PAX East 2012 News, Infos, Videos, Screenshots...

[adoomgod]

OH GOD I CAN'T RESIST!

https://twitter.com/#!/RunicGames/statu ... 69/photo/1

Max, did .... (can't believe I'm doing this) .... did it uh... work out in the end? Did.... did you give her a tour of your "Developer room"/bachelor pad?


This is completely inappropriate. And I know Max, you are a good chivalrous man.
I'm sorry all women on this forum... I just can't help but look at her expression and imagine she's thinking, "You can stop talking and marry me!"

*edit* I've been resisting posting this since the picture was put on this thread. So pretty good right?

[jamesL]

Another, not-so-good thought that comes to mind is that this renders the DPS display on weapons pretty much useless. Unless you've got zero focus or as much focus as strength, a direct comparison of the DPS values shown on weapons is going to be really misleading whenever the weapons being compared have different amounts of magical damage.

Dual wielding - if you dual wield, each weapon attacks at its own rate, so if you have a very slow weapon in one hand and a fast one in the other, then overall, you're going to get an averaged DPS between the two, but each one should attack at its given rate. If you performed 10 strikes w/ a slow weapon, then 10 strikes w/ a fast weapon, vs dual wielding a slow weapon and a fast weapon for 20 strikes, you should have equivalent DPS ( if no execute was involved ). With Execute, you'll sometimes get a strike with both weapons at once for double DPS, effectively, which is great advantage to dual wielding.

The underlined sentence is impossible. If each weapon were attacking at its own rate, then your final DPS would be the sum of the DPS from each weapon, not the average.

Consider also that no one in their right mind would ever dual wield if they knew they were getting the average DPS.* The average of your best sword in your right hand and your second best sword in your left hand is always going to be lower than your best sword in your right hand and nothing at all in your left hand. Even if you have two copies of your best sword, dual wielding would still be always worse than using a shield, since the shield benefits you while the average of the same sword twice is no better than just one copy. (Minor exception if the sword has a really, really awesome mod that will carry over across hands so that it doubles up.)

Skills that inflict DPS do just that - take the DPS value of the weapon instead of the direct damage. We generally do this when the rate of attack of the skill is not modified by your weapon's speed, but still uses its damage, to keep things balanced.

since skills take the DPS value of weapons then how is the DPS value on weapons rendered useless ?
the more DPS a weapon has, the more damage a skill does, so comparing weapon DPS essentially compares skill damage

why is the underlined sentence impossible ?
why isn't it the average ?
don't you alternate hands when you dual wield ? so you're hitting with one weapon 1/2 the time and the other weapon the other 1/2
so if the R handed weapon does 100 DPS and the L handed weapon does 200 DPS and each weapon strikes once per second, then in 2 seconds you've striked once with each weapon, for a total of 300 / 2 seconds or an average of 150 per second ? not a sum of 300 right ? or am I misunderstanding something ?

in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpXQO76bjrY around 5:47, Max said when you dual wield you have a chance to do an Exceute attack, where you attack with both weapons at once, so that would be a sum and an advantage to dual wielding

[JamusT]

That raises another question, however, if its not final does that mean that skin tone may move to its own separate slider depending on if you have time?[/quote]

I don't make these decisions and of course nothing is final but i'm going to say super highly unlikely. We tried to give a few variants per skin tone but the faces are painted the on the skins. So as of right now to make it so you could match skin tones we would have to repaint each face for each new skin tone... Which would be a fair amount of work. More likely we would prefer make new skin and face variants instead to give more variety as opposed to color shifting art. Plus one of the things we tried to do was actually paint our new skins with more ethnic diversity than many games offer, in that I think we were pretty successful and not overly stereotypical or generic like many games now days.it's by no means perfect, but we want to give people more choices they can identify with, and compared to tl1 I think people will be happy with the new options.

