The Respec Compromise *UPDATE!2* Not solved at all

[hawkn]

I still fail to see the point in a compromise though. There literally are two options. Add respec, or don't. Obviously the potion, or w/e it is that allows you to respec would cost a bit of gold, but that should be it. If you make it a pain in the ass to respec, it defeats the purpose of putting it in the game, and people will just use a character editor. It's as simple as "if you don't like it, don't use it". Seriously. You aren't going to reach a compromise that will make either party happy. There are people who want to easily respec. And there are people who want to control how others play. Finding a middle ground will just piss off both parties. Like I said, I'll just go do it the easy way (editing my save file) if I lose a point, or have to spend an hour to be allowed one respec - hell, even the ideas that you can respec up until X level, or X respecs per Y levels would be annoying. So they might as well just add it, and if you don't like it, here's a box of tissues for your QQ.

Spoiler: show

[Zidders]

Doom, the reason only a few people seem to want to compromise is because a lot of people (including yourself) aren't looking at this from a game mechanics viewpoint, they're looking at it from the viewpoint of how someone elses preferred playstyle affects them personally. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. There's already been a respec or no respect thread (I think that one got locked, btw, much like this one probably will be).

Just how does the knowledge that people are out there respeccing affect you, the player, personally? Just how does it take away from your accomplishment? If anything, someone taking the easy way to glory would make your accomplishment all the more impressive. If you climb mount everest and I take the super secret sherpa industries express elevator to the top, guess what? Sure, i've been to the top but I took the easy way. There's really no glory in that. You made the dangerous climb, risked life and limb etc etc. Same deal with the game.

We had a similar conversation back in my everquest days when Depths of Darkhallow came out. Depths introduced a new system:Monster missions. These allowed players to take missions, but playing as a high end monster instead of a player character. For example, a player might assume the role of 'Lord Nagafen' and repel a raid of NPCs who have come to slay the dragon lord for his rare treasures.

The problem with them was that they offered far too much reward at first for the amount of effort involved. The reason I say its similar to what were talking about here is because players, instead of focusing on how to best fix the issue in a way that would make everyone happy without totally nerfing the missions or making them not worth the effort and not as much fun, focused entirely on the fact that some people chose to take advantage of the quick leveling these missions brought vs those who chose not to take the fast and easy way.

It became a long, drawn out fight, lots of people were angry and said things, people left the game, the forums became intolerable, etc. And I could understand why people playing an mmo would feel upset. Taking the fast route in an mmo means less time spent learning your class, critical knowledge when it comes to playing in such a group based setting.

Torchlight is a bit different, tho. While the game 'does' take some skill to play (I would hate to imply the devs plan on making the game too easy, or that they aren't skilled at making a game that seems easy at first but actually has a complex and deep system once you get to know it) but there isn't as much of a learning curve when it comes to Torchlight. Everquest got pretty damn complicated pretty damn fast and it's a wonder I was able to handle half of the situations my character ended up in. This kind of game is a lot friendlier a game to get into. You really don't need to worry so much that someone who took that elevator is going to leave you in a slump.

This is also where playing with players you know to be good players comes in, as well.

So here's where the compomise part of my massive continuation of the off topic portion of this particular thread comes in. Please not that all of this is purely my own opinion, feel free to ignore it. I think most folks in favor of respeccing or at least tolerant of it seem to agree that it should be costly. I agree. Changing your character should be something you really take time to dwell on. If you feel you made a mistake then of course, you won't need to but once you have amassed a great amount of gear, you're going to want to be carefull you don't make the wrong choice and end up losing out on all that gear.

So here's my suggestion. (Forgive me if i'm sniping ideas from anyone) When you respec, you
1)lose all experience gained for that level. This will ensure that players half way or more towards the next level are encouraged to hold off on respeccing until they hit the next level.
2)Respec hits every 20 levels and gets exponentially more expensive. Cost is your level times your level, plus 1k at 20, your level times your level plus 10k at 40, your level times your level plus 100k at 60, your level times your level plus 500k at 80 and your level plus your level times 1,000,000 at 100. Ok, I know that's really not quite exponential but I fail at math. This is the most reasonable I thing I could come up with.
3)If the fame system is still in use, same as #1

I think respeccing should give players a way to alter their character should they decide they've spent points unwisely after learning a class more thouroughly or having decided that the prefer a different build due to realizing they prefer a particular playstyle. This is the benefit that makes it worth the cost, I feel.

