Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Ferelwing » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:39 am

Has anyone noticed that the frequency of the "Embermage" etc seems to get worse the longer the server is up with the game? So far, my group has noticed that the longer the uptime of the game (ie.. If you are playing for longer than 2 or 3 hours) the more frequent the issue with players loading into areas as "Embermage" or other seemingly weird desync issues happen along the way. Such as icons for various characters switching. People completely disappearing from the game (one char sees the other as dead). Chars looking like their hps are gone but they are walking around just fine.. It's been interesting, we're going to test rebooting the game more frequently (We started playing the game at about 9pm and played till 3am, for the first hour or so no problems. After about half an hour to an 1 hour we started to see "Embermage" after 3 hours we started having to have the Embermage load every ten minutes). Then my Engie couldn't see the Embermage at all (it showed the Embermage as having died and he wasn't. The boss mob disappeared as well then I died to an invisible monster). I had to reload in.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Ferelwing » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:25 pm

Demo, jinx (perhaps one or the other of us should post). For the record, Demo and I are playing this game co-opt with my brother via our LAN. We're currently tracking how long into the game before we get the first Embermage event and then tracking how often it occurs afterwards. We'll be posting a time-line after we complete our "test" run.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Frozan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:59 pm

any update on this?

I just came to the forum because I was dying very fast with my friend engineer, and i found this. Its happen to me, i'm just lvl 30, we start playing 1 week ago. in elite.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Gobo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:09 am

BrianW wrote:Can folks verify that this issue is still happening with the latest patch?


Frozan wrote:I just came to the forum because I was dying very fast with my friend engineer, and i found this. Its happen to me, i'm just lvl 30, we start playing 1 week ago. in elite.


Yupp, confirmed.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby burntcrispy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:26 pm

Just wanted to post we have seen this happen with an outlander, when playing with a barbarian, no embermage present.

But that was many patches ago, as I can't get my brother to play with me anymore and I only play at home on lan. We where also experiencing other problems that might or might not be related.

His barbarian and other chars was also seeing bizarre instant death that seemed almost random.
Teleport to other players was breaking where one character couldn't teleport to the other but it would work for the other character, when the area was reloaded it might be fixed for a little while or, we also see this reverse sometimes which char can't teleport, or where neither could teleport to each other. (and yes this was in an area that should allow teleporting) These type of things seem most common in act 3 second half, main area swamps, but I don't think it is limited to them.

I am not sure if we seen these in the first few patches, but after an early patch it just seemed to get worse if anything. Can anybody confirm weather or not they seen this bug with embermage in the original game, no patches?
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Ferelwing » Wed May 01, 2013 9:32 am

I've also seen it with an Outlander and I posted the link to show it.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Cleric » Wed May 01, 2013 7:48 pm

I have had this problem happened also. I believe it is either a bug, or lost packet due to de-sync or port being blocked by firewall.
Just speculations though.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby 8BitGinno » Sun May 05, 2013 1:35 pm

Made an Embermage for the first time and I've started experiencing this problem. Searched the forums and it seems I'm not alone.

Whats worse is my Embermage is a melee tanky DPS, as in I fight close range. Doesn't mix well with this bug. :x

Any news on this? This seems like a huge issue if you can't really play an entire class online. Does this happen to every Embermage?
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby BrianW » Tue May 07, 2013 12:39 pm

Cleric wrote:I have had this problem happened also. I believe it is either a bug, or lost packet due to de-sync or port being blocked by firewall.
Just speculations though.


We're not sure about that. Many have reported that this also happens in single-player games, but we have definitely investigated along this line before.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby specterk » Wed May 08, 2013 4:55 am

Successfully reproduced! (... the BUG...)

A friend and I set out tonight to try to reproduce this bug, and I believe we've succeeded. She plays an Outlander, and I play an Embermage - and this bug has happened to us in every play session since release that's lasted more than an hour or so (and sometimes even in very short games). It has been driving us CRAZY! I don't think we've ever put so much time into solving a single problem with any one game.

EDIT:
Forgot to post what we ruled out before beginning our in-game testing:
- Port blocking (direct to modem with no routers; ISP--Comcast--not blocking any necessary IPs or ports)
- Windows Firewall (disabled completely)
- Other software firewall (bare bones processes only; used a fresh install of Win7 on dedicated partition, on both computers; only Steam, TL2 and system fundamentals installed)
- Mods (no mods used)
- Fragmentation/corruption (Steam, TL2 install and save folders all have 0 fragments; checked with Defraggler, Auslogics, and default Disk Defragmenter; fresh download/install via Steam)
- Page file (disabled)
- System memory (reverted o/c to default 1600 Mhz; 0 errors with 10-hour overnight tests using both OCCT--which also tested CPU--and memtest)

To clarify, these are the full list of symptoms that we have observed:
(The following *always* occur with the bug):
- Embermage player name is seen as generic "Embermage" by other players in-game.
- Embermage stats (as seen when inspected by another player) are reduced to their level 1 equivalents, plus any bonuses from gear.
- Embermage level (as seen when inspected by another player) is usually reduced to 1 once the bug appears, and then remains that way - but occasionally will fluctuate between level 1 and actual level (unknown why, but does not affect the stats portion of the bug).
- Embermage Ice Prison spell will become "solid" to other players, trapping them or prevent passage.

