TL2 DRM

[Chthon]

I do not like DRM. I am willing to tolerate non-invasive DRM to a degree, but I draw the line at certain practices. No matter how great a game is, I won't buy it if the DRM is too invasive. TL1 made me happy because the boxed copy had no DRM (although it did have some obnoxious adware (RealConnect/Datalode) ). I was planning on buying a boxed copy of TL2 on the assumption that it too would be DRM-free. But now I read that there won't be a boxed copy of TL2 in North America. So, I think I'd better ask about the DRM on the direct digital download version, hadn't I?

Hey, Runic, mind telling us some specifics about the DRM on TL2's direct digital download version?
In particular, could you address each of the criteria below?

In my opinion, the following types of DRM are unacceptable:

• 1. DRM that alters the operating system, including:
  
  • Modifying my hardware drivers (f--- you, starforce! );
  • Modifying my OS files;
  • Hiding files somewhere on my system outside of the obvious and clearly-named directory I installed it to (f--- you, trymedia! ); and
  • Hiding registry entries outside of an obvious and clearly-named directory (unless the OS itself requires an obscure location), for example fake CLSID entries.
• 2. DRM that is not completely removed when the game is uninstalled. It is unforgivable to leave behind any files or reg entries. (f--- you, securerom )
• 3. DRM that runs certain kinds of background tasks:
  
  • Any background task that tries to run on start-up, or at any other time when the game itself is not running, is unforgivable.
  • Any background task that tries to examine/monitor/modify/delete/terminate any files or processes outside of the game itself is unforgivable. (Querying the OS about the OS/hardware through the OS's standard API is acceptable.)
  • Any other kind of background task will be met with extreme skepticism and distaste, even if it's not one of the two unforgivable types above.
• 4. DRM that requires the physical disc to run, unless I can make a backup copy of the disc. (I actually wore out my D2 expansion disc...)
• 5. Except for games that are inherently online-only anyway (such as MMOs), DRM that:
  
  • Requires a constant internet connection; or
  • Depends upon the operator of some server (ex: Steam) remaining in business indefinitely in order for the game to run.
• 6. DRM that is going to prevent me from re-installing the game if...
  
  • ...Without warning, a lightning strike toasts my hard drive and several hardware components, so I need to make a fresh install on a modified hardware setup (and this happens a dozen times during the course of my interest in the game); or
  • ...Without warning, a lightning strike (that's better at its job then the previous one) completely reduces my PC to slag, so I need to buy a whole new PC (and this happens a dozen times during the course of my interest in the game)
• 7. DRM that malfunctions and leaves the game inoperable. (Examples: Disc check that just doesn't work on some hardware; "Packed"/self-modifying executable that gets corrupted easily.) Since malfunctioning DRM means that a customer doesn't get what they paid for, the error tolerance here is pretty near zero.

So, what's TL2's DRM going to look like on the direct digital download version? Is it going to live up to my hopes of not being unacceptably invasive?

(Mostly I'm looking for a response from Runic with this thread, but everyone else can feel free to comment on how I'm being unreasonable to demand this degree of noninvasiveness from DRM; or that I've forgotten to include some form of unacceptably invasive DRM on my list; or all DRM is evil; or the world needs strong DRM because online pirates are a bunch of communist fascists with WMD out to destroy Mom, America, and apple pie; or whatever else you happen to be thinking.)

-----

(On a side note that you can tuck away for future use with the TL-MMO: I think you should imitate Guild Wars' DRM because their system is just about perfect for games that are inherently online. Boxed and direct download purchases come with a "CD Key" (well, "Key," since the physical media is a DVD and the direct downloads don't have physical media). During account creation, you enter the Key and the client sends it to the server for authentication. The Key gets bound to your online account rather than your computer, so you can play the game from any computer. This is about as close to uninvasive as DRM can get, and also pretty hard to circumvent. (Cracking the client is impossible since there's no authentication code there to crack. Sandboxing the client and spoofing its environment are similarly pointless. The only viable attack I can think of is a crypto attack to find a keygen algorithm.))

[pothb]

in all likelihood, there won't be one.

[amb2010]

I'm assuming at most it'll use the same system TL1 used, a simple CD key or something equally acceptable.

[Chthon]

I'm assuming at most it'll use the same system TL1 used, a simple CD key or something equally acceptable.

There's a lot of ways to implement a CD Key on the backend. Some of these are acceptable, some aren't.

[Syl]

You can play Torchlight on Linux, I guess the DRM is pretty light if there's one.
You can also buy it on Steam.

[Chthon]

You can play Torchlight on Linux, I guess the DRM is pretty light if there's one.
You can also buy it on Steam.

