Could TL2 theoretically be hacked into allowing WASD play?

[nnezz]

You can't move and attack at the same time anyway. So any comfort you'd get from WASD is moot since you aren't really solving a problem.

For me, it would still be much more comfortable Even if I have to stop moving to shoot/attack, I still gain the comfort of being able to hold the cursor over/near the enemies instead of playing tennis with it.
As far as playing tennis with my fingers, hardly. They merely tap up and down, while I would have to swing the mouse back and forth a lot.

The game could be programmed to simply stop movement any time an attack is used. Case solved. Everyone is happy. Well, not everyone. There are some people who would hate for anyone else to get any kind of other control scheme or customization. Weird but true.

I'd wager it's not as simple as assigning keys to constant directional pathing and then checking for one or two cases of collisions.

Well, I'd love to hear in detail what the problem might be then. If you stop when attacking, the game would play EXACTLY the same, except you move with the keys instead of the mouse. Really, it isn't deeper than that.

Collisions would be the same. Whether you play with WASD or mouse pathing, that system would be the same. Ensuring you don't co-exist in the same space as another item. Yes, some minor details would be different, but certainly not unsurmountable by a talented team like Runic.

That's "the big problem", and I think you're really underestimating it. Asking Runic to change how the game works on such a fundamental level at this point in development is absurd.

Not really. New features get patched into games all the time, even post release.

"The big problem" is one of willingness. How far are they willing to cater to their fan base? What is considered a major issue and what is considered minor. I suspect this control issue is considered minor since only a minority of people are vocal about it. Thus it is not a priority. Fair enough, as long as people are willing to say that. "We will not implement this because only a minority of people care about it, or realize the benefit to it." That's the kind of talk I respect. Using vague technical reasons is not really anything I can respect. Especially because it is often made in conjunction with a "It's not how we mean for the game to be played". Oh sure, it isn't - but if enough people wanted it, they'd make it so - in order to make more money.
Also, it's often spoken of as if it would replace the mouse control scheme. Not true. It's all about options baby

[xani]

I think it's more of 'minor improvement that requires a lot of work with little to no benefit'. Even tho I prefer WSAD (but NOT on keyboard. gamepads like n52te or g13 are awesome as you only use thumb to move and 4 other fingers are free to press skill buttons) I'd rather have that extra mob added, or AI made a bit smarter or have another cool skill.

And remember if something looks easy to program it doesn't mean it will be. I have coded some things in my life and I assure you, some things that "look easy" can be balls hard to code, and some things that look complicated and hard to code can be done in 3 lines of code.

[tnoyce]

It's also sometimes difficult to appreciate all the effort behind making what appears to be a simple process to the end-user well-- simple.

I too, would appreciate WASD, but this is not a game killer for me. It's just somewhat easier on the tendonitis.

[Zidders]

[quote="nnezz"this control issue is considered minor since only a minority of people are vocal about it. [/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HQdl4ai3tk&ob=av3n

[D2Hans]

Also when you add a code it could break some other aspect of the game and then you need to fix that, and that may also cause another issue somewhere else.

[nnezz]

I will still play the game, even if I have to play tennis with my mouse. Just saying I'd love the developers extra much, if they catered to my every whim :p

[pothb]

Didn't really read most of this thread but... about directional moving and moving to a point. Can't you just have the game accept a button and have that button point to an x,y coordinate directly next to the character in whatever direction of choice?

[gold163]

Oh sure, it isn't - but if enough people wanted it, they'd make it so - in order to make more money.
Also, it's often spoken of as if it would replace the mouse control scheme. Not true. It's all about options baby

If they don't do it, that's a choice that we as players and fans should respect. I feel like a developer has more integrity if they don't cave to every player demand. If you really want it so badly, mod it in yourself.

When the game comes out and we play it, we will probably see why Runic chose specifically not to offer WASD controls.

[xani]

Blizzard was asked same thing about WASD and they basically answered somethig like: "Allowing WASD would provide an unfair advantage over click to move in some situations. We could of course make WASD the default control scheme, but we feel click to move is integral to the Diablo legacy and gameplay. We have no plans to add WASD or allow it."

[nnezz]

Blizzard was asked same thing about WASD and they basically answered somethig like: "Allowing WASD would provide an unfair advantage over click to move in some situations. We could of course make WASD the default control scheme, but we feel click to move is integral to the Diablo legacy and gameplay. We have no plans to add WASD or allow it."

So straight from the (other) horse's mouth. WASD is easy/simple enough to implement, they just don't want to because it's a better control scheme and it'll outperform the dinosaur-centric tennis action of using the mouse for everything.

As far as those saying "If you want it, mod it in yourself", that is ignorant BS. There are certain things which cannot be modded and unless something happened between Torchlight I and II, then changing the control scheme is not one of them.

