How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

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How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby coredumperror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:02 pm

I've only just gotten to Act 2 of my NG+, so I'm still fairly new to the details of the game. I've currently got a skull in my Engineer's cannon that gives -167 to All Armor per hit. It appears to add a debuff to my targets, but there's no indication on how (or if) the debuff stacks, so I'm not entirely certain how it works. Could someone please enlighten me? I imagine that this has been discussed before, so a link to the discussion thread would be perfect.

So, with the knowledge of exactly how -X to All Armor works, how useful is it? Do monsters tend to have a lot of armor that needs stripping? Is -armor better or worse than simply increasing your damage per hit?
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Mornus1 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:22 pm

It increases your dmg per hit.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby FreeKings » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:44 pm

It just stacks as one would imagine. Each hit adds a -167 armor to the debuff, and you can reduce the targets armor to 0. The usefulness usually depends on two things. How much armor the target has and how fast your weapon is.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Seeders » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:50 pm

how long does the debuff last?
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby coredumperror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:07 pm

Seeders wrote:how long does the debuff last?

About 5 seconds, but it refreshes each time you hit.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Nauzhror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:15 pm

coredumperror wrote:
Seeders wrote:how long does the debuff last?

About 5 seconds, but it refreshes each time you hit.


I don't believe it actually refreshes in the way that might make people think it does, each instance seems to have its own timer, it's just that only the most recently applied instances timer is shown.

ie. Hitting more than once every 5 seconds doesn't mean it keeps stacking and stacking and stacking(...), 5 seconds after one instance is applied that instance wears off, so if you can only hit an enemy 3 times in a 5 second period and your weapon applies -150 armor, you can't get more than -450 on the enemy.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby coredumperror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:22 pm

Awww, I hope that's not true. That makes -armor much worse, since it's already hard enough to keep hitting once every 5 seconds against some bosses, to maintain the stack.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby forevernomad » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:28 pm

Nauzhror wrote:
coredumperror wrote:
Seeders wrote:how long does the debuff last?

About 5 seconds, but it refreshes each time you hit.


I don't believe it actually refreshes in the way that might make people think it does, each instance seems to have its own timer, it's just that only the most recently applied instances timer is shown.

ie. Hitting more than once every 5 seconds doesn't mean it keeps stacking and stacking and stacking(...), 5 seconds after one instance is applied that instance wears off, so if you can only hit an enemy 3 times in a 5 second period and your weapon applies -150 armor, you can't get more than -450 on the enemy.


DOT stack continuously, Shocking Burst hits 7.5 times a second and procs -Armour, so you would get -150 X 7.5 or -1125 armour per second, which if you continue to hit would stay at that level, resetting the timer each time and then when you stop hitting the timer will start to run out normally, so -1125 for an additional 5 seconds.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Nauzhror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:50 pm

forevernomad wrote:DOT stack continuously, Shocking Burst hits 7.5 times a second and procs -Armour, so you would get -150 X 7.5 or -1125 armour per second, which if you continue to hit would stay at that level, resetting the timer each time and then when you stop hitting the timer will start to run out normally, so -1125 for an additional 5 seconds.


Huh? My point was that if I hit every 1.5 seconds and apply -150 every time that after 40 seconds the enemy will not have -3900. I've watched the timer on my outlander when hitting with rapid fire, it doesn't appear to just endlessly stack if I keep hitting something.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby forevernomad » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:08 pm

Nauzhror wrote:Huh? My point was that if I hit every 1.5 seconds and apply -150 every time that after 40 seconds the enemy will not have -3900. I've watched the timer on my outlander when hitting with rapid fire, it doesn't appear to just endlessly stack if I keep hitting something.


The timer doesn't stack, it resets with each hit, but the applied numbers do stack.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Nauzhror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:09 pm

forevernomad wrote:
Nauzhror wrote:Huh? My point was that if I hit every 1.5 seconds and apply -150 every time that after 40 seconds the enemy will not have -3900. I've watched the timer on my outlander when hitting with rapid fire, it doesn't appear to just endlessly stack if I keep hitting something.


The timer doesn't stack, it resets with each hit, but the applied numbers do stack.