That would be nice to have them seperate. I hate to admit, but I get jumpy if I can't get customizations right for my character.[/quote]

[Zidders]

Doom, you're such a dumbass sometimes >.<

[Risingsun]

That raises another question, however, if its not final does that mean that skin tone may move to its own separate slider depending on if you have time?

I don't make these decisions and of course nothing is final but i'm going to say super highly unlikely. We tried to give a few variants per skin tone but the faces are painted the on the skins. So as of right now to make it so you could match skin tones we would have to repaint each face for each new skin tone... Which would be a fair amount of work. More likely we would prefer make new skin and face variants instead to give more variety as opposed to color shifting art. Plus one of the things we tried to do was actually paint our new skins with more ethnic diversity than many games offer, in that I think we were pretty successful and not overly stereotypical or generic like many games now days.it's by no means perfect, but we want to give people more choices they can identify with, and compared to tl1 I think people will be happy with the new options.

That would be nice to have them seperate. I hate to admit, but I get jumpy if I can't get customizations right for my character.

Ahh, thanks for the answer. Great insight into the process and design decisions. Now that I understand "the why" I can say that I'm pretty happy that you guys are using that approach over generic faces and sliders. Very cool and from what I have seen so far you guys have succeeded on creating types people can identify with.

[amb2010]

(quotes would be too long)

@Chthon: It's not the average of each weapon, but the average of both weapons added together. As jamesL says, if you have 2 weapons:R=200DPS and L=100 every 2 seconds you deal 300 and therefore 150DPS, the average of both weapons together. So yes, instead of dealing 200DPS if you had just used the best weapon, you deal 150DPS which is less but with executes you can end up dealing 300DPS occasionally. Throw in various skills that take advantage of dual wielding and then you no longer have a disadvantage really.

@jamesL: If the statement is true, you don't attack alternately but simply not at the same time. If you attacked alternately then you'd not be attacking at each weapons own speed but at the slowest weapons speed. For example R=200DPS but attacks once per 2 seconds (so 400 a hit) and L=100DPS and attacks once per second. If you attacked alternately you end up swinging R-L,R-L,R-L since in order to swing L, you'd have to wait every 2 seconds to swing R. That ends up being 400+100 damage per 2 seconds, or 250DPS. Now to attack at their own speeds it should be R-L-L,R-L-L,R-L-L which would be 400+100+100 per 2 seconds or 300DPS since you swing L twice for every time you swing R.

Now is that right? I'm not entirely sure since it ends up doing more damage than if you weren't dual wielding (which is technically what dual wielding should do) but doesn't seem to actually be what you guys are aiming for since you want equivalent DPS between duel wielding and not duelwielding. Either way some more clarification couldn't hurt.

(I may have just butchered the mechanic and math though)

[jamesL]

...

https://twitter.com/#!/RunicGames/statu ... 69/photo/1
...

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game ... ght-2.html

I can't stop watching this video
Max's eyes just look so big

and at 0:28, Max's turns and looks at the "co host"
it's just so silly

[Seer]

That raises another question, however, if its not final does that mean that skin tone may move to its own separate slider depending on if you have time?

I don't make these decisions and of course nothing is final but i'm going to say super highly unlikely. We tried to give a few variants per skin tone but the faces are painted the on the skins. So as of right now to make it so you could match skin tones we would have to repaint each face for each new skin tone... Which would be a fair amount of work. More likely we would prefer make new skin and face variants instead to give more variety as opposed to color shifting art. Plus one of the things we tried to do was actually paint our new skins with more ethnic diversity than many games offer, in that I think we were pretty successful and not overly stereotypical or generic like many games now days.it's by no means perfect, but we want to give people more choices they can identify with, and compared to tl1 I think people will be happy with the new options.

That would be nice to have them seperate. I hate to admit, but I get jumpy if I can't get customizations right for my character.[/quote][/quote]


Ah I understand now. Skin tons lock you in specific face choices, so that the facial features naturally correspond to the traits commonly found in people with the specific tones.