[xani]

Blizzard was asked same thing about WASD and they basically answered somethig like: "Allowing WASD would provide an unfair advantage over click to move in some situations. We could of course make WASD the default control scheme, but we feel click to move is integral to the Diablo legacy and gameplay. We have no plans to add WASD or allow it."

So straight from the (other) horse's mouth. WASD is easy/simple enough to implement, they just don't want to because it's a better control scheme and it'll outperform the dinosaur-centric tennis action of using the mouse for everything.

Blizz did not say it's easy to implement, they only said "yes it's better than traditional in some cases". If they wanted to implement it, they both have bigger team AND had more time to do it. They threw away huge parts of their game and redid it before, and they can do it because they have huge resources and no time constraints (as they earn bags of money from WoW).

[gold163]

So straight from the (other) horse's mouth. WASD is easy/simple enough to implement, they just don't want to because it's a better control scheme and it'll outperform the dinosaur-centric tennis action of using the mouse for everything.

As far as those saying "If you want it, mod it in yourself", that is ignorant BS. There are certain things which cannot be modded and unless something happened between Torchlight I and II, then changing the control scheme is not one of them.

If you looked on the first page a yellow specifically stated that in Runic's previous experience allowing WASD controls gave rise to issues with game balance. So at first you complain that when Runic themselves say, "this isn't the style of game we're making, it throws the gameplay out of whack," because that's a "vague technical reason" which you just can't accept. Then you posit that the reason why games don't implement your so-called superior control method is simply because the developers are lazy and don't like you enough to do it. And then when Blizzard says something even vaguely similar to Runic's aforementioned reason that you did not acknowledge, you say, "I told you so! I was right!"

Using mouse controls isn't "dinosaur-centric" or outdated. Arguing for the superiority of WASD controls is just as much of a vague technical reason as deciding to stick with mouse controls. Certain traditional gameplay mechanics are kept specifically because that's the developers' vision of how the game should play. You could make a game where the controls scheme is to simply press a button once to walk towards the nearest thing and kill it, and of course you could just as easily say, "this is a more efficient, superior control method than having to click on everything, which I do not like." It's the same reason why certain special moves in some fighting games require specific sequential inputs and even timing to activate, because being able to use these moves on-demand instantaneously or through a more efficient "superior control method" would mess with how the game actually plays and clash with its design. Sure, one-button flash kick or 360s would be less "tennis with the control stick/dpad". But it's also broken as hell.

If you can't mod it in, use a third party hack like someone suggested. Then try your best to prove that WASD controls are easy to use and superior to mouse controls, and that the game plays as it was designed and intended when you do so.

[amb2010]

So straight from the (other) horse's mouth. WASD is easy/simple enough to implement, they just don't want to because it's a better control scheme and it'll outperform the dinosaur-centric tennis action of using the mouse for everything.

As far as those saying "If you want it, mod it in yourself", that is ignorant BS. There are certain things which cannot be modded and unless something happened between Torchlight I and II, then changing the control scheme is not one of them.

If you keep going on and on about how easy and simple adding WASD to a game, especially one in the "polish" stages of development, everyone is going to think you have no understanding of how game design works or how programming one works as well. It's not a simple chunk of code to add WASD to the game. The entire fighting, pathing and collision systems would need to be redone. Doing that would then lead to possible breaks in other aspects of the game which would then need to be fixed. It's an entire rewrite of the core systems of the game, it would not be a "small" addition they can add in under a month, or unless they half-assed it. As for it being "better" that is merely personal opinion reliant on situation: Would the extra movement control be better on occasion? Yes. Would the more precise movement be better on occasion? Yes. It depends entirely on the developers vision for the game and the systems already in place as to whether or not WASD would work. With an ARPG like D3 of TL2, it just is not a worthwhile endeavor.

We also had someone try to add multiplayer to TL1 and got fairly far all things considered, if there was as large a demand for WASD and as easy as you seem to think, someone would have taken the task of hacking in WASD upon themselves a long time ago in TL1.

[Seer]

If you keep going on and on about how easy and simple adding WASD to a game, especially one in the "polish" stages of development, everyone is going to think you have no understanding of how game design works or how programming one works as well. It's not a simple chunk of code to add WASD to the game. The entire fighting, pathing and collision systems would need to be redone. Doing that would then lead to possible breaks in other aspects of the game which would then need to be fixed. It's an entire rewrite of the core systems of the game, it would not be a "small" addition they can add in under a month, or unless they half-assed it. As for it being "better" that is merely personal opinion reliant on situation: Would the extra movement control be better on occasion? Yes. Would the more precise movement be better on occasion? Yes. It depends entirely on the developers vision for the game and the systems already in place as to whether or not WASD would work. With an ARPG like D3 of TL2, it just is not a worthwhile endeavor.

We also had someone try to add multiplayer to TL1 and got fairly far all things considered, if there was as large a demand for WASD and as easy as you seem to think, someone would have taken the task of hacking in WASD upon themselves a long time ago in TL1.

