Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

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Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Thrybrid » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:39 pm

Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Hi everyone ! :ugeek:
First thing : I'm french so if I make any mistake, just tell me ! : ]

As I'm used to make quite long posts - and any which pretends to 'guide' should be - I've made silly paragraph titles in orange ! It'll be more convenient to read.

Update:
Spider & Gel (& Troll) tests added. Fire & Poison ones reworked, the latter seems to be the best.

Science vs Reports
I don't think this post could serve as any scientific weighed-up decision, because it states my opinions I tried to make the most objective possible and it's no matter about numbers. Still I hope to give hints to people interested but "lost" in Fishing ..!
Also, doubtful or not, I'm very willing about hearing any of your tests or findings !
(All tests have been made with Torchlight v1.15, with a l.80~ character (Devastate Destroyer), on various creatures from the Lizardmen's Caverns, and mainly themselves. Pet Mastery at 10.
I did not make any timed tests cause too many elements are playing a part. For this we would require a testing area with idle monsters and such.)

"Mods", no thanks
Please don't make replies to offer an umpteenth "mod" which could fix a "problem" in your view ; I'm here to talk about core Torchlight, the one which has been designed, conceived, chosen by Runic Games. The current balance is as it is for a reason and I'm dealing with that.
If you deny it, that's not Torchlight, but YOUR Torchlight ; and as I don't disrespect any of that kind of choices, that's about things I disregard completely - in order to make an objective and common guide for anyone..!


...So, here you are, you love your pet, you're so fond of a deserved fishing time after a bloody mess and lucky drops... You throw your fishing rod, things bite the hook, you make incredible loads of icky spastic fishes... But you don't know anything about what's better to keep and your backpack is never larger enough !
Tonight having my bag fulfilled with things I've become used to not use, I've done some tests with those cuties :3



Stats

On this page you can see a list of all known fishes and their different sizes, and the stats effects on your pet. For more convenience I quote it here :

Image
Notes about this table :
- The Improbable Large Fish, transforming your pet as a Troll for 30s only, is not listed here.
- The Thorned Strider and the Tattered Lurker notes are false, tested with Heal All and I encountered no problems.
- Did not see any Charm ability from a Mimic.
As you can see with stats, only few seem to be good. But what about attack speed, potential AoE skills and such..? We'll see things aren't that obvious !

Zero HP = flee
I'd like to make one statement before giving my results :
As I did let the pet only fight, I noticed that even nearly zero health it continued to fight. Only at zero it was fleeing, gaining then some life and it wasn't anymore. I don't know if that's any bug or glitch, one time it fled while going under a threshold of like 1/10 life left, as I used to know in the 1.00 version of Torchlight. I don't know what to think here. As the pet's main behaviour for 30h experience was to continue fighting and rarely flee, I'll consider so in my conclusions.

What does this mean firstly, well that Defense & HP stats will have not much importance, with you on the scene ; except perhaps in the aggressive mode activated (useful in HC apparently ?..), as the pet will be alone and surrounded :'( and if not fleeing it'll mostly be taking hits rather than make successful attacks.

Pretence
Given the Attack stat, only Varkolyns (1.4), Mimics and Elementals (1.25) seem worthy.
Given Defense/HP stats, only Burrowers (3.75HP) and Mimics (2.5HP) seem so ; there's no transformation which boost Defense, much valuable than HP.
You understand that any transformation reducing it is rejected.
In an overall view, Mimics, Burrowers, Varkolyns and perhaps, Elementals seem to make it. Goblinhounds are quite equal.

Well...



Analysis

Monster skills & Notation
See any monster skill here. I've put the info next to their name anyway.

Some transformations are even worse than the original form of the pet. I put a ' ! ' before its name ; the really best ones are with a ' + '.
When I quote skills it's matter of DPS, but saying that 100% DPS = a normal attack is apparently true. From my observations I use the term "damage" though.


GO!
Let's start !.. (at last!!)
...with the Varkolyn, the best Attack owner (1.4). Actually it's very stupid, it'll either take its time or run around with no reason, like fleeing for pleasure. :l The Jump Attack (100% DPS / 3s Cooldown) is rather fun but happens not very often. The Varkolyn is very confused and DO more damage, but its attack speed, lack of skills and global behaviour make it very mediocre. Too bad for such a look.

