The Respec Compromise *UPDATE!2* Not solved at all

[adoomgod]

The reason I favor level based re specs, is because I don't see it as something that breaks the bank for low level characters and is pocket change for endgame characters. I don't think having re spec so readily available that some one might clear the dungeon with one build pop a re spec potion and fight the boss with another, and then change to a third build entirely for the next zone is a good thing. I don't think re specing should be trivially easy and constantly done on a whim, hard limits make it a serious decision because you will eventually run out, I suppose it's possible that some scaling cost could keep it from becoming so, I'm just not confident in that option myself.

Basically I want re spec in the game, but I want the cost whatever it may be, high enough that dropping off to town and min/maxing your build for every zone/boss is not really an option or something the game would need to be balanced for.

There is something to this. At first one thinks, "that's silly, nobody would respec for each zone. What a hassle and a bore etc." I thought it too. Then I thought, wait I'm imagining the game on normal. On very hard hardcore, after I've already beaten the game on non-hardcore very hard, I will know if certain skills worked better in certain areas.

But again, if it isn't hardcore it isn't an issue. If people want to take the time to respec for a zone let them. Didn't we argue before that respeccing cheapens the experience? This implies the opposite. The player would be intelligently respeccing to meet the challenge. It's just like choosing between a sword or bow for an upcoming battle.

In hardcore it does matter, because hardcore should be hardcore. Your build doesn't work well in this zone? Then you better suck it up and tread carefully! Heh

Krayzen I thin you have one wrong idea. TL 2 isn't going to be like Diablo 2 where you had monsters immune to 2 out of 3 elements, and you could only make.a build viable focusing on one. There may be resistant monsters but I think the devs agree that finding a monster immune to your main forms of attack isn't a good mechanic, it's a bad one. Resistant is another thing, and the devs, fact, have said that they are working to make all the skills viable choices, aka useful through out the game. Also note that in Diablo 2 you could spend 20 skill points in a skill and some skills sucked. In TL2 it will probably be 15 max in a skill, some with lower caps, and all being worth investment. This means there won't even be a need to respec to meet a zone's demands, as your skill portfolio will be diverse.

[amb2010]

The issue I see with the "respec to stomp a zone" argument is that it's not entirely a flaw in respec. That's a core balance issue. If random chunks of the game posed no challenge to X skill, then anyone with that skill regardless of when they got it would be able to breeze through it. The fact you can respec to change accordingly simply elevates that problem but blaming it solely on re-spec is just something I don't think can be done. That said a game is never perfect and the solution would be to simply not let on-the-fly respecs occur. Require a person to be in town and then, while they can still port to town and back after a respec it would be *much* more of a hassle.

[adoomgod]

Agreed. Kray, I think you are imagining things through "Diablo-2-Sorceress" goggles. If a D2 sorc could respec on the fly, that'd be op. Heck if they could respec unlimited at town they could still wiz thru the game.

But, Diablo 2's .... A bit dated. And the genre has evolved. Respeccing will probably barely impact the difficulty at all. It might just make the game a bit faster, which is good in the ARPG genre.

In hardcore it might make things easier tho. So no respecs in hardcore.

Problem solve.

I mean the assumption that respeccing will have that much of an impact on certain zones is a big assumption. And even if it did, why stop people?

[Krayzen]

Yea I'm pretty sure Torchlight 2 isn't going be like diablo 2 where using a skill well meant, putting 20 points into it and 20 points into its 3-5 synergies, however my point is that with casual enough re spec options charter builds don't exists so much as zone/purpose builds. If players can always have the optimal build doesn't that cheapen any sense of flavor or theme? Re specing for close quarters combat in a zone filled with confined areas may be akin to choosing the right tool for the job, but wasn't whole point in creating such a zone that some builds wouldn't have the right tools?

I guess it's really a game design question, if zones or skills are sufficiently generalized it may not matter at all but we really don't know that at this point so the possibility at least merits some consideration. I'm not demanding the removal of re spec option merely advocating some mechanism or cost to dissuade on the fly frequent use of it as either a crutch to bad game design or to the detriment of good game balance.

I know its not hard to scale cost to character level Hawkn, I just can't recall seeing it done well.. thus my lack of confidence.

[hawkn]

Lol, I'm pretty sure an 8th grader could put together an algorithm that scaled accordingly. It really isn't that hard, and if someone has failed at it, they probably didn't understand their game's "economy" anyways.

I mean, if you were really lazy, you could just figure out a balanced number for each and every level, 1 through 100, and write a long if/then loop. "If level is X, then price is Y"

[Graeystone]

Some ideas -
Make Respec a 1 time reward for either beating a plot boss(like the Eye gotten from the one boss that raised the Defense Stat a couple of points in TL1).

Make it a Side Quest reward for some optional side quest.

In both cases, a player gets only 1 respec potion and has to use it wisely or not at all and either dumps it or sells it.

In Titan Quest there is a shop that you could Respec and regain skill points but it gets more expensive the more its used.