Ok, tl;dr, kangaroos rock.

[adoomgod]

It's like the longer you talk the ruder you become. Why do you ignore over and over that you can have a respec mod? Seriously please drop the 'tude.

*edit* this was to hawkn.

*edit2* ok zidders, your right, it shouldn't bother me if other people respec but it does. Lol. Maybe if your character got labeled somewhere based on how many times they respec, a respec counter in the stats tab. Yeah, actually that would make me feel all better, heh.

Point #2. I think one's allocations should have weight. There should be a price for playing stupidly and a price for redoing a build.

[hawkn]

And you keep ignoring that there is no reason it should be, or should have to be a mod. Again, this all comes down to personal opinions and preferences, so for now I'm just going to trust that the devs will make a good choice, and either way I'll live with it.

I already stated numerous times that I'd use a mod, or a 3rd party client if need be - in fact, I'm pretty sure I did in just about every post. However, why should I have to use a mod? How is my point any less valid than any other? Like I said, if anything, it's the people who want a respec who suffer. There should be no reason to jump through hoops to get a respec in the game, only to appease the people who claim to not want it anyways. If they don't want it, they shouldn't use it. The people who want to respec will. Period. Why not just make it easier? It's not like people will be able to walk around saying "I did X thing without doing Y thing" in a game that's totally moddable anyways. I'm not even going to go into why it shouldn't have to be a mod again though, since Amb already covered that.

*Edit* The tracker for how many respecs would be totally fine with me, assuming respecs are in the game (and it's not a pain in the ass to do). Because it's not like you can't use a 3rd party client to hid that anyways... -_- I could care less if people know, all I want is to be able to craft the perfect build.

There should be no NEED for a compromise, that is the point I'm trying to make. People will respec, no matter how much you QQ about it. Therefore, why doesn't Runic just accept this, and make it easy?

[adoomgod]

Kk, like I said, throw in a "times respecced" stat in the player stats tab, and I'll be fine. I think that there should be something that sets people who don't respec apart, and let that be a number. That solves everything. Respeccers get respecs, and non-respeccers get the number "0" for times respecced.

This should make everyone happy. It's so simple it's genius.

*edit* thx hawkn for being less mocking in your last reply. Now if I could make it a constant...

[hawkn]

There we go, something (well, at least I) agree with. I don't care if people know I respec, considering I'd likely openly admit it.

*Edit* I'm a snarky, sarcastic asshole, if that wasn't totally obvious.

[D1Tremere]

Zidders, while I agree with much of what you say on the forums you missed the point of my post entirely.
The words I chose to use (fascist, Etc.) are not about the game but about ways of thinking and in this case are perfectly valid to definition. It disturbs me when people don't understand the thought process they are reflecting and how this can lead to very serious actions.

What we are talking about here is choice, and some peoples desire to refuse it to others on no better ground then there own sense of propriety. In this instance it may be over something not all that serious in the grand scheme of things, but thats how things always start. Small.

If someone thinks re-playability is best expressed by multiple playthrews with each character class I would disagree, but regardless you have that option no matter if respecs are included. Or rather the point is, those who don't like respec don't appear to be content with the idea of not using them but would prefer it if other players were forced to be just like them.

At worst its a case of "leave them no option but to conform", at best its a matter of "go find a mod, so we can confine your deviant behavior to those types of games".

I simply can't understand nor remain silent in any conversation which supports a way of thinking in which others liberties are restricted in order to preserve what some consider the "proper" way to do it.

If this were truly a question of accomplishment or replay value, perhaps we should look at better ideas then forced replay of the same class over and over. Given the number of classes in Torchlight 2 and the multiplayer however I doubt we will need something as base as attribute punishments to keep us playing for a long time.

[adoomgod]

There we go, something (well, at least I) agree with. I don't care if people know I respec, considering I'd likely openly admit it.

*Edit* I'm a snarky, sarcastic asshole, if that wasn't totally obvious.

I know but I am Doom, so just keep your buns pointed at people that aren't me and it's all good. I expect respect from the people I give it to .



The Ultimate Respec Compromise!!!