Then the Mimic ! (Rare fish) Here's a great deal for sure ! Well in my experience it's rather common. Quite fun to see, wacky style, it seems to me that it endured a slow hit recovery speed though. Normal attack speed, it's not BAD, it's good, while not being mighty and impressive. Only HtH contact but it's not boring. Choose it for its cuteness ! <3
Note : This Charm ability has not showed, if any of you can tell if the Mimic is able to cast it...

Okay, next the Goblinhound to make it done. I believe with 0.8 Defense but 1.9 HP, and Heal spells, this should balance. So it's more a matter of taste again, too bad it don't Dash (110% DPS, 15 Knockback) more often, doesn't seem to trigger in any HtH fight like Lizardmen or Disciples, but to use a minimum range. Normal attack speed I believe, quite squat looking, it's like an evil version of your dog :] When you got nothing else, it could be fun.

What about a !Thorned Strider ? (Rarer fish.) With such stats, we count on its abilities, which are... None. It's less tall than its monster replicas, but still "scary". Attack speed, hm I'd say normal though it seemed to be hesitant to strike, but chances are that's my imagination. Well, always that same Heavy hand hit, really no efficiency nor fun over here. :C Why this fish costs more..?

Time for the !Tattered Lurker (Rarer fish.) to show if those poor stats are for a bigfatdeadlyskillfromthesky. Well, NO. It's even faster but still makes less damage. Really too bad cause that's the only winged transformation the game offers (which in my humble opinion are in fewer numbers anyway |< ). A bit more little than monster replicas. Try it, and forget it. But why this one costs more too ..??

Well the !!Spider is even worth trying. Worst stats, no skills, well I even didn't see that poison bolt but really, uhm, same that above, faster attack speed, and weeaaaaker. It's just weak. Oh well. Spiders are disgusting.

So much bad news indeed.
So swap this sh*t with for the Gel. There's a difference. Its basic Shock electrical AoE attack is bad, but sometimes it casts ShockMode (100% cast Gel Shock when hit - which is 200%DPS) and this one is brilliant. Harsh for one second. But it needs to get hit, and it's not that often, else shy blobby attacks. Well it's so special looking and making such weird sounds that it's a "fun" companion ; don't expect that it'll make you have less hassle.

Would the Burrower bring us at last awesomeness ? Not bad. But oh god what a shitload of HP for real yo. And it bites ! So cool. Normal attack speed. Sometimes, it makes a AoE electrical attack, Shock (50% DPS, Cooldown 6s) and as you see it's weak :l But okay. Very funny to see, the Burrower actually classy looking and the HP huge boost make it neat.

Note: I can't see any Elemental monster skill on TLArmory, if you have any hints...)
You surely noticed the +Fire Elemental. It often casts a good Lava AoE with damage over time (I'd say x0.4 damage every second, not so sure), and with his three Fireball shots (x2 damage each..?), in close contact it's really dealing heavy harm. Every Elemental have a clap HtH attack which is very equal. The main thing is its sustained speed. Yeah this one a definitely a great choice.

Then comes the mighty +Poison Elemental. The Poison nova it regularly casts is enormous in a close fight, hitting nearly every monster anyway (x2 damage or less per bolt - when this shit crits, srsly it's mindfuck). Its three Poison balls (different from Zealot's Ember bolt) are fine (x1.5 or less) but a little slow. Again as they're homing, in contact that's all one shot and it f*hurts. Its cast speed makes it so aggressive. I did not noticed any particular poison damage over time, strangely. The Fire Elemental is doing well with loads of foes, the Poison one has no AoE but still large range, and will do a strong wipe on contact with an unseen amount of damage. Nothing less, enough said.

