The Respec Compromise *UPDATE!2* Not solved at all

[adoomgod]

... Ur SN is my second SN on tribes ascend...

[Arlian]

We've done some good expressing our views. Imho, we need to work at a compromise as suggested by Doom.

I mean no disrespect but here's what I see:

One ice cream camp says they like chocolate but don't like vanilla for various reasons.
The other ice cream says they like vanilla but hate chocolate for various reasons.

While that is necessary, I don't know how it contributes to a solution (, again; I mean no offense and don't want to sound like I'm picking on anyone here.

I ask, why not create a lighter chocolate to bridge the gap of the two camps so we can reach a reasonable solution. Several of you have posted some compromises and I enjoyed reading that, but the creative part of me is yearning to see more creativity from all of you.

Good thread Doom, glad you made it ^_^.

[Delpheous]

Well, what I'm getting from this two is that the respect side is kinda split on why they want respecs in the first place.

-Some say it's because they're worried they might mess up their build.
-Some say it's not that the build is messed up, but just that it could get boring later on down the line.
-Some don't want to have to spend the time to re-level just to try a different build with the same character.

No respec people are all basically saying, "choices should have consequences...and even if you screw up so badly you have to restart, the game will have so much random content that you're playing a different game each character anyways."

I think before we work on a true compromise of respec vs. no respec, there has to be an issue with putting together which of the three core reasons for respec should even matter, particularly in a game like TL2. I mean, this doesn't look like a game where leveling will be a chore. Seems there'll always be a quest to do, always a nook or cranny to explore, always some higher level areas you can get to, and it's all randomized passed the main quest line.

Doom's original point was only looking at the one issue for respecs...screwing up your build. This is the one I have the most sympathy for, just because I remember a friend of mine getting into hardcore diablo 2 char leveling without using any guides for guidance...and screwing up a lot of characters once he got to the higher levels. Of course now, there's not an rpg he can't break in two after one play-through...so I guess my "sympathy" isn't even that great even in that case.

For the other two, I think Astasia said it best; It shouldn't feel like a chore to play a game...and just based on everything I've seen from TL2, the game looks like a ton of fun right from the get go. I'm sure there'll be some stupid, slow, "find the eight relics in the gigantic desert haw, haw, haw, haw!!" quest (like there always is in an rpg with a desert zone...) but you can't have awesome quests without having stupid tedious ones too....I guess.

But still, this is a compromise thread, here's my idea.

Maybe it could just be a quest. Not a really hard one, but difficult enough, that it makes you evaluate your current build as you progress through the dungeon. Something that could be a trial which would emphasize any builds strengths or weaknesses before it's done, so that when you get to the end of it, and you're asked if you really want to respec, players might realize that they had something good after all.

That way too, it could even work into people who do enjoy their builds, but want to see where their weaknesses are, and the types of enemies/magic types they should probably try to avoid.

This way, it's still apart of the game, so it could feel like character progression, it probably wouldn't take anymore time then any other quest...and if you're REALLY that bored with your build, when you're done you get a brand new one.

/shrug

[Alpro]

The point is to make gold a valuable resource that you really use and don't end up with excessive amounts of it too easily which would allow the abuse of the shops and gambler, lowering the difficulty of the game.

The point of gold is to buy stuff, shops and gambler are your gold sinks, i don't see how this can be abuse, they're there for that. If their goods lower the difficulty of the game, then the game is poorly designed. Besides, in TL1, how often do you buy gear from the merchant and gambler and how often do you get something really good? I find rares and uniques more often than i buy and they're often better than what the merchants offer. I really don't see a problem here. Even though i find your point of view interesting, it seems our opinions are completely opposed. We'll have to agree to disagree and keep the debate healthy. Still, i agree with you on something, there is no right answer when it comes to respec and we're making progress.

