these people? Aren't you all working together to smash stuff? No one is competing against anyone here. This just isn't that kind of game.

    im not saying its a competition, i just want a vanilla gaming experience, isn't that what the block and flag system is for in the first place?

    Ah, I misunderstood then. From the way you described your reasoning and using phrases like "even playing field," "so i don't get left behind," and "leaves me way farther behind the curve," it sounded as if you felt you needed to keep up with people for some reason. That to me seemed like competitive spirit.

    Edit: Which isn't a bad thing (competitive spirit.) I just don't know if this is really the game to have it, except in PVP as you mentioned. But PvE when there is no real incentive to compete with one another, but to work together? I just don't find playing with console users all that bad in that case.
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