Next, the !Electric Elemental should be kickass ! Not at all :l I don't really understand, its lightning attacks are weak and it clearly seems to be hesitant on striking - or is the attack (cast) speed under its congeners..? Also I noticed some presumed AoE attacks such as a lightning coming from sky often don't deal anything, like no damage as if monsters dodged it while being very close to it - on this point I'd really appreciate feedback. The weak skills of this one just surprised me but that's it, WEAK :l

Last but not least, the Ice Elemental isn't bad though its sky Ice meteor seem also to simply miss targets sometimes (else x2 damage or even more), its fair three ice bolt (x1 or a bit more ..?) is a good support ; same thing here, its speed is above normal. Plus it slows foes, not as badly Frost VI can do, but still the half I'd say. Steady choice, pretty classy and handful.

The very last one... the Troll. Well. It's hard to tell. You're able to see that wide heap of muscles for only 30s, and it's very fast, because this Troll is very slow. Either moving or attacking with only is huge fist repeatedly, it's just too SLOW. Since its stats are quite the best [HP: x3,1 / Damage: x2~ / Defense: x1], and numbers displayed outstanding, it really didn't amazed me in any point, so I'd be glad seeing someone contradict me ..! For that amount of time, I hope I should be wrong.


Relativity
So all these observations are here to show what is efficient. And efficient within the pet possibilities, because when a Poison Elemental needs 10s or so to liquefy a Lizardman, with a Devastate Destroyer I make two. So that's utterly the reason why make one's choice considering personal tastes.
In order to choose an appropriate Giant fish, note that "permanent" transformation means "permanent until another fish fed" !
But still I encourage everybody to make any choice about looking, appearance and personal rating ! (Exactly what we don't need and should disregard on those - and any - tests & observations..!)



Equipment

I made a little research about what equipment could assist us on Torchlight Armory with our glorious fishy quest :3
I found no shields, and only few weapons.

Helmet : Sushi Helm >> 20% Note: Really easy to have, check the recipe !
Rings : Motar's Band >> 5%
--> Tanwanteng's Bad Influence >> 10%
Necklace : Fisherman's Friend >> 10%
Boots : Valcone's Butt Kickers >> 10%
One 1H Mace : Chainfist >> 5%
And one Pistol : The Drunkendwarf Persuader >> 1%
--> 2Handed Polearm : Eleven Ton Hammer >> 10%

Belts : Shadow Sash >> 1%
Gloves : Transmuter Gloves / Dragonscale gauntlets >> 1%
Chest : Nargothrel's Vest / Dragonscale Chest / Zoromun's Ideal / Zoromun's Ideal >> 1%
Shoulders : Transmuter Mantle >> 1%

Fish : Emberbright Cod >> 50% for 1200s aka 20mn
You can also eat this rare fish to fish more... fish. Great. I love that.
(Dunno if it stacks, I've read a test stating eating one was a big difference, two wasn't.)

So without the sweet latter we can have a maximum global permanent bonus to Fishing Luck of 64%. So 114% with the Emberbright Cod. Weeeeee.
I'd be quite interested to see what differences happen. Actually.

Yummy
What about those consumables, Glowing Shark for +1 permanent Magic (what about other stats??), Albino Halbut for +10% block /5mn, Ember Fish Eye for +20% Exp gain /5mn, classic Bearded Fish for +25% armor /5mn (which happen to be much higher, with my poor 10x Def my armor is doubled...), or this Ordraak Polyp for +25%Magic Find for 1 hour ..?? And other pet buffs...
...Or even those mysterious socketable Lucky Fish Tooth (+3 crits) or Devil Fish Eye (+5% Attack speed) ..?! I say yum. YUM.



Areas

Last chapter and short one.
Still from the wiki page, we can point out that the Black Palace can nearly drop it all, but not so sure it's the best choice.
The Crypt seem more appropriate to drop Firefish, Venomfish, Ice Angel & Pocketfish (and badly Birdfish, Bog Perch & Electrical Eel) ;
the Estherian Ruins bring up Gold fish, Improbable large Fish & Pocketfish (Birdfish & Electrical Eel for the worst).
Anything like Web fish, Glooper Jelly, Bat fish, Muckfish & Tunnel Shark is not stated, but is available.

I wonder if those statements are valid for the Shadow Vault... Perhaps they exactly are, and those in the Main dungeon cut off best ones (until the Black Palace). Reports are needed !..