I think this is it folks. Put a not expensive but reasonable price tag on respecs, sell skill and stat respecs separately as 2 different potions, and 1 potion of double price that does both, and have a counter in your stats page that shoes how many times you respecced.

The full refund at a low level juncture offered in my idea in my first post wouldn't count towards the number, and skill points should still be try before you buy. The core rationale behind non-respeccers is that we want to be acknowledged for having built up characters from 1 to 100 without error. So add in the respec counter and we can screenshout our "0" and feel good.

Any person who disagrees with the above without a logical reason stated I will probably overlook at this point as "close-minded" and "tries to enforce play-style on others." I really think this thread is great and this final compromise should please all parties. Thank you Hawkn and Zidders. Hawkn, without your constant trolling I would have probably never thought this far into the no-respec mentality and why I have it. Zidders, without your calmer nicer posts I probably would have just blown up on Hawkn via PM instead of thinkijg rationally.

I defy anyone to say that the solution of having it listed in your character stats doesn't solve the problem. If you disagree I'm sure Hawkn, Zidders, and I would love to jump down your throa- I mean debate with you.

@D1 it's not really that bid a deal if others want people to conform to their will in a computer game... I'm pretty sure you could stay silent, but choose not to, which is good. I'm conditionally converted to a respeccer !

[Zidders]

I really don't care anymore. it's not worth being pissed at people for. Doom, im sorry if I was a douche to you. I can see where it might seem that way.

DEvs, sorry for pouring gasoline on the thread.

Im taking a break from the forum. See everyone when the game comes out.

[adoomgod]

Lol Zidderoo, please re-read the post I made over the one you just posted. I acknowledged your calm, poise, and friendliness as what me tolerate Hawkn"s snarkiness to see the genius tiny solution that should make EVERYBODY (or close) happy.

Don't leave, I need you to be there for the next time me and Hawkn tuffle, otherwise I might just incinerate him in the heat of the moment! Plus, I just, you know, like having you around... :*

[hawkn]

I don't really think I was trolling, unless you think having a different opinion is trolling.

[Zidders]

Hawkn wasn't being snarky, he wasn't trolling. He was venting his frustration with this whole discussion. I'm pretty frustrated with it, too. It's no wonder the devs rarely stick their heads in here anymore or when they do, there's a not so faint hint of exasperation and frustration to their posts. Everyone (including myself) needs to calm down.

At what point has everything that can possibly be discussed about a subject been discussed? In the case of respecs, this is a conversation as old as roleplaying games themselves, and i'm sure every time a new game comes out, someone will ask the inevitable question. "What about respeccing?" Ultimately, we have to remember that we're presenting ideas to Runic. It's their game, their call. They've presented us with a large number of choices, as well. It's not a closed system, like Diablo III. If players aren't happy with the vanilla game (wether it has a respec option or not) they have the ability and tools to change it.

So in the end, it doesn't really matter. And I think that's all Hawkn was saying and all i'm saying. It doesn't really matter. We've known what the compromise is all along.

Torchlight II IS that compromise.

[adoomgod]

Lol now you are starting on purpose.

Hawkn, intentional rudeness is trolling in my book. I do it too sometimes, less now then before but still, so let's not make a big deal out of it.

Sorry if it offended you, I meant it in a whimsical not serious voice which may not come thru in writing.
... We cool? *offers hand*

*edit @ Zidders*

...and if you don't like it, here's a box of tissues for your QQ.

He goes on to jokingly admit his nature is to be a snarky *ss. Lol man, I think I can imagine how you feel right now, and as a friend suggest a stretch, glass of water, and hug. I'm pretty sure me and Hawkn are fine, and this issue has been more or less resolved.

In the No-respec party I think there were only two groups, those that want to enforce that their playstyle is best on others, and those who seek a form of proof and acknowledgment for taking the time to avoid respecs. My new ultimate compromise, edited into my first post and posted on page 5 takes care of the latter group. I'm with D1Tremere when it comes to disregarding a group that wants to enforce a hardcore playstyle on more casual gamers.

Tension dissapates
Hawk, Roo and God take a sigh
Stronger together.

How's that for a Doomku!?

[Alpro]

Glad to see everyone agree, finally. A "number of respec's" stat is simply the best solution, anti-respec'ers feel they accomplish something by getting far in the game without using any, while pro-respec'ers don't give a sh.. about such a meaningless number. Everyone wins for sure. Also glad to see tension go away and everyone can be friends again.