In TL1, when a Level Up happened, there would be a + and - on the Stat Menu next to the Attributes for adding or taking a way a stat point. The same should be done for the Skill Tree plus a confirmation screen after putting the point(s). Also a sub-menu that says - "These are the skills you chose.(List the picked skill(s) Are these the skills you want? Yes/No" This should at least cut down on picking the wrong skill by mistake.

[cheeseheads]

I just wish runic would just say what they where doing for this topic and just end it Either way 1 side is not gonna be happy and worse comes to worse a mod will have to be made.

[Perictione]

I just wish runic would just say what they where doing for this topic and just end it

A fair request, I feel, but like many things relating to the game this issue probably won't be "decided" until the last moment before the game is actually published. And you can bet, if it's being argued here, it's being discussed at HQ too.


- P.

[adoomgod]

I just wish runic would just say what they where doing for this topic and just end it

A fair request, I feel, but like many things relating to the game this issue probably won't be "decided" until the last moment before the game is actually published. And you can bet, if it's being argued here, it's being discussed at HQ too.


- P.

10 bucks says their solution is really neat, and probably not black or white.

[Jerich]

Very hard is not static this time, so disabling respecs for it wouldn't be possible. You choose difficulty when you make the game now, not on character creation.

[DarkTails]

And you can bet, if it's being argued here, it's being discussed at HQ too.

Some people just like over-complicating a game. I don't think anyone at Runic is seriously going "Golly, what are we gonna do about respeccing? It's such a game-changer in our game that to ignore it would be a fatal mistake!"

It's not important. It doesn't affect gameplay for a game where EVERYTHING is already respeccable.

[Archanoth]

I think the best solution is to allow respec for both attribute points and skill points.
An implementation similar to the one in Titan Quest would be nice.
You would respec each point individually for a gold cost that increases with each respec use.
Besides that, respeccing a whole skill (the last invested point in it) would cost significantly more than respeccing only a single point in that skill (for example, downgrading Onslaught from rank 6 to 5 would cost only 50 base gold, for example, while downgrading it from rank 1 to 0, i.e., removing the skill, would cost 250 base gold.)
The base gold cost would also be determined by level range, and possibly increase significantly in higher levels (maybe exponentially?).
Furthermore, to appease both crowds, we could have an Ironman/Old-School game mode with specific restrictions, which could include the ability to respec.

This way, we get a respec system where:
- Every choice can be reversed.
- You can easily experiment and adjust small details in your build without a significant investment.
- You can have some feeling of permanence since replacing your skillset is considerably more expensive.
- You aren't forced to fully respec and only have to invest as much as you want to change (i.e. no unfair situations like paying 10k gold to respec your whole skillset + stats vs 10k gold to only shift 3 skil points from one skill to the other)
- Adds a meaningful gold sink to the game.
- Allows for hardcore/old-school players to play without respec and be distinguished/recognized for it (similarly to Hardcore characters).
- You're more incentivized to respec and experiment in the early game (level 1-40 or so) without any meaningful penalty and to perfect your character build as you reach the higher levels.

[hawkn]

And you can bet, if it's being argued here, it's being discussed at HQ too.

Some people just like over-complicating a game. I don't think anyone at Runic is seriously going "Golly, what are we gonna do about respeccing? It's such a game-changer in our game that to ignore it would be a fatal mistake!"

It's not important. It doesn't affect gameplay for a game where EVERYTHING is already respeccable.

It takes maybe an hour to implement, and it saves everyone from needing to use a mod. Is it really so wrong to ask for it in vanilla, considering some people will be playing in guilds with no mods allowed?

[DarkTails]

It's not "wrong", just unimportant in a game where you'll already be able to do it.

Can't you just modify your stats through the console anyway? I imagine it's already available to make the devs' jobs easier.

Edit: From what I remember, I could add stat points in TL1 through the console, never tried removing them. But what's the point in removing points from a stat or skill you're not going to use anyway?

[hawkn]

Yeah, but that's just your opinion on whether or not it's important. I for one think it's very important.

And yes, you could do some stuff via the console, but it flagged you a cheater. Yet again, something you don't want in the vanilla game, or on vanilla multiplayer.

[DarkTails]

Yeah, but that's just your opinion, I for one don't care about getting flagged a cheater.

This isn't an important issue, there's nothing being discussed here (fine, maybe, I skimmed) that can't most likely be solved with the console.

-Can we use the console during multiplayer?
-Will using the console during single player block us from using that character in multi-player?
-Will we even have a cheater label this time?

Lots of things we (I) don't know.

[adoomgod]

It's not "wrong", just unimportant in a game where you'll already be able to do it.

9 pages in 5 days says people care. People care = important.

Though I see your point.

[turnipz]

Skills will be a couple of lines in a file that are read in, making a program to modify them wont be difficult.

[DarkTails]

People care = important.

That's false.

[Zidders]

Spoiler: show

Sorry doom, but I think this thread is now stuck in a negative/positive feedback loop. I think a lot of great ideas have been presented but I think it's getting olllllld.