...Aaaannd done ! That wasn't that boring, was it
Here's the ending of my Guide for Pet transformations ! Hope that'll help you to discern what suits you, and remember, your taste above everything !
Also please don't hesitate to give any feedback on this. Either your doubt or your enthusiasm could be useful to confirm facts or dismantle beliefs !

Greetings Torchlight (FISH) lovers & Endless Respect to Runic Games ! Live long !
Much fishy love,
T.
Last edited by Thrybrid on Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tests, reports, Knowledge
Fishing : Pet transformations Guide. :3 / Speedrun thread
Bash - Smash - Crush -- Thykhs, SC.H.Destroyer l.100: Devastate 2Handed. / Phlain, SC.H.Destroyer l.46: Spectral Echo Ranged.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby josef » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:12 am

Hello, I am also French so...
I tested the spell summon blood skeleton (11/11) and saw that we could summon 5 of those.
However, I find rather boring spamming 5 times the bind every 60 seconds, so I give it to my pet.
I noticed that except "Thorned Strider" which summon the 5 minions rather quickly as soon as a fight takes place, the others summon only two of those.
Is there a logical explanation or is it a kind of bug ?

Thx.

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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Thrybrid » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:18 pm

Salut josef !
What a chance, I fire Torchlight again these days cause I miss the II badly, and as I drifted in the SV... saw a fishin hole ._. "what's this shit, what must I use" then I remembered of that post I made on the forums...
I mean lucky indeed, cause I don't read these forums anymore !

To answer you, I really don't know.
I didn't know the 11th rank of that spell ( :l ) but the difference of casting behaviour between pets as you describe it seems... like pure crap
As you perhaps noticed this guide is based on NO debug mode but just... tests, looking at average damage for minutes. (:
But MAYBE it's because the Strider is slower so routines don't take him all busy, and so has time to cast them five ..?? Could you tell if he recasts if one blood skeletons is missing..? Do the other transformations recast too, even if two seems to be the max ..?

Also what you can do, is tryin' to compare the efficiency of a Thorned Strider & 5 blood skeletons, with a Poison Elemental say & 2 skeletons. :D I'll tell that the latter is still more powerful, but please go ahead !
Thanks a lot for reading and taking interest, mes salutations !
Tests, reports, Knowledge
Fishing : Pet transformations Guide. :3 / Speedrun thread
Bash - Smash - Crush -- Thykhs, SC.H.Destroyer l.100: Devastate 2Handed. / Phlain, SC.H.Destroyer l.46: Spectral Echo Ranged.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Ichthyic » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:41 pm

I spent hours finding a giant tunnel shark to turn my cat into a burrower permanently, only to find out that "permanent" only means until you feed it any other fish.

They have a very odd definition of the word "permanent" here.

It should be permanent, PERIOD, until you apply another permanent change fish.

what a waste of time.

so, for those of you out there considering this:

don't bother.

your best bet is just to install the fishmonger mod and buy stacks of the fish you want your pet to turn into at any given time.

the side effect is that every time you transmogrify your pet, you fully heal it.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Zidders » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:03 pm

Ichthyic wrote: only to find out that "permanent" only means until you feed it any other fish.
It should be permanent, PERIOD, until you apply another permanent change fish.


If you wanted it to stay the creature it changed into when you fed it a permanent fish, why did you feed it another fish, especially a non-permanent one? Kinda your own fault there, not the games.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Ichthyic » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:18 pm

To my mind, permanent means your pet has now been *replaced*.

IOW, using transform fish on it (other than permanent ones) just means it transforms like your original pet did, but changes back to its permanent form after the duration ends.

otherwise, what's the point?

and yes, that is a function of game design, not my error. It's poor game design; this is why I mention it.

example: if you buy a dogfish and turn your cat into a dog, it STAYS that way, no matter what fish you feed it.

see?
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Zidders » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:10 pm

The first game isn't perfect. The devs have always been up front about the fact that they wish they'd had the time and resources to do a better job on the first game. I'm confident that the fishing system in the sequel will be far better than it was in the original. If you like, feel free to give some input here viewtopic.php?f=30&t=20019&hilit=fishing as far as how you'd like to see the fishing system work in the sequel.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby dreamrider » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:53 am

Don't know how much forum research Ithyic may have put in along with all those hours and efforts fishing for Giant Fish, but exactly how Giant Fish work has been pretty thouroughly discussed a number of times.