[Kukuku]

I can't stop watching this video
Max's eyes just look so big

and at 0:28, Max's turns and looks at the "co host"
it's just so silly

He was probably waiting for her to go "SSSsssssSSSsssssssssss" so that he could make a run for it.

[Chthon]

since skills take the DPS value of weapons then how is the DPS value on weapons rendered useless ?
the more DPS a weapon has, the more damage a skill does, so comparing weapon DPS essentially compares skill damage

1. This has nothing to do with skills in particular. The problem will exist across the board.
2. The problem is that the weapon DPS display does not reflect the fact that different damage types will have very different multipliers.
3. An example may help:
Imagine you have 200 strength and 100 focus. Further imagine that you are presented with an choice between two swords. One says "100DPS." The other says "90DPS." Which would you choose? Probably the one that says "100DPS," right? Well, it was the wrong choice. If you look at the smaller text, the "100DPS" swords says "100 physical damage, 1 sec attack interval"; and the "90DPS" sword says "45 physical damage, 45 fire damage, 1 sec attack interval." After applying your strength bonus, the "100DPS" sword will do 200 damage each second. What about the "90DPS" sword? Depending upon whether the strength and focus bonuses stack additively or multiplicatively, it will either do 202.5 or 225 damage each second. In either case, the weapon with the lower DPS displayed actually does more base damage in practice. Thus, the DPS display on the weapons was so misleading as to be worthless.

why is the underlined sentence impossible ?
why isn't it the average ?
don't you alternate hands when you dual wield ? so you're hitting with one weapon 1/2 the time and the other weapon the other 1/2
so if the R handed weapon does 100 DPS and the L handed weapon does 200 DPS and each weapon strikes once per second, then in 2 seconds you've striked once with each weapon, for a total of 300 / 2 seconds or an average of 150 per second ? not a sum of 300 right ? or am I misunderstanding something ?

1. It's impossible because it's internally inconsistent. You can average DPS or you can have "each weapon attack[] at its own rate," but there's no way to do both.
2. You seem to be confusing DPS -- damage per second -- with damage per hit. (With a correct dual wielding implementation, overall DPS should be the sum of both weapons' DPSs and overall average damage per hit should be a weighted average of both weapons' damage per hit. (See #3 for why it must be a weighted average.)
3. Assuming Travis was correct in saying "each weapon attacks at its own rate," you do NOT alternate hands unless your weapons have the same attack speed. Imagine one weapon that attacks once per second and another that attacks once every four seconds -- would they alternate? Obviously not. (At least not in real life. TL1 gets it wrong.)
4. If, as you say, "each weapon strikes once per second," then, in 2 seconds you would strike TWICE with each weapon, not once.
5. You've put me in a position where I'm trying to justify some very fundamental mathematics, which is quite tricky. Imagine being asked to prove that 1 does not equal 0 without being able to say "look, 1 obviously does not equal 0." (Don't feel bad -- it may be fundamental, but it's not necessarily intuitive -- Runic got it wrong in TL1 after all.)
6. This is one way that might make it intuitively clearer for you: Imagine there are two people in your game. Each has a sword and shield combo. Each is attacking at their own attack rate according to the weapon they have. One is doing 100DPS. The other is doing 80DPS. They are on a team. How much total DPS is the team doing? 180DPS, right? You just add them together and take the sum. Easy enough.
Now, if instead of two people, there are two hands on one person, is anything going to be different? The answer should be "no." Total DPS should be the sum in both cases.
7. This is another way that might help make it intuitively clearer: Imagine you have a sword in your right hand and nothing in the left. Your sword does 10 damage per hit, and attacks once per second. How much total damage will you do in 10 seconds? 100 damage. What's your DPS? 10DPS. Now, imagine that you have a "rather pathetic magic pebble of slowness" in your left hand. It does 10 damage per hit, and attacks once every 10 seconds. How much total damage will the pebble do in 10 seconds? 10 damage. What's the pebble's DPS? 1DPS. So, now, what's your overall damage done in 10 seconds? 110 damage. (10 damage for each of 10 sword swings, plus 10 damage for one pebble attack.) What's your overall DPS? 11DPS. Which is the sum of your weapons' DPSs.
(If you're having trouble picturing this, ACT IT OUT. Go up to a whiteboard with a red (10 damage, 1 sec attack interval) marker in your right hand and a green (10 damage, 10 sec attack interval) marker in your left hand, and swing them at the board -- the red marker once per second, the green marker once per 10 sec -- for 10 sec. Then count the marks you made. You will find 10 red and one green. Which jives with what I jut said above.)