Moving on to the next debate! How, when and where to respec? I'm against potions because you can just carry them around and use them before a boss or something. I know the reached compromise is about not forcing playstyles into each other, but respec'ing must not be allowed anywhere, anytime, otherwise, not only characters become jacks-of-all-trades, they also become masters-of-all. It totally kills the point of even having skill points in the first place and throws the whole idea of builds/specializations through the window. I vote for a button in the skill window that is disabled while not in town. You guys with the big sigs debate and find something so i can appear at the end saying i'm glad we finally agree, alright?

[amb2010]

-snip-

That last bit implies you'll have time to not only use the potion but rebuild your character before getting smashed in the face by a monster Also I doubt you'd ever need to do that in the first place.

I say just have an NPC in a town that'll do it for a fee. If you plan to buy a respec, chances are you want to use it immediately so why bother with a potion that'll go into your bag full of loot. Plus you can make it say "You noob!" so all the die-hard we hate respec and respeccers will be satisfied

As for the compromise...Do people really need that junk? Do people seriously need a marker to throw around in order to feel good about accomplishing something? I'm totally alright with having a marker, don't get me wrong. I just find the whole "I'll allow it as long as I have proof I didn't use it" thing to be rather silly and still rather "I'm better than you"-ish.

[RayBanJockey]

The respec potion mod was the only thing I ever installed in TL1, so I'm all for a built in respec function in TL2. I know you've gotten quite far with this already but if it were entirely up to me, I'd have it like this:

1) Respecs only allowed within your chosen tree/direction (which is chosen when you place your first talent point and is not undoable after lvl 10 or so). So if your summoner suddenly wants to go fireballs instead he can't really, you'd have to reroll.
2) Completely free and repeatable as often you like, as long as point 1 above applies. No point in making it cost gold really, I mean if you need to fine tune your talents why make it a gold issue?
3) You can only do it in town at some long bearded guy with a knobby stick; no potions or means to do it on the fly.

[Morbus]

The Ultimate Respec Compromise!!!

I think this is it folks. Put a not expensive but reasonable price tag on respecs, sell skill and stat respecs separately as 2 different potions, and 1 potion of double price that does both, and have a counter in your stats page that shoes how many times you respecced.

The full refund at a low level juncture offered in my idea in my first post wouldn't count towards the number, and skill points should still be try before you buy. The core rationale behind non-respeccers is that we want to be acknowledged for having built up characters from 1 to 100 without error. So add in the respec counter and we can screenshout our "0" and feel good.

I think this is a great solution. Also, minus (undo) buttons on the skill-up pages like the ones in the stat-up page seem necessary.

[fkl]

seriously all these ideas are nothing new, this is like a millionth thread on this subject and it's hard to say something that is not been said before. and doom I think no matter how much you try to find perfect compromise and consider the problem solved, it's never gonna be solved. I'm with hawkn here, and I said it before, mostly there are people with vast different expectations of the arpg genre. one cares for "action" and other cares for "role-playing". there is no middle point, just a decision to be made.

BUT, on a different note, Zidders made an excellent suggestion that I don't want it to get lost and can be manipulated and changed for something else:

1) lose all experience gained for that level.

thing here is, the want for trying skills before using them, although can be solved with allowing respec, is a different need. and I don't think even one anti-respec person would reject this need. by accepting to lose experience to the moment you gained that skill, you just go back in time. the more time you spent with that skill and failed to detect your mistake the more it's gonna cost you your time. and this not a easy way-out, it's a fix. and it's not a middle-point, it a new end-point for anti-respec front. (or at least that's what I think )

[adoomgod]

@fkl

Lol reread my first post. The ultimate solution is just having a number of respecs stat represented in the miscellaneous stats tab. This keeps a badge of honor feeling for people who don't use respecs, and people who do respec don't care.

This solution in of itself is simply acknowledging the truth as the truth. A single line with a changing number at the end, the ultimate compromise, or should I say peace treaty?

[D1Tremere]

Mechanically I have no problems with this compromise, I simply fail to see a need for it other then to appease those who find value in convincing others they played a video game in a longer and more tedious manner then most. If it makes them happy and allows us to respec without mods I'm all for it, one could argue the stats page is all about keeping score any way and something like this belongs there.