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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby zekrom » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:46 am

Zidders wrote:
Ichthyic wrote: only to find out that "permanent" only means until you feed it any other fish.
It should be permanent, PERIOD, until you apply another permanent change fish.


If you wanted it to stay the creature it changed into when you fed it a permanent fish, why did you feed it another fish, especially a non-permanent one? Kinda your own fault there, not the games.


haha awesome dude
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Ichthyic » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:09 pm

dreamrider wrote:Don't know how much forum research Ithyic may have put in along with all those hours and efforts fishing for Giant Fish, but exactly how Giant Fish work has been pretty thouroughly discussed a number of times.

dreamrider


uh, the reason I posted it wasn't because I wasn't aware of how it worked, obviously I AM aware, by direct experience.

my point is, it should be modded to be a permanent effect, just like changing your pet to a dog from a cat, or vice versa, is not undone by simply using a fish on it.

If I want my permanent pet to be a tunneler instead of a cat or dog, using a giant fish *should* make that happen. Then, if I want a temporary change to it, just like with my dog or cat, it would still change back to whatever the "permanent" state is for it after the timer runs out on whatever temporary fish effect I've applied. That's the point of it being a PERMANENT change.

the idea that giant fish don't permanently change your pet's base form ruins the point of experimenting with different types in different areas. what if I normally want a tunneler instead of a dog, but still want to be able to change it to a poison elemental or a fire elemental in certain circumstances?

like I said, it's stupid to call it "permanent" when it isn't. There is no point to it, since there already are "big fish" that essentially will change your pet for a huge amount of time anyway.

you people are really kinda dense.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Zidders » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:27 pm

Ichthyic wrote:
you people are really kinda dense.

Ok, relax. We get it. There's really no need to stoop to insults. Like I said, if you have a suggestion for the new system, by all means feel free to post in the thread I linked to previously. I happen to agree with you. Permanent fish should be just that-permanent, allowing you to change your pet into something else and then allowing you to change that into different creatures with non permanent fish, then when it changes back it should be permanent. I think this would be a great feature in the sequel.

While I understand your frustration, there's really no need to insult peoples intelligence over a simple misunderstanding/difference of opinion. There's a far better chance of people (like me) agreeing with you if you take the time to be a little more petient with people, instead of getting frustrated with them and insulting them.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Thrybrid » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:11 am

Hi guys !
Also I said it
"Mods", no thanks
Please don't make replies to offer an umpteenth "mod" which could fix a "problem" in your view ; I'm here to talk about core Torchlight, the one which has been designed, conceived, chosen by Runic Games. The current balance is as it is for a reason and I'm dealing with that


I thought useful to add the real effect of "permanent" as a reminder.
Anyway this definition is logical for me, the Dog/Cat/Ferret form is truly permanent (back to this form) cause it's the only original... Even a permanent transformation from a fish is kinda magically bound.

But it doesn't have to bother you, as I think that adapting your pet's form to every level is useless in terms of damage. Monsters should have different resistances for sure, but I don't know them and we can't choose to change a lot. Actually if you notice particular efficiencies for a given transformation in given areas (Mines, Crypts, etc.) because of the overall stats of this area's monsters, well it could be then relevant (more if we take the Shadow Vault areas' mobs as one would find a good Giant fish in a certain amount of time).
Tests, reports, Knowledge
Fishing : Pet transformations Guide. :3 / Speedrun thread
Bash - Smash - Crush -- Thykhs, SC.H.Destroyer l.100: Devastate 2Handed. / Phlain, SC.H.Destroyer l.46: Spectral Echo Ranged.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Zidders » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:26 am

Thry, this was an excellent write up, by the way. I'm sorry I missed it the first time around.
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Re: Fishing : Pet transformations Guide.

Postby Perictione » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:43 am

Thrybrid:

Great work! An interesting read, too. Thanks for posting this; I'm sure more folks will read through this in the days that follow!


- P.
I guess I'm gonna have to up and kill ya even if yer already dead, Zombie-boy

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