[torchy2]

I agree that re-playability should be for a 'fun' reason, ie: playing a new class..etc. and not because your frustrated about re-leveling just to move a single skill point because you didn't like a certain power/ability. I would like to think there is a sense of continuity with your high level toons as well and not something to be never played once you reach a certain point, and not something discarded/deleted, after days or weeks of leveling and acquiring gear, out of frustration because you didn't like the powers you chose. Your high level characters can continue either through player mods or future torchlight 2 content.

Informed decision making, most games tend to not give enough information on the abilities you can choose. Sometimes, you just don't know if your going to like the power/ability until you try it out. I suppose player mods can let you be in a practice room and test out all kinds of builds and let you try out all the powers/abilities.

[Cogzwell]

In Path of Exile there's an item called "orb of remorse" which will drop randomly in the world. It gives you one point to take from something else in your passive tree and put it somewhere. Something could be done like this, or maybe one item could take all the points out of a select skill.

[Derekffs]

3 Allowed respecs is fair and easy. A certain amount of respects is REALLY needed because I remember it being helpful in the diablo patch, otherwize I probably would of quit more early. Its important to be allowed to respec, aslong as theres a limit.

[Hermokrates]

Doom, all of this is just theorycraft. So no compromise is needed. Respecs are going to be in the game or modded in no matter what. The things I want to see happen to erase this need for a perfect character is for the game to balance out, so that everyone has their time in the gutter. Concise skill text, easy to read Damage and a Rock Paper Scissors type balance would make my day.

If you feel like leveling up is a chore, go find a different game. I'm so tired of this "my time is precious" whine. If your time is so precious, why don't you do something worth your time then? Thumbs up to Astasia.

And another thing Doom. Is the respec behind lock and key in the pits of flame guarded by several bosses? That is the only way I would see it work.

[hawkn]

The "My OPINION is better than yours, you're wrong, but right if you agree with me" in this thread is annoying. Listen, if you have no life, and thousands of hours to dump into a game, feel free. Don't use the respec, whatever. But guess what, some of us have school, a job, or both. Saying that playing a game if you can't play for hundreds of hours is wrong is just stupid. It doesn't affect you, and my respecing is going to happen no matter how much you bitch, moan, and whine about it not being fair, or being cheap. Why should I have to use a third party client? It would be much easier for Runic to just add a respec, and if you don't like it, learn some self control, and don't use it.

The above post is merely my opinion on how it should work, just like every other damn post in the forum.

Again, some of us not only are capable of doing the math to make the "perfect" build, but we enjoy it. Is that somehow not as good as your way of enjoying a game?

[adoomgod]

Hey, I am with you man. Flame pits and death traps and 5 boss monsters to respec.

But some of my "compromises" should be painless to you.

Giving everyone a full refund at lvl 10 or 15? Helps newbies find a groove.

Letting you to mess around with your last spent skill point? Let's you try a skill out before you blindly pick it based on description.

I definitely wouldn't care at all about a full refund offer at a low level, it doesn't make a difference in the long run.

I personally don't mind "buying before trying", and like it, but I think try before you buy skill points would appeal to a broader demographic.

The dual spec unlock at a high level though I understand you being against, but the above 2 shouldn't bother you so much.

@Hawkn. Please try to respond more kindly, as a favor to me if not the forum. Also, I don't just post opinions, sometimes my word IS law. and you are over looking the fact that you could just mod respec in. Why does it have to be in vanilla ? There is no right or wrong answer thanks to mods. So let's all play nice.

[hawkn]

I'm just saying that if it's going to happen either way, why not make it as painless as possible?

Sorry for coming across as snappy, it's just annoying to even come to the general discussion with all of the entitled trolls/brats hanging around.

[Zidders]

Did I give everyone rabies or something?
My bad.

[hawkn]

I blame the roo. Always blame the grey roo.

[amb2010]

So two parts, answering Doom's question and then elaborating on why I think this whole "respec debate" is utterly pointless.