The question is directed at TL2.

[DarkTails]

I heard Runic is going to make you pay for a separate activation key, they won't give you one when you buy the game.

They're also going to limit your playtime to 20 minutes a day for your own good.

Finally, they're going to require THREE CD ROM drives to play the game. And the game will know if you're trying to fool it with virtual drives, it will then contact the authorities and send all data on your computer to them.

[amb2010]

I'm assuming at most it'll use the same system TL1 used, a simple CD key or something equally acceptable.

There's a lot of ways to implement a CD Key on the backend. Some of these are acceptable, some aren't.

I just read your wall of text for the do's and don'ts for you to find DRM acceptable and I must say, you really don't tolerate a lot O_O I'm of the opinion no DRM is silly but spyware-equivalent DRM is overkill though so take that comment with a grain of salt.

Anyways, Torchlight had a limited use key, at least I recall people saying so. I personally have re-installed more times than I can bother trying to remember and have yet to run into that. Considering TL2 will be using a game account type deal for online, I'm assuming a CD-key will be involved as well, perhaps an old b.net style "add code, can't go online if key is in use already" type deal. I highly doubt Runic would jump ship from relatively limited DRM to full blown Ubisoft and EA DRM so I really think you're concerns are misplaced.

Hopefully a Dev can find some time to respond though to quell that concern but don't get your hopes up, they tend to be relatively busy and small things such as this tend to get passed for more important things (which is why no one knows any specifics about DRM right now). I say small, not because DRM isn't a big deal but because people knowing what kind of DRM is being used doesn't really matter until near release.

[Zidders]

(On a side note that you can tuck away for future use with the TL-MMO: I think you should imitate Guild Wars' DRM because their system is just about perfect for games that are inherently online. Boxed and direct download purchases come with a "CD Key" (well, "Key," since the physical media is a DVD and the direct downloads don't have physical media). During account creation, you enter the Key and the client sends it to the server for authentication. The Key gets bound to your online account rather than your computer, so you can play the game from any computer. This is about as close to uninvasive as DRM can get, and also pretty hard to circumvent. (Cracking the client is impossible since there's no authentication code there to crack. Sandboxing the client and spoofing its environment are similarly pointless. The only viable attack I can think of is a crypto attack to find a keygen algorithm.))

The odds are pretty good that this might be what they're intending. Like Amb said, we won't know until very close to release. Still, you might get a reply. Never know with these folks, hehe.

As far as this;
"(Mostly I'm looking for a response from Runic with this thread, but everyone else can feel free to comment on how I'm being unreasonable to demand this degree of noninvasiveness from DRM; or that I've forgotten to include some form of unacceptably invasive DRM on my list; or all DRM is evil; or the world needs strong DRM because online pirates are a bunch of communist fascists with WMD out to destroy Mom, America, and apple pie; or whatever else you happen to be thinking.)

I was mainly thinking 'Fair question' but now I want pie

[Omnifas]

Brian has answered the DRM in TL2 question, here:

You can always email us if you run out of activation attempts (I don't think we've settled on a final number yet, but 10 seemed to work fine for Torchlight I) and we can reset your account within reason (reason meaning that it's probably not likely that a person is reinstalling 1,000 times in the span of a week). Personally, I think Steam tends to be best in the sense that you can always install your games on as many machines as you want, but everyone has different needs. We did, however, offer the original game on an un-DRM'd retail disc (available from Encore in the US and others internationally).

We have no plans at this time to offer the downloadable version of either Torchlight or Torchlight II without DRM. The reason why Torchlight is DRM'd is because the demo is basically the full game which can then be unlocked with your key after purchasing. We chose to do this was because then it's easiest for the player to continue on with the character they created while playing the demo. No word yet on if we're going to do a physical box in the US.

We're generally pretty sympathetic to issues relating to electronic civil liberties around here. As long as you can provide an invoice ID (always viewable through PayPal or Google Checkout) or even an email from the purchasing address, we'll always provide you with your key or help you with resetting your account. I hope that helps!

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=21558&p=192727&hilit=activation#p192727

So far it seems like for SP it'll use TL1's DRM of Demo/One time Online Activation per install. For MP they have hinted that the matchmaking server will be tied to the Runic Account system somehow.

[Zidders]

*snip* Thanks omni!

[pothb]

I'm assuming at most it'll use the same system TL1 used, a simple CD key or something equally acceptable.

There's a lot of ways to implement a CD Key on the backend. Some of these are acceptable, some aren't.

