Sugesstion on skill respecing

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Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Anomi » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:18 am

For me one of the most important aspect is how u handle the skill investment system. One thing i dint like in the beta or torchlight 2 is that when investing in skills u dont know if they are going to be good or not. By reading the skill description u try to decide if its going to good for your charter or not . If its bad u just wasted 1 point .
For my experience it makes u skip allot of the skills early game as u want to really save them on the skills u want. Makes u grind skills some lvls or even forgoing skills that would be nice to use.

My suggestion is to let the player reinvest the skill points however he wants until the skill passes lvl 5( since first ability is there). This means u can lvl up a skill to lvl 5 and retract the points when ever u want. If u lvl a skill pass lvl 5 the skill points are set and cannot be reinvested. This lets u try out the skills and see if u like it and let u use more skills while lvling up. The lvl cap on when the skills are permanently set is only a suggestion and can be lower or higher.

I think this still keeps true to what the devs seems to want with players needing to make choices on how to build there charter. This is also why i dont like the idea of the respecing potion in torchlight 1.

Also if someone else have a sugestion they are welcome to post it.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Webbstre » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:27 am

The current system appears to be that you can always respec your last 3 skill points (for a price maybe?). Of course, if you want to respec whenever you could just download a respec potion mod.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Snarkyneno » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:31 am

Well first, welcome to the forums :)

Now that's out of the way, Runic has decided to change how respec worked in the beta. The "compromise" they came up with is that the last three skill points spent can be bought back - presumably at a special NPC in town. That addresses the "try it before you buy it" problem but without allowing you to totally change your character at the drop of a hat. It's quite a bit more restrictive than the system you proposed but it does follow the same ideal. They have also tweaked what levels some of the skills become available for investment - most notably saying that many if not all of the passives will now be unlocked at rather low levels. Nearly every build utilizes one or more passives so they will become a good skill point sink early in the game if you are interested only in the higher level active skills.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby cheeseheads » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:37 am

really no need for a mod cause in another thread a guy is working on a character editor allready. with mods you wont be able to join other peoples games who dont have same mod. at least with editor you can respec no gold cost and still be able to join the anti's games ;)
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Webbstre » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:35 am

cheeseheads wrote:really no need for a mod cause in another thread a guy is working on a character editor allready. with mods you wont be able to join other peoples games who dont have same mod. at least with editor you can respec no gold cost and still be able to join the anti's games ;)


This is probably going to veer far off course, but here's how that appears to me:

Option 1- Download an external program that may or may not be safe to allow me to hack my character saves, allowing me to cheat freely and undetected if I am careful enough.

Option 2 - Install a mod (more likely to be safe as it's pretty much drag and drop to install and contains no executable files) that allows me to play with a different form of respecs, but be segregated from anyone else not using that mod.


Sure, this is just for people who want that kind of free respec option, but it totally feels like a "the lesser of two evils" situation.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Mirror » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:05 am

I think it's a good idea.
Normally we want to learn something because we think it's good or cool.
Try one skill after another just waste a lot of time and need to build many chars.

In order to get to know well each classes's skill,
many players would use game modifier to modify skill points in single game.
So every classes we'll create one test char that full of skill.
And after we get familiar with the skill tree, we play the game without modify anything and enjoy it.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Chthon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:56 am

cheeseheads wrote:really no need for a mod cause in another thread a guy is working on a character editor allready. with mods you wont be able to join other peoples games who dont have same mod. at least with editor you can respec no gold cost and still be able to join the anti's games ;)


Webbstre wrote:
cheeseheads wrote:really no need for a mod cause in another thread a guy is working on a character editor allready. with mods you wont be able to join other peoples games who dont have same mod. at least with editor you can respec no gold cost and still be able to join the anti's games ;)


This is probably going to veer far off course, but here's how that appears to me:

Option 1- Download an external program that may or may not be safe to allow me to hack my character saves, allowing me to cheat freely and undetected if I am careful enough.