Which comes back to the issue at hand (sorry pun): A correct dual wielding implementation will give you an overall DPS that is the sum of both weapons' DPSs. Runic got it wrong in TL1. I'm bringing it up because I really, really want to see it done right in TL2. (And I'm bringing it up a second time because Travis's internally inconsistent statement didn't inspire confidence.)

What appears to have happened in TL1 is that they forced you to alternate hands -- probably to make it easier to animate. This slows down both weapons because each hand is left idle while the other is attacking. (Instead of "attack, attack, attack, attack...," each hand now goes "attack, wait, attack, wait...") So it's not true (in TL1) that "each weapon attacks at its own rate." The final attack interval for each weapon is equal to the sum of the attack intervals of both weapons -- which means half speed if the other weapon has the same attack interval. (Otherwise, the faster weapon slows down more and the slowdowns on both weapons average to half speed overall.)

So....

The "really, really right way" to implement dual wielding is to let each arm swing totally independently (no forcing alternation), thereby removing the idle periods.

A "mostly right way" to implement it would be to do it like TL1, but add 100% speed boost to correct half speed back up to full speed. (See TL1 mod that does exactly that.) This implementation gets the math right, so it's balanced, but the animation isn't quite right. (Instead of "attack, attack, attack, attack...," each hand goes "super_fast_attack, wait, super_fast_attack, wait...")

in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpXQO76bjrY around 5:47, Max said when you dual wield you have a chance to do an Exceute attack, where you attack with both weapons at once, so that would be a sum and an advantage to dual wielding

Unless execute does so much damage that it makes up for missing half the DPS you're supposed to have, it won't fix the problem. Even then, execute costs points in focus. You shouldn't have to sink resources to get back something you should have had in the first place.

[ThomasJ]

Other than the release date, do we have a feature that has yet been unannounced ?

[xani]

So....

The "really, really right way" to implement dual wielding is to let each arm swing totally independently (no forcing alternation), thereby removing the idle periods.

Somewhere there is character animator that after reading that wants to harm you very badly
If you would try to animate it it would look pretty funny but very unrealistic, especially if you would use similiar (but not same) speed weapons.
how I would do that (in animation i mean) is to start 2 timers, one for each weapon who go like:

Code: Select all

(imagine one char is 0.2s, | is animation start, # is animation time )
W1(1.0)----|#--|#--|#--|#--|#--|#--|#--|#--|#-
W2(1.2)-----|#---|#---|#---|#---|#---|#---|#---


or

Code: Select all

W1(1.4)-------|#-----|#-----|#-----|#-----|#-----|#-----|#-----|#-----|#-----
W2(3)  ---------------|##------------|##------------|##------------|##------------


and animate "single weapon attack" when mark is only on one line, and double weapon attack when weapon swings would overlap. It wouldn't be exact on animation (but displaying numbers could ) but it look better than robot dance of independly moving hands ;]

Unless execute does so much damage that it makes up for missing half the DPS you're supposed to have, it won't fix the problem. Even then, execute costs points in focus. You shouldn't have to sink resources to get back something you should have had in the first place.

That depends how in comparision 2H weapons will be, if they will be plain 2xDPS then y, if less maybe not

[Brixtan]

Other than the release date, do we have a feature that has yet been unannounced ?

We don't have a release date - FYI.