(The following *usually* occur with the bug, but not always):
- Embermage death messages will stop appearing for other players completely, and often stop appearing for the Embermage player as well (not a range issue).
- The other players' death messages will stop appearing for the Embermage, and often stop appearing to the other player(s) as well (not a range issue).
- One player or the other will appear to inexplicably and accidentally kill the other while in an unsafe area. No monsters need to be present, nor does combat need to be actively taking place, but this does seem to only occur shortly *after* periods of particularly drawn-out combat with many mobs on screen at one time. Usually occurs 10-30 seconds after the last mob is killed. (Untested theory: possibly due to desync issue with monsters who reflect damage?)

(The following *seldom* occur with the bug):
- The Embermage will sometimes get stuck in an arbitrary state of animation, most commonly idle (doing nothing) or a corpse (after dying), but sometimes will appear to the other player to be stuck mid-cast/attack, mid-stride, etc. This is only visible to the other players.
- Both players' clients will indicate that the other player has disconnected, but each player will actually remain in the game alone, in their own identical instance of the original session. Each player's game appears to function normally and bug-free at this point, much like a single player game. Either player can quit and re-join the other's game at this point. (Upon re-joining, the bug will have been temporarily resolved).

What causes it?:
- In an online game, note the "Messages Sent" and "Messages received" values shown when mousing over the white dot in the other player's portrait (top left of the UI); I'm not a network technician by any means, but if this is a network stat, my best guess is that it roughly translates to packet/instruction loss/desynch. (This is, of course, assuming that the "ideal" ratio would be 1:1. If not, well... my theory is probably wrong - but at least the results are a start). If this IS true, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that at at some point, enough "important" instructions will be lost enough times in succession to cause a significant and potentially unrecoverable desynchronization (assuming certain data must be streamed without interruption to maintain a functional session).
- Regardless of the specific numeric values of Sent/Received, the bug appeared like clockwork once the ratio of Sent:Received reached approximately 1.0 : 0.75 or 1.333_ . For us, this happened between 1 to 3 hours into our gaming sessions, but much more quickly when we deliberately increased our internet traffic. We were able to reproduce this three times in a row, while sitting in town doing absolutely nothing.
- As for what specifically is causing this discrepancy to occur, I have no idea.

Operating theory:
- We have observed that, regardless of the classes present in a game session, these Sent/Received values will generally start out very similar to each other (as we expect they should), and *very gradually* grow further apart over time. Presumably, even after many hours of playing, the differences in these two values will normally not be significant enough to cause problems. However, with an Embermage present, this divergent behavior is drastically magnified:
- We observed that, in every game session we played, the Embermage's "sent" value was always immediately dissimilar (higher) than the "received" value as soon as the game session began (as seen when mousing over the non-Embermage player's portrait, on the Embermage's client). If we switched characters, the trend held true; no matter whose Embermage was being played, it was always the one with the higher "sent" value as viewed from the Embermage's client, and there was always a discrepancy between the two values.
- If we played two Outlanders instead, these values generally stayed similar for the duration of the session. Likewise with Engineers, and Berserkers.
- (We have heard that others are experiencing the same issues with non-Embermage characters; I can only presume that whatever makes our Embermages "special" is not strictly isolated to the Embermage class - which, I suppose, makes sense. As for why it seems to occur *most often* with Embermages... I have no idea whatsoever).
- Over time, the difference between these two values increases, and eventually reaches a threshold which, we believe, is what causes the bug(s) to appear.
- While attempting to reproduce the bug, this threshold first occurred very near 120,000 Messages Sent/90,000 Messages Received, or an approximate ratio of 1.0(Sent) : 0.75(Received).
- Further tests concluded that, regardless of the specific numeric values of Sent/Received, the bug appeared like clockwork once the ratio of sent:received reached approximately 1.0/0.75 or 1.333_ . For us, this happened between 1 to 3 hours into our gaming session.
- (We deliberately increased our network traffic significantly after the first test, in an attempt to "encourage" more packet loss and hopefully make the bug appear sooner, and were successful. The final test resulted in the bug appearing at approximate sent/received values of 68,500/51,400 respectively).
CONCLUSION: Eventually, enough essential information from the Embermage's client is lost that the other client(s) "forget" its essential details, at which point it is assumed to be replaced by a template of some kind (level 1 non-hostile npc? - based on the Ice Prison weirdness).

What fixes it?:
- Making a new game. Either player can host; it appears to make no difference. (The bug can still re-occur).
- The Embermage joins a different game. Upon entering the new game, the bug will be resolved. (But can re-occur).
- The Embermage leaves and re-joins the existing game. Upon re-entering the original game, the bug will be resolved. (But can re-occur).
CONCLUSION: To truly solve the problem, find out why Embermages/characters are leaking!
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby BrianW » Thu May 09, 2013 10:17 am

specterk wrote:*snip*


Thanks! I'll run this past our network engineer.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby justinian » Thu May 09, 2013 10:50 am

(This is, of course, assuming that the "ideal" ratio would be 1:1. If not, well... my theory is probably wrong - but at least the results are a start).