Hey now, as the person who's writing the editor, I take offense at the implication there. There's no malicious code in my program; no crash bugs that I'm aware of; it's never mangled a save file that I've tested it on; and it automatically backs up files before modifying them anyway (unless the user is dumb enough to turn that feature off). Also, the first release after TL2 launches *might* even be open source, since Runic's delay in releasing TL2 is giving me time to do code clean up and commenting in addition to adding new features. So, if you're really paranoid, you can read the code yourself and compile your own executable.

Link to the thread about the editor: here.

Since I mentioned new features, I might as well provide a list:
Spoiler: show
Change name: Planned
Change sex: Planned
Change face, hair, hair color, bandana color: DONE
Change pet name: Planned
Change pet type and color: DONE
Gold Cheat: Planned
Difficulty Change: Planned
Hardcore/Softcore switching: Planned
Hardcore Resurrection: Planned
Clone character: Planned
Torchlight 2 Rapid Respec - Putting the "hack" in "hack-n-slash"
StashNinja - INFINITE Stash for Torchlight 2
NullMod - Play together in the same multiplayer game with different mods!
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby targren » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:01 am

Webbstre wrote:This is probably going to veer far off course, but here's how that appears to me:

Option 1- Download an external program that may or may not be safe to allow me to hack my character saves, allowing me to cheat freely and undetected if I am careful enough.

Option 2 - Install a mod (more likely to be safe as it's pretty much drag and drop to install and contains no executable files) that allows me to play with a different form of respecs, but be segregated from anyone else not using that mod.

Sure, this is just for people who want that kind of free respec option, but it totally feels like a "the lesser of two evils" situation.


As I understand it, option 2 is an even lesser evil than that since, IIRC, you can do your respec, then turn off the mod.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby cheeseheads » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:39 am

targren wrote:
Webbstre wrote:This is probably going to veer far off course, but here's how that appears to me:

Option 1- Download an external program that may or may not be safe to allow me to hack my character saves, allowing me to cheat freely and undetected if I am careful enough.

Option 2 - Install a mod (more likely to be safe as it's pretty much drag and drop to install and contains no executable files) that allows me to play with a different form of respecs, but be segregated from anyone else not using that mod.

Sure, this is just for people who want that kind of free respec option, but it totally feels like a "the lesser of two evils" situation.


As I understand it, option 2 is an even lesser evil than that since, IIRC, you can do your respec, then turn off the mod.


see yet another option around the respec problem :)
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Arlian » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:02 pm

Be wary of the ill omens that calling a discussion of skill respeccing brings. In its wake is only tears and terrible furious war.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby gameqb11 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:32 pm

Arlian wrote:Be wary of the ill omens that calling a discussion of skill respeccing brings. In its wake is only tears and terrible furious war.

still much better than any "release now or else" threads. I much prefer we discuss gameplay
Yay, TL2!!!
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Chthon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:38 pm

gameqb11 wrote:
Arlian wrote:Be wary of the ill omens that calling a discussion of skill respeccing brings. In its wake is only tears and terrible furious war.

still much better than any "release now or else" threads. I much prefer we discuss gameplay


What about "release now or else I'll respec"?
Torchlight 2 Rapid Respec - Putting the "hack" in "hack-n-slash"
StashNinja - INFINITE Stash for Torchlight 2
NullMod - Play together in the same multiplayer game with different mods!
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby CheesyPeas » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:41 pm

Hah, your threats are hollow. You cannot respec until you have joined a private TL2 server and debated the true meaning of summer.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Hermokrates » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:51 pm

Here is another person complaining that he cannot create the perfect god character the first time...
Time = Reward is a cake pill that you dump some water on and poof, there's a cake.
Risk = Reward is a cake, that reflects the quality of ingredients and preparation you put into it.
And this: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/ba ... -for-skill
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Zeku » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:06 pm

The debate about respeccing is over, it's going to happen whether we like it or not. We also know that there will be day 1 cheaters in multiplayer games. That's going to happen whether we like it or not. There was already a program posted on this forum demonstrated how easy it will be to cheat in a multiplayer game on day 1.

