What would you like to see in a new melee class?

[thisbarb]

Given your experiences with the Destroyer:

1. What skills would you like to see in a new melee class?
2. What skills do you like from the Destroyer that you find is rather necessary to a new melee class (Spectral Echo is hot)?
3. What sort of meta-game do you enjoy (being purely offensive and destroying everything the first time around, being a tanker/meat shield, etc)?

[AnalogKid]

1) I know it's cliche, but "leap" was what made barbs playable for me. "dash" (don't remember actual name) is close, but can't span gaps, nor get over big bosses at times...

2) Even stock, I don't think any 1 skill (even SE) is "must have".

What I'd love is skills that don't require so much spamming. If I want to spam I'll play a summoner or spellcaster. Make the buffs "reserve" huge permanent chunks of available mana, adding strategy about "+mana items for more simultaneous buffs, or more normal type gear?" rather than just "spam buffs, spam mana pots, attack twice, start spam sequence again", like it is now. I want to concentrate on the beating, not the buffing.

3) I prefer a balls-out "freeedommmmmm..." approach, myself. Winning the arms race and keeping the magic 1-hit kill for as long as possible is my favorite part. Especially since it requires a different approach vs. bosses, which makes the gameplay more varied.

In a more general light, I'd like to see a real tradeoff between dual-wield, sword 'n board, and 2-handers. It would be nice if more skills used attack speed, not cast speed, and also if more skills took advantage of leech. As it is, most skills depend on DPS, so every approach gets you to the same spot, or else there's one clear "best" approach, rather than a speed/strength tradeoff.

Something like a cast skill that inherits your normal weapon attack speed, for example. "Devastating" with dual daggers, could be ultra fast, but with almost no range so you have to go right through the group of mobs. "Devastating" with a polearm might spaces out the attacks so that you're briefly vulnerable, but has much higher range so you can keep some distance and go _around_ the group instead. Some skills could of course still rely on DPS to keep both paths viable and balanced.

What about speed/armor tradeoffs? If you're wearing plate and carrying a shield, your "fast" skills and attacks will slow down, relative to wearing lighter armor types and only single wielding.

For tanking, you could try defensive skills that rely on facing, so it's not just a boring "I'm invincible now", but you still have to worry about positioning, similar to SE's current AOE. This would have the added bonus of tension between getting up close and dealing the damage vs. not letting the mobs actually _surround_ you.

Lotta quick, easy dreams on my end. Now get to work and make 'em happen!

[mercius]

I love the devestate ability personally...i love watching my big tub o muscle hop around the screen bringing death down on his foes!

[thisbarb]

I love the devestate ability personally...i love watching my big tub o muscle hop around the screen bringing death down on his foes!

Yea, I was thinking about cleaning up the skill a bit. The act of holding down Devastate is actually less-cost effective than rapid-clicking the skill.

[thisbarb]

1) I know it's cliche, but "leap" was what made barbs playable for me.

No Whirlwind?

[mercius]

Agree with you, i tend to spam click it, but the effect of hopping around when you hoild it down is so cool!

[AnalogKid]

No Whirlwind?

Yeah, definitely Whirlwind. The damage of leap was nice, but the situational maneuverability of leap to get where I wanted and control the relative positioning of mobs so that I could WW when/where I wanted is what made barbs more fun for me, rather than just "see mob pack, WW into them". I LOVED luring in the pesky trash and then leaping over them to the doom of their master! Leeping through grates and across streams and such was very cool too, even if not very realistic.

It just felt ... liberating.

[Hellmouth]

Agree with you, i tend to spam click it, but the effect of hopping around when you hoild it down is so cool!

Funnily enough it makes me chuckle imagining it over ballet music background.

[phool]

-More emphasis on active crowd control skills and mobility over tanking and spamming.
-less refreshing shit every dozen seconds. Instead switch to skills like Frenzy where the utilities become a side effect of an attack so getting your buffs/debuffs out ceases to be a chore.

[thisbarb]

-More emphasis on active crowd control skills and mobility over tanking and spamming.
-less refreshing shit every dozen seconds. Instead switch to skills like Frenzy where the utilities become a side effect of an attack so getting your buffs/debuffs out ceases to be a chore.