Sadly, no. That would be true if you were somehow connected to yourself (such that you received every packet you sent). These numbers should diverge over time, because each client has different things to tell the other, and generally in any given situation one side will be more "talkative." (eg, the level owner will generally have more to tell the other players.)

(We deliberately increased our network traffic significantly after the first test, in an attempt to "encourage" more packet loss and hopefully make the bug appear sooner, and were successful. The final test resulted in the bug appearing at approximate sent/received values of 68,500/51,400 respectively).


At this point, I'd say it doesn't look like a networking bug (if you're not getting disconnected, then all messages that are sent are guaranteed to arrive), or a mod or system bug (given what you've tested), but a bug in the game itself where it's getting stuck not updating something. You've probably already sent this stuff to support, but if you can enable EXTRALOGGING, and cause the bug to happen as quickly as possible like you mentioned above, I'm sure that logfile would be helpful in tracking the bug down.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Tiamat » Thu May 09, 2013 11:47 am

Also, how did you increase network traffic to encourage more packet loss?

And could you send your save files in?
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby specterk » Fri May 10, 2013 11:00 pm

Tiamat wrote:Also, how did you increase network traffic to encourage more packet loss?

We each opened a few hi-res live streams from twitch, then began downloading and seeding 2 high-traffic torrents at maximum bandwidth - it seemed pretty effective at clogging up the pipes, so to speak.

justinian wrote:(This is, of course, assuming that the "ideal" ratio would be 1:1...)

As soon as I wrote that, I knew it didn't quite sound right :?. We did notice a small amount of divergence in these values when playing non-embermage characters, but the total difference rarely exceeded one or two thousand messages (out of up to a few hundred thousand total) even after several hours of play in the same game. Is it normal to experience such significantly- and consistently-different results based--seemingly--on whether or not an embermage is present in the game? That was what really caught my attention.

BrianW wrote:... but if you can enable EXTRALOGGING...

I won't have the chance to play again until Monday or Tuesday this coming week, but once I do I will definitely turn that on and send in the result, along with our saves.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby justinian » Sat May 11, 2013 5:34 pm

Is it normal to experience such significantly- and consistently-different results based--seemingly--on whether or not an embermage is present in the game? That was what really caught my attention.


Hmm, the biggest factor there should be who owns the level.. if one person consistently ends up being the level owner, they'll be sending many more messages to everyone else. Which class you're playing shouldn't affect that, though perhaps different play-styles of the different classes cause level ownership to be more lopsided. Do you find the connection to the embermage to be consistently sending way more or way less than it's receiving? Or is it sometimes more, sometimes less?
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby specterk » Sat May 11, 2013 6:50 pm

justinian wrote:Do you find the connection to the embermage to be consistently sending way more or way less than it's receiving?

In our case, the Embermage (generally me) always ends up sending way more than it receives, after even only a few minutes of play - and even when just loitering around in an area and doing nothing (i.e. not really "playing"). As a game session continues, the *rate* at which the Embermage "sends" (and, accordingly, the observed difference between sent/received) will also increase steadily; eventually, the Embermage will be sending as many as a few thousand messages per second compared to other player's few dozen/hundred, and it will only continue to accelerate more from there until the bug occurs.

Both of these behaviors were always present and consistent with an Embermage in play, regardless of which one of us actually hosted the game, (though my friend--the Outlander--is generally online first, and is thus almost always the host).
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby specterk » Mon May 13, 2013 1:47 am

I reproduced the bug again, and have submitted a ticket including all relevant information I could think of (near-exact time of bug occurrence for log reference, etc), as well as both clients' log files (both w/EXTRALOGGING enabled), and both players' character files, sorted separately.

Ticket Title: Specterk's "Level 1 Embermage" bug follow-up: save files, logs
Ticket Ref: AY7B-HFJM-27WB
Submitted: Mon, 13th May 2013 2:42 am
Category: Torchlight II > Gameplay Issues
Support username: specterk

Good luck! :)
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby BrianW » Wed May 15, 2013 3:58 pm

Just an update: We're still looking into this. Thanks to those who have sent in log files with EXTRALOGGING enabled.
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby LostBones » Thu May 16, 2013 1:00 pm

I will add one thing.

I did use the console command to add repsec potion ( they are noted as CHEATED ITEMS in my shared stash )

Maybe using cheat code like items, money or levelXP killall etc.. break something a cause the bug ?
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Re: Level 1 Embermage in multiplayer.

Postby Xinoth » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:49 am

Just to let you know this is still an issue, i doubt that anything i can add will help, but if you would like me to send anything let me know.

Embermage character was created on Sunday 21st July, to play with my friend in 2 player co-op, he plays as an Outlander, we had the insta death issue happen several times and soon realised that reconnecting solved the issue. Later we were joined by an engineer and my friends noticed the whole "level 1 embermage" issue. Also when bugged my friend can see me moving around as usual but cant see me casting any spells.

I created the game for him to join, It happens fairly regular, last night it maybe occured twice during a few hours of play.
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