The only thing still worth discussing is what should be permitted in the vanilla game, with an eye towards what people too casual, or too "unskilled" to mod, should be capable of.

The 'last 3' respec option is a jury-rig. It does solve the problem, but is not good design. The reason is that stupid people will quickly lose track of what their last 3 skills were. They'll think 'oh I can just respec these choices,' and then pick something else, forgetting that this removes the ability to respec those skills which they mentally assumed were freebies. Even smart players may accidentally do this.

Furthermore, it will allow 'good' players to easily exploit powerful level-1 skills to get past difficult content, while making no investment whatsoever in those abilities, or that design for their character. In other words, it will allow a somewhat tedious, convoluted method of min-maxing which I really don't care for.

The ONLY reason to allow respecs in the real game, is to permit players to try out an ability for a while, and the only reason to do that, is to give the player some idea of what an ability does. There are better ways to allow a player to try out an ability. The easiest is to simply purchase temporary abilities, either through scrolls, or a trainer. Another, more difficult and more elegant solution, is to simply creating a complete training facility, with a blank template character. 100 skill points available, 500 stat points, and a stash full of all types of weapons, and a big ring of target dummies.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby CheesyPeas » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:17 pm

Zeku wrote:Another, more difficult and more elegant solution, is to simply creating a complete training facility, with a blank template character. 100 skill points available, 500 stat points, and a stash full of all types of weapons, and a big ring of target dummies.


Cracking idea for a mod. Turn it on, a portal appears to this place from the first city (simple). You can have a couple of flavour NPCs to explain what it's all about (simple), a few stashes or merchants that sell some specific gear (I.E. Training Staff of the Embermage) that grants an instant +15 to specific skills (should be easy to do) to try out on dummies (should be simple). Only thing I'd want it to do beyond that is ensure the gear vapourises when you leave the area (not sure about this one, needs to be investigated).

Mind if, if auras are allowed to have effects attached rather than discrete actions, and neutral auras are allowed to propagate to friendly entities I would suggest the NPC's themselves could just emit +skills auras; that would be even better.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Zeku » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:38 pm

No it has to be a different character, you can't add and remove things from real characters, someone will find an exploit.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby Alcator » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:39 pm

Chthon wrote:Since I mentioned new features, I might as well provide a list:
Spoiler: show
Change name: Planned
Change sex: Planned
Change face, hair, hair color, bandana color: DONE
Change pet name: Planned
Change pet type and color: DONE
Gold Cheat: Planned
Difficulty Change: Planned
Hardcore/Softcore switching: Planned
Hardcore Resurrection: Planned
Clone character: Planned


I can almost see how characters edited with your program will frequently trigger the in-game multiplayer "Cheating Character" warning. I mean, if you can adjust Gold level and skills, people are likely to make a mistake in there and get flagged.

Your solution is the WORSE of the two offered (the second being respec mod).
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby targren » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:49 pm

Alcator wrote:
Chthon wrote:Since I mentioned new features, I might as well provide a list:
<snipped>


I can almost see how characters edited with your program will frequently trigger the in-game multiplayer "Cheating Character" warning. I mean, if you can adjust Gold level and skills, people are likely to make a mistake in there and get flagged.

Your solution is the WORSE of the two offered (the second being respec mod).


If I remember the original thread correctly, before it was locked, Chthon mentioned that he was going to try to have a "validate" option in his editor as well, to prevent just those mistakes.
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Re: Sugesstion on skill respecing

Postby CheesyPeas » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:50 pm

Zeku wrote:No it has to be a different character, you can't add and remove things from real characters, someone will find an exploit.


You can mod whatever you like, what's the point of looking for or making an exploit? :)

But I would prefer a passive aura, simply to make it seamless for the player.
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