[jamesL]

well, I'm just gioing to have to keep disagreeing with you because I think weapon DPS is strictly to compare weapons, I don't think it has anything to do with how much damage you're actually doing

as you said, the actual amt of damage you're doing depends on what your stats are and what other modifiers you have
which does more DPS ? a golf club or a sledge hammer ?
in real life if you have very little strength, then the sledge hammer will do zero DPS, because you won't be able to pick it up and swing it
so the golf club is the better weapon to equip, but if the opponent has LOTS of armor, then the golf club will do zero DPS too

they're are just too many variables

sure, they could change the DPS displayed on the weapon every time you put another point in strength or everytime you put on an item that says +x damage, but I don't think that's what weapon DPS is for
I think there is a difference between weapon DPS and char DPS
I think DPS on the weapon is an inherit "on average" measure of which is the better weapon, but it's not a measure that changes with every variable and circumstance, that would be the char DPS
if you want to know how much damage your char is actually doing then you have to look at the journal http://www.runicgamesfansite.com/news/4 ... urnal.html or character sheet
maybe the DPS on the journal or character sheet shows the actual DPS your char is doing

and I still think that since some skills are based on weapon DPS that DPS is a great indicator of which weapon to choose

for some skills you aren't going to care how much strength or focus you have, you're not going to be swinging that weapon anyway, you're just going to hold to power your skill

and when Travis was talking about "own rate" I think he was responding to your question that if the weapon in the R hand had 15% IAS and the weapon in the L hand had 15% IAS then wouldn't both weapons have 30% IAS, and he said no, each weapon has its own rate: each only gets the 15% that is on it

maybe you're right that a "correct" implementation of dual wielding would be one where each hand acts as if it were "singly wielding" so that if one weapon normally did 3 hits per second and another weapon normally did 4 hits per second, then when you dual wield you do 7 hits per second
but I just don't think that's how its going to work

even in Diablo 3 they're doing some funky thinks with dual wielding
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4217494236
D3:

When you dual wield you get a 15% attack speed bonus, but you also alternate between weapons. This means if you have two of the exact same weapons dual wielding will do 15% more damage than 1hand and shield, or a 2hander of the same dps.

and with D3, if you equip a weapon with high DPS and another with low DPS then your char's average DPS is lower than if it used only the high DPS, but it offsets this drawback by increasing the attack speed of each swing when dual wielding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vke_bm42 ... 7PC015E%3D

It doesn't sound like TL2 is going to do dual wielding the "correct way" and they're not going to give an attack speed bonus like D3 does

Dual wielding - if you dual wield, each weapon attacks at its own rate, so if you have a very slow weapon in one hand and a fast one in the other, then overall, you're going to get an averaged DPS between the two, but each one should attack at its given rate. If you performed 10 strikes w/ a slow weapon, then 10 strikes w/ a fast weapon, vs dual wielding a slow weapon and a fast weapon for 20 strikes, you should have equivalent DPS ( if no execute was involved ). With Execute, you'll sometimes get a strike with both weapons at once for double DPS, effectively, which is great advantage to dual wielding.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22619&p=205426&hilit=focus#p205426

I think Execute is the only bonus for dual wielding. Where did you read that Execute is going to cost Focus ?
It sounds like a built in passive to me.

Maybe TL2 will have a skill that gives dual wielding more bonuses ?

[jamesL]

Other than the release date, do we have a feature that has yet been unannounced ?

do we know much about enchanting ?
we heard about the "pet shopping list", but I'd like to see it
the lobby for searching for games ?
I know its not much, but I'd like to know more about the "chat". Can you filter it ? Can you add tabs ?
I heard you can't trade by dropping things on the ground. I'd like to know more about the trading system.
I guess these aren't big features, more like little details, but I'd still like to know

[wolfmane]

That depends how in comparision 2H weapons will be, if they will be plain 2xDPS then y, if less maybe not

Keep in mind that there are additional mechanics involved to create differences in weapon selection. The Execution attack (attacking with both weapons at the same time) is a parallel to the AOE Splash Damage properties that two handed weapons have. This complicates attempts to calculate and compare 2h damage versus 1h or dual wield damage output.