I just read your wall of text for the do's and don'ts for you to find DRM acceptable and I must say, you really don't tolerate a lot O_O I'm of the opinion no DRM is silly but spyware-equivalent DRM is overkill though so take that comment with a grain of salt.

That's hardly a wall of text, since it seems to be pretty well organized.

In any case, I find what he's said to be as it should be. All are pretty valid points. It's unfortunate that media is so protected that it's virtually unplayable, without a great deal of annoyances.

But I forget, that a CD-key "like" system can be considered DRM, as I have always thought it was acceptable. I also think Requiring a CD to play is pretty acceptable, though I did wear out my D2 Expansion disc myself and had to use an iso to play, after the fact.

[amb2010]

Great formatting or not, it's still a wall-o-text in my book. I consider a post that fills up pretty much the entire screen (1920x1080, 21.5" monitor) to be a wall of text regardless of indents and it being a bulleted list It most certainly isn't a bad thing nor was it meant to criticize him/her (in fact if only more posts were that well formatted), I just said it because I was strapped for time and skimmed it when I originally posted and decided to follow up with some more stuff.

[Webbstre]

Gonna skip all the in-between posts and just respond to the OP:

It's likely TL2's DRM will be very similar to Torchlight 1's (if you bought it digitally directly from Runic): The full game is the demo, and inserting your key will unlock the game. Typically you get 10 unlocks, but you can EASILY request more by sending an e-mail to Brian/Customer Service. Also, the online match making will be tied somehow into your Runic account, but that's not extra software, just another login you have to remember.

[Risingsun]

There is also going to be some DRM variations based on where you buy the game. Steam uses the basic login system tied to your account and Runic has activations( about 10 per key, with requests for refills).
I'm not quite sure what the DRM is on the german and russian boxes and no clue where else the game will be sold digitally and with what restrictions.

I do know that If the game is put on the Amazon Download store, you can reinstall as many time as you want, while Amazon uses the DRM decided on by the publisher, since the game is tied your Amazon account if you run out Amazon will just give your more CD keys, similar to what runic does.

If the game is put on the Mac App Store, you can re-download and install the game on all of your Macs. The little DRM that is there, just requires you to sign in with your Apple ID to redownload it or when transferring an application to a new computer you own.

BUT the interesting thing is that you actually don't have to include any DRM on software you distribute through the Mac App Store. Apple's own iWork apps, Popcaps games, Hot Head Games, and many inde developers apps/games are all DRM free and require no Apple ID check when moving files to your other computers which is fantastic. This is why I prefer this store for my Mac Software, DRM isn't required but when its there its not too much of a hassel. The less DRM the better.

[DarkTails]

I heard that when you open the TL2 retail box a toxic snake jumps out and bites your hand, then the only way to get the anti-venom is to purchase an activation code.

[Zidders]

Spoiler: show

[wolfmane]

Mine was an Egyptian Asp. I heard some lucky people got a rare Black Mamba.

[Jackalhead]

lol They don't need DRM. Anyone who would steal a game with this much value when all they are asking is $20 must be SERIOUSLY broke.

[Chthon]

Brian has answered the DRM in TL2 question, here:

You can always email us if you run out of activation attempts (I don't think we've settled on a final number yet, but 10 seemed to work fine for Torchlight I) and we can reset your account within reason (reason meaning that it's probably not likely that a person is reinstalling 1,000 times in the span of a week). Personally, I think Steam tends to be best in the sense that you can always install your games on as many machines as you want, but everyone has different needs. We did, however, offer the original game on an un-DRM'd retail disc (available from Encore in the US and others internationally).

We have no plans at this time to offer the downloadable version of either Torchlight or Torchlight II without DRM. The reason why Torchlight is DRM'd is because the demo is basically the full game which can then be unlocked with your key after purchasing. We chose to do this was because then it's easiest for the player to continue on with the character they created while playing the demo. No word yet on if we're going to do a physical box in the US.

We're generally pretty sympathetic to issues relating to electronic civil liberties around here. As long as you can provide an invoice ID (always viewable through PayPal or Google Checkout) or even an email from the purchasing address, we'll always provide you with your key or help you with resetting your account. I hope that helps!

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=21558&p=192727&hilit=activation#p192727

So far it seems like for SP it'll use TL1's DRM of Demo/One time Online Activation per install. For MP they have hinted that the matchmaking server will be tied to the Runic Account system somehow.

That's very helpful, but not quite detailed enough. Different implementations of activation checks run the gamut from totally acceptable to totally unacceptable.

I heard that when you open the TL2 retail box a toxic snake jumps out and bites your hand, then the only way to get the anti-venom is to purchase an activation code.

Hmmm... You think I should add that to the list of unacceptably invasive DRM methods?