Yeah, that's what I was saying, that each instance has its own timer.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Sogetsu » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:30 pm

EDIT: I will quote from the other thread, so it is more easy to anyone trying to find it. This is about Shred Armor, which leech Armor and gives it to you, but the reduction of armor on the enemy is the same for any other "-X to ll Armor per hit" except that it doesn't add to you what it leech

Sogetsu wrote:Yes, Shred Armor remains the time it should and is additive, I tested it with my Zerker the other day and my Armor went up the sky at some point

The "limit" is the time duration, for example, you Leech 4 armor that last 5 seconds

Then, if you in those 5 seconds hit the enemy 10 times (0.5 Weapon Attack Speed), you are achieving " 10 x 4 " = 40 Armor Leech

You can't get more than it in posterior hits because the "time limit" of the first hit disappears after the 5 seconds mark, but you replace it with a new one

Technically, you will be adding +4 Armor every hit for about 5 seconds, and that total will be the limit (in the example it was +40 Armor), after it the result goes +4 - 4 +4 - 4 +4 - 4 +4 - 4 +4 - 4 , etc, which maintain the +40 Armor on top as much as possible.


trevallion wrote:If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the maximum amount of armor shred is limited by your weapon speed? So for the sake of easy math, let's say I have a 1.0 speed weapon with -5 armor per hit, I can stack up to ((5 seconds)/(1.0 weapon speed))*(- 25 armor per hit) = -25 armor, but the amount stays at -25 even if I only attack frequently enough to refresh the debuff timer after the initial applications? That sounds really unintuitive. Not that this game is a stranger to unintuitive mechanics. Maybe I should see if I can figure any of this out with my test engineer.

Also I think the berserker passive was probably a bad comparison for me to make. I just looked at the description and it specifically lists a 3 second duration for the armor increase, so it might not stack the same as armor reduction effects. Or it might, but just be limited to (3 seconds)/(weapon speed) instead of 5.


Sogetsu wrote:
but the amount stays at -25 even if I only attack frequently enough to refresh the debuff timer after the initial applications?


Not at all... you are understanding it well at some point, but you can't "attack frequently enough". Let's see... with a 1 Second Attack Speed on your Weapon, dealing 1 attack every 1 Second

Code: Select all
Second   Armor Leech   Total Added
      
1             +4           4
2             +4           8
3             +4           12
4             +4           16
5             +4           20
6             +4 -4        20
7             +4 -4        20


Do you see how it works? The hit on the first second will add you +4 Armor, but after 5 seconds, the armor leech of THAT hit disappears, BUT you add a new +4 armor leech from a sixth hit

At the end, the max amount of Armor Leech you obtain is limited by "Weapon_Attack_Speed" because you will get as much armor as hits you can perform in the "Time_Limit_Duration" of the Armor Leech

The simple math is, take how longer remains the Armor Leech on a single hit of your skill/socketable/weapon/armor whatever
After that, calculate how many hits you can achieve in that time limit and multiply them for the ammount of Armor Leech, and you will get the Max you can retain on additive hits

About my Zerker, yes, it is 3 seconds, but my ASPD is about 0.5 always because I love to use fast weapons instead strong ones, then I can achieve at least 6 hits on those 3 Seconds, so... my max Armor Leech will be

6 (hits on 3 seconds) x 20 (ammount of Armor Leech each hit) = + 120 Armor

That said, after 3 seconds hitting enemies nonstop, I have a plus of 120 Armor constantly until I stop hitting enemies and that goes down, I can also see in the 3 seconds, how it growth on the Arcane Statistics, you could look at it also!!
Simply open the Arcane Statistics, look at the "Armor" value, and start hitting something, it could be the Practice Dummy if you want! Then you will notice how your Armor goes up with each successive hit until the effect of the first hit disappears and it's replaced by a new one, at that point you will see your Armor added reach a top, where it will not goes up anymore.
Stop hitting the Dummy and you will be able to check how your Armor goes down to the real/standard/normal value again. I hope it helps you ;)
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby coredumperror » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Ah, thanks for that, Sogetsu. That's stinks that -armor works that way, but oh well. I guess that's to make sure that -500 armor per hit isn't effectively just as good as -750 armor per hit.
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Re: How useful is -X to All Armor per hit?

Postby Sogetsu » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:39 pm

Remember that you can't lower the Armor below ZERO IIRC, that is why sometimes I feel that stacking so much Armor Leech is kinda useless and try to get a decent value only to be OK
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