Whatever the case I hope that we can get some more clarification on the dual wield and execute subject.

I think he meant that Focus, as a stat, increases the chance to perform an execute attack. I also think there were hints that there were some Berserker skills that increased Execute chance.

[Brixtan]

That depends how in comparision 2H weapons will be, if they will be plain 2xDPS then y, if less maybe not

Keep in mind that there are additional mechanics involved to create differences in weapon selection. The Execution attack (attacking with both weapons at the same time) is a parallel to the AOE Splash Damage properties that two handed weapons have. This complicates attempts to calculate and compare 2h damage versus 1h or dual wield damage output.

Whatever the case I hope that we can get some more clarification on the dual wield and execute subject.

I think he meant that Focus, as a stat, increases the chance to perform an execute attack. I also think there were hints that there were some Berserker skills that increased Execute chance.

A bit off track, but popped into my head. One simple way to help balance (or to give players an incentive to use) 2h weapons would be to have unique affixes that can only be found on 2h/mighty weapons.

EX: Earthen Affix "on hit: slows all enemy attacks by 20% within 5 yards"

[Chthon]

So....

The "really, really right way" to implement dual wielding is to let each arm swing totally independently (no forcing alternation), thereby removing the idle periods.

Somewhere there is character animator that after reading that wants to harm you very badly

I don't doubt it. Nonetheless, that is still the correct answer in terms of realism (to the limited extent that's important) and balance.

Unless execute does so much damage that it makes up for missing half the DPS you're supposed to have, it won't fix the problem. Even then, execute costs points in focus. You shouldn't have to sink resources to get back something you should have had in the first place.

That depends how in comparision 2H weapons will be, if they will be plain 2xDPS then y, if less maybe not

Forget about 2H for a minute. The problem with the TL1's implementation is that 1H+shield always beats dual wielding 2x the same 1H weapon. The fact that 2H also tends to be superior is a problem on top of a problem.

maybe you're right that a "correct" implementation of dual wielding would be one where each hand acts as if it were "singly wielding" so that if one weapon normally did 3 hits per second and another weapon normally did 4 hits per second, then when you dual wield you do 7 hits per second
but I just don't think that's how its going to work

even in Diablo 3 they're doing some funky thinks with dual wielding

Yes, that is funky. It strikes me as an unprincipled compromise at best.

Where did you read that Execute is going to cost Focus ?

It's in the gamespot video.

do we know much about enchanting ?

Only what was in the gamespot video. See my post on page 10.

Keep in mind that there are additional mechanics involved to create differences in weapon selection. The Execution attack (attacking with both weapons at the same time) is a parallel to the AOE Splash Damage properties that two handed weapons have. This complicates attempts to calculate and compare 2h damage versus 1h or dual wield damage output.

Whatever the case I hope that we can get some more clarification on the dual wield and execute subject.

I guess I must have missed the splash damage on 2H weapons announcement. Anyone have a link?

[Trotim]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but there needs to be a more distinct effect when your charge bar is filled and activates. Likewise while charge is active there needs to be an obvious way to see when it will end, probably simply the meter slowly going back down.

[xani]

So....

The "really, really right way" to implement dual wielding is to let each arm swing totally independently (no forcing alternation), thereby removing the idle periods.

Somewhere there is character animator that after reading that wants to harm you very badly

I don't doubt it. Nonetheless, that is still the correct answer in terms of realism (to the limited extent that's important) and balance.

I'm just saying it have to look good or at least decent first, you can always tweak mechanic in backend, like you could "desynchonize" weapon swing a bit to have smoother animations, just have to do a lil' bit of math so end DPS will stay same.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but there needs to be a more distinct effect when your charge bar is filled and activates. Likewise while charge is active there needs to be an obvious way to see when it will end, probably simply the meter slowly going back down.

I think that critting every hit or running as mad ferret is enougth of a indicator