Completely agree, nothing more I can add other than my strong preference for mouse movement in top down/isometric ARPGs.

[nnezz]

You guys are hilarious. I state my preference for a control scheme, saying it is better, and you all fall over each other to explain how wrong and misguided I am.
Obviously I prefer a WASD control scheme, so in my world it is better. Blizzard stated it would give players an unfair advantage over mouse-only users, so again it is more effective or "better".

As for the technical implications, I have to laugh. On one hand you say I should just mod it in myself, if I really want it. Or if a lot of people wanted it, someone would have made a patch or tweak that make it happen.

On the other hand, you go on and on about how hard and difficult it is to program. How, at this late stage, it's a veritable impossibility to accomplish for the developers who make the game.

So, for someone outside the game - it's entirely doable as long as enough motivation exist. But for the developers, the guys who are making the game and who have the source code, it is not doable at all because it would mean huge changes and redesigns.

Can you "clever" people make up your minds? Don't call me ignorant when you are contradicting yourselves to the point of looking like complete fools.

[Inyssius]

Oh look, it's a huge argument about whether there is a good reason to do this, whether doing this would be a good idea, and whether you personally would do this if given the opportunity!

See, guys? This is why I was so adamant about getting the factual information I actually wanted first! ^_^

[amb2010]

Well in all honesty it was a rather silly question: It's a computer program you could hack in anything given enough time

The only real question related to these types of things is would it work well and is it worth it which is why these discussions always end this way. Always end with someone being upset and ranting about how "mod it in" isn't a good answer or "it's a bit late to add it in" isn't a good one either or just failing to comprehend the points being made as well.

On that subject: Nnezz!

You did indeed state your preference, but you stated it as fact and then say we can't state our own opinions. That's the issue here.

An advantage does not mean it's inherently better, as I said earlier it's incredibly situational and therefore not applicable to EVERYTHING.

As for technical implications I'll see your laugh and raise you 20 more! Most people said if you feel it's such an easy task to add to the game then do it yourself. If enough people wanted it as well then it would have been done (in fact I think it was done somewhat, for sure with a controller) because it is completely and totally possible to add with time. The point is though, they can't just delay the game over and over again just to add every little feature asked by people because they feel it'd work better. I told you in the other thread but I'll say it again: Go read up on feature creep and why it's best to avoid it.

Now feel free to be upset and complain or attempt to point out our logical fallacies all you want, if our points still haven't sunk in then I'm not quite sure what will make it sink in.

[Omnifas]

This again...At least I didn't break .

Stand firm, don't go low.

[xani]

An advantage does not mean it's inherently better, as I said earlier it's incredibly situational and therefore not applicable to EVERYTHING.

Well if you get a closer look at it, WSAD + mouse (done right) will be always superior in gameplay control, just because you can use one hand to control movement and other to target instead doing both with mouse, it's especially important in kiting or dodging missiles. It's like playing FPS on gamepad, yes you can do it but person with same amount of skills playing on mouse + keyboard will do better. But thats not the only factor, for example playing on gamepad is much more convenient if you want to lie on couch or a beanbag than m+k.
And moving with mouse instead of WSAD is much more convenient coz you can drink something or eat a snack without stopping, also for some ppl it will be easier because then they can bind all used skills to keys that are directly under fingers all the time (altho its same with WSAD if you use something like L. G13 or R. n52te)

Edit: also http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4496750461 someone did WSAD (well, not quite) for D3.
it could probably be used for TL2 if it have "move" command like d3. sadly I cant test it coz beta ended 1st may

[amb2010]

-snip-

So basically: Both have advantages based on the situation and depend entirely on their environment? Wasn't that just what I said?

WASD + Mouse to aim *will* always be better when you compare it to something that can't attack and move at the same time. The issue with why saying a WASD mechanic is better than Mouse movement is because of that reason. It's an unfair comparison, it would be like saying "A 10 year old spells better than a 2 year old". Obviously but you can't blame the 2 year old. In a system that does not let you move and attack at the same time WASD provides no advantage and therefore it's silly to claim it's inherently better just because you're comparing two totally different systems instead of two control mechanics in one system.

The next issue is: Any decent game development company shouldn't throw in a clunky control system. People would be thoroughly disappointed and confused if their WASD functionality did not function like it should so if you seriously wanted to go for it then you should do it properly and that involves rewriting the entire system, IE: A lot of work. It would also remove mouse control completely since as stated, it would provide an advantage in a system where you can attack and move at the same time (it could possibly work with the mouse but it would be less effective unless you're APM is ridiculous) and change the combat entirely. The reason people don't want that is 1) They enjoy the mouse control and 2) They enjoy the combat where you have to either sacrifice moving for attacking or attacking for moving.

Saying that should be done because some people like the option is totally contradicting yourself and I'm hoping none of us want lackluster control schemes, we certainly get that enough in shoddy console ports nowadays so we most certainly don't need to demand them in games designed for the PC.