Yea, Frenzy is sadly missing from Torchlight.

[Symbol]

Lol, is this the Guild Wars frenzy we're talking about here?

[phool]

No, Frenzy's an awesome skill in GW but it wouldn't translate very well because you lose the whole aggro management aspect.

Diablo Frenzy is a melee attack skill that gives a ~6 second buff when you attack with it. I find the destroyer in general suffers from constantly refreshing buffs which kills the furious pace of gameplay TL could offer, so switching the buffs from being self targeting to being triggered by attacking others means instead of pausing to buff, in and out of battle ( the way echo stacks on itself), action is still driven forward.


Actually my other ideal change, really ambitious though, would be a complete shift in the way armour works, from flat absorption dominating to a Diablo system of % hit or % reduction with flat absorption reduced to little more than flavour/1-2 gimmick all-out builds. As is stands armour can let you ignore most enemies while still doing almost nothing versus a really heavy-hitter.

[thisbarb]

It sounds feasible, but not something I want to jump into.

You could use the % damage reduction affix and set it to a level curve, I believe. Then you can add that affix on every single piece of armor in the game.

[AnalogKid]

I agree about the armor issue. I was going to post a big long theory post about game-balancing with fixed thresholds instead of % reduction, in the end I doubt I will. At a minimum, I'd re-balance the health vs. armor quantities. As it is now, pretty much anything can one-shot you with a crit (late game) because armor is almost as big as health.

Anyway, as to the "% reduction" affix idea, just be careful that you don't make it too easy to reduce 100% of the dmg. You would need the game mechanics to do something like a dmg/(1+x) damage reduction, rather than just dmg*(1-x), which I think is how it's hardcoded now.

I also agree with the frenzy comment in general, not just about that one skill. Look at leech... if one has massive health leech, one can get "stuck" into attacking constantly, relying on the leech to stay alive while the group of mobs is breathing on you, or whatever. A break in attacking to try and run away and do better CC would result in instant death. Of course that's an extreme example, but I love that instead of just the same ol' buff-hit-run tactics, big leech can at least sometimes actually create situations where DIFFERENT TACTICS are required. Spiffy, indeed. Skills that trigger on hit would all create similar types of situations... I need to charge and go berserk to get advantage of all my skills, but is this particular mob not the one I should be charging at? Hmmm....

[Iggy]

1. I'd like to see more abilities based one space/motion. Things like Stampede, or in D2, the paladin's charge, the barbarian's leap and whirlwind, the assassin's dragon flight.
These are fun because they all introduce something else besides +X damage, with different affixes. They get one step closer to beat'em all/fighting games, you have to know their range, and i like this mix. Their use immediately changes the situation on the battlefield, almost like CC without being one.

I think that's why some classes in other games are more fun than others. A warrior in wow with his charge/intercept gives him an unique feel, just like the rogue's shadow step, the mage's blink.

2. Skills from the destroyer that I'd like to see : Some of his defense. My first go at the game was with a rogue Vanquisher on very hard. Stupid me.
I tried to make the most out of it, running through with Hamstring to slow/debuff them, a few Venomous Dirks, then repeat the other way around, all of this while dodging missiles like crazy. But just to get one/two shotted when mobs would actually hit me, and equipping a shield didn't change things by much. Quite frustrating to be honest, I'm not sure i like this way to balance things. Its okay for a melee class to be a little fragile as a trade-off for some good damage, but that wasn't this. It's just, Die, unless you have a huge defense.

3. Meta-game. I like to find skills that "synergizes" in a fun way. Not based on this skill buff that one (cool too ), but more like leaping on a monster, bashing him away to releap again. Or charge then Zeal, repeat to another mob. Little combos that make a unique gameplay for a certain combination.

[thisbarb]

Skills that function well together is what I'm looking at. Right now, most of the skills are stand alone. You use one skill and forget the rests. I'm looking to find a way to change that. Your charge + zeal example isn't the most ideal (charge + smite is better because it proc'd faster, stunned, and always proc'd).

[CCCenturion]

What I miss most about D2 barbs is their Warcries -- and not just the buffs. Howling the mobs away then Taunting them back one at a time made for some awesome crowd control.