Doom, modding it in while being totally possible defeats the point. Not only does it limit your MP choices (not entirely sure how much at this point) but it forces people that want to use it to have to go out of their way to even have the OPTION to use it. Installing a mod sure may seem simple but not everyone can do it without a hitch, the TL1 forums are proof of that. Where as having it in the game by default removes that burden and has *no* impact on the people that don't want to use it, since you know they can just *ignore* it.

Now on to part 2 and I'll be totally honest. There's no need for compromising. None at all. One side just needs to stop caring and that's all this boils down to. You have one side that wants to dictate how someone *else* plays a video game because they don't agree with the playstyle. If you hate respec, then just don't use it. Why is that so hard? If someone else uses it, it has no bearing on you. You can play the game how you want. Why make it so someone else can't play the game how they want? If they wanted a button in the game they could press that lets them one shot every monster then I could see people being so dead-set against it since someone one shotting every monster would seriously put a damper in your slaughterfest but give me one reason as to why respec being included in a game ruins your personal experience with the game. I have yet to see that.

Ruining replay value? If you're the type that enjoys running through a game multiple times just to try different things, then you'll do that anyways. Respec has no bearing on that since it's a personal choice to decide if you want to use it.

Makes talent choices redundant? To an extent this is true, which is why you would balance it. Not make it too hard to get to defeat the point of it being a quality of life feature but not make it so easy that you can just spam it all day. That how ever is a Dev decision on what kind of game *they want to make*. It still boils down to, if you don't want to use it then don't use it. If you loathe re-spec so much you wouldn't go near so again, it wouldn't make *your* talent choices redundant.

That's all I really see this argument as being, a "I don't want these things anywhere near my game because I don't agree with it" and I really don't think that's a proper way to go about it. We all love playing video games, but we all love playing it different ways. Why not try using some self control and not use features you don't like instead of trying to force your view and playstyle on people? This is of course just my point of view on the subject matter so feel free to disagree.

[Mivo]

Makes talent choices redundant? To an extent this is true, which is why you would balance it. Not make it too hard to get to defeat the point of it being a quality of life feature but not make it so easy that you can just spam it all day.

You know, for a long time I was in the "makes talent choices redundant" camp, and sometimes, I still wander over and feel at home. But actually, does it really make talent choices redundant, or does it just prevent frustration? I don't know about you guys, but when I played TL (or really any other talent/skill-based RPG) and wasn't sure about the "best" choice for a talent/skill point, and there wasn't a painfully obvious place for it elsewhere, I would not use it. As a result, I'd slug through the game (whatever game it was), making it artificially tedious and burning myself out. Was it enjoyable? Rarely. And if I "screwed up" and there was no way to respec, like back in D2 on b.net (before you could respec), I would simply dump the character and start over. Was that enjoyable? Not really, no. It made the talent choice somewhat of an obsession.

I guess I wonder why actually you would need to balance this and couldn't just make it readily available, if the goal is to provide a fun, non-frustrating, non-OCD-triggering experience. Even in vanilla WoW when the respeccing costs were capped at 50 gold (a lot of gold at the time), and I needed a different spec for the raid than for solo stuff or PvP, I would bite the bullet and farm the gold. It annoyed me, but I figured if I want to have fun, I need to put in some work. This was a flawed view, though. Work, in the negative sense, in a game? Spending two hours of tedium so I could enjoy the next two? Somehow this is off, you know?

(Like I said, I'm somewhat torn on the topic still, so the above is just one of various thought processes.)

[katsukilove]

Respec is a necessary tool for nowadays ARPG with endgame, but a proper price has to be paid.

D2 v1.09- had no respec, but there were methods to quickly level rush to high level. In v1.1X, they limited the rush by setting a level requirement for each difficulty level.

In return, they give 1 quest per difficulty level for free respec, after that, a relatively-not-that-easy method to respec is to collect the essences from act bosses and form a respec token.

[Hermokrates]

Oh hawkn, it was like you ranted at me. I'm honored. But you still missed what I was saying though.

I am not a fan of respecs because it causes some bad game behaviors. (In my opinion. Because apparently my opinion is best.)
The angry buyer syndrome. Where the customer will never be happy with the product.
Me too syndrome. Just because it is in "a" means it has to be everywhere.
It causes some of the challenge/uniqueness of the game to be lost because you can just "respec" and all sins are forgiven.

One of the things I would like to see somewhat enforced in the game in comparison to the "QQ Respec" is teamwork. Filling in the weakness of your teammates. Not everyone is going to MP though. The second thing I would like to see influence the game is the synergies of the skill sets compared to the bread and butter damage model. It's not about just damage, but exploiting weakness. I would hope for some unique situations where some skills are highlighted and others ignored.

No hawkn. I am not saying "If you can't play for hundreds of hours, don't play it." Thanks for the word sandwich there. I said "If your time is so precious, why don't you do something worth your time then?" As if you have to complain about not having the time to play the game, or if you are afraid of your time being wasted in TL2, do something that is "worth your time." ****. Every damn time. Geez.

And I think I stated several times how respec affects me, on the grounds of the game. But your freedomdemocracyrage blinds you of that, Hawkn. Secondly, having better Skill Text, Clear Damage Notation and some strategy within the mechanics other than kite,kite,kite actually lowers the bar of entry. So that people like me, who clearly do not have the IQ to build the perfect build (and probably is less of a person for not being that smart) can still finish the game and still feel powerful. And the "mistakes" of normal people aren't as exaggerated when those skills can still come in handy at a different time.

That's right, if I haven't said it already. I believe that respecs are the worst way to fix a perceived/actual balance problem. I'm down for Quality of Life functions like Temporary Points, Training rooms and Respec Missions. I am not down for those who find themselves in a pickle and cry "respec." I dislike the notion of only being able to play with the perfect build.

But what do I know? I'm just an entitled troll who wants to hold other players back in the dark ages of ARPG's, isn't that right Hawkn?

P.S. Doom, I tried to be civil.
P.S.S What? I can't be pleased to have people who agree with me and acknowledge the common thought? Seriously?

[tolokoph]

/shrug

I play arpg style games to collect and find neat items.. the character is just a tool I use.. no problem here with any type of respec.

If someone doesn't like it they can just not use it, it's that simple I only play vh/hc anyway so i dont usually get to a point where it's relevant lol

[freche]

I don't see whats the problem in "if you don't like it, don't use it". Personally I find the fast travel in games like Skyrim to be quite immersion breaker and had no problem in not using it.

Same can be applied when you start out in TL2. I know too little about different skill choices in TL2 but lets say when you started your first Mage. You take a quick look at the skills and decide "I'm going 100% fire, it looks nice" (don't care if it's doable, this is just an example) and then you see some video about some awesome frost mage doing all kinds of cool stuff. If you don't like respecing just create another mage and and say to yourself "I'm going to go frost on this one".

(Personally I find most games have very little replayability even if I play different classes etc.)

[cheeseheads]

I don't see whats the problem in "if you don't like it, don't use it". Personally I find the fast travel in games like Skyrim to be quite immersion breaker and had no problem in not using it.

Same can be applied when you start out in TL2. I know too little about different skill choices in TL2 but lets say when you started your first Mage. You take a quick look at the skills and decide "I'm going 100% fire, it looks nice" (don't care if it's doable, this is just an example) and then you see some video about some awesome frost mage doing all kinds of cool stuff. If you don't like respecing just create another mage and and say to yourself "I'm going to go frost on this one".

(Personally I find most games have very little replayability even if I play different classes etc.)

while i agree with you. both sides seem stubborn and wont give up a inch. So looks like Runic will have to be the judge on this and make the final vote. Good luck Runic cause your not gonna make everybody happy im guessing