Ruminations

[Perictione]

... and then find out that those people your supplying weapons too don't really give a f!@# about who's supplying them. god help you if you try to supply the people who create the weapons.. everyone hates you then...

Welcome to the reality of zero-sum game structures that promote unbridled egotism, Acrylik. Fun, wasn't it? In reality, corporate culture is pretty much same - everyone reading this note remember Enron Corporation? If not, google it. The point here is Great American Corporations don't happen by chance, neither do "banker-driven economic melt-downs."

Would you wish to see yet another MMO whose base structure promotes the same silliness? Maybe, but I certainly don't. I'd rather see a mix of cooperation and competition. It's the balance of egoism and egotism (or, more generally, inner-oriented selfishness versus outer-oriented selfishness) that promotes environmental and economic sustainability.

But that's just my opinion.

That being said, if you're going to try being social in any MMO, I can almost guarantee you that you'll find way more juvenile morons than sensible people.

And does this particularly distinguish the MMO's socio-cultural environment from that of the real world's? The most likely answer is no... although I'd have to agree with you, A, that folks on-line tend to be a tad less civil than folks I meet face-to-face. Why so? The relative anonymity of the WWW allows for a greater sense of freedom from the subtle social sanctions that we're all heir to when we go about our daily lives. One click, and you're gone; real life (happily) lacks that feature.

How to counter this attitude of antisocial idiocy? Well, I honestly don't know (George Bushes and Tony Blairs will forever continue to happen, you know?), but I continue on in my merry way setting the best example I feel is possible. And a large part of that example includes cultivating alliances and friendships whereever and whenever possible. Like calls to like, I believe.

I'd be the first to admit I'm not always successful, but then that's what makes this effort a worthwhile pursuit: Sometimes I am successful, and the example I set for myself and others is gradually, painfully adopted. *smiles cheerfully* I figure, in the long run, tolerance is likely to win over intolerace because, simply, ultimately tolerance is patient if not forebearing while intolerance is impatient and ultimately self-defeating. Perhaps I'm being overly PollyAnnish stating this, but if I find one good companion after sorting through 10,000 not so good companions then I consider my efforts as being entirely worthwhile.

As I remarked elsewhere, I believe a Torchlight-themed MMO could be a huge success if the underlying structure of the game is re-thought to not only provide 'heaps o' fast-paced action with more enemies per square inch than other competitor's games' but also something a bit more thoughtful: a functional, functioning society.

Again, great posts everyone! Please keep jotting down your thoughts and adding to this thread! I sincerely appreciate having the advantage of insight to your past gaming experiences.

- P.

[Acalanatha]

@Zidders: I know my role, and I play it well. I defend those whom I choose to. From player-killers and mobs alike. And when I choose to be the bad guy... well, I can be so irritating you'd want to kick me in the groin. I don't mock those I kill, but I stalk and kill them repeatedly. And I pace myself, so it doesn't become 'harassment', and I don't get myself banned for that. On a happier note (if you close an eye): Runic might be able to pull off just providing cosmetic items in the cash shop because of the good rep they've built up, and people actually want to support their F2P MMO. Who knows?

The relative anonymity of the WWW allows for a greater sense of freedom from the subtle social sanctions that we're all heir to when we go about our daily lives. One click, and you're gone; real life (happily) lacks that feature.

Exactly. People bother to be civilized in real life. Real life confrontations are harder from which to just 'log off'.

To be honest, the society formed by any group of people online is more likely to be dysfunctional (but functioning). Especially on any game that involves PvP. Because I'm an avid PvPer. PvP creates problems just as it solves them. Like conflict in real life, but with far less severe consequences. Which is why I used to create pure PKing characters. Because I can PK, and because I'm very good at it (I'll PM you links to a few videos later lol). If you want to make potions/fish/craft/cook/etc stuff, you'll have to step into the open world to gather materials. And if it's a PK server, well... someone will be waiting to welcome you. Those materials and money I share with my partners? Covered in someone's virtual blood most of the time. I don't kill people for materials, but if people try to kill me... yeah, I ain't going down without a fight.

Maybe a hybrid world? The parts where you do your 'living' are non-pk, whereas the others are pk? That might work. But you'll probably have to exclude smithing and tailoring from it. Because the ragers will be like "YOU HIDE IN YO CAVE CRAFTING BETTER CRAP THAN I FARM? NO FAIR!" And if you outright say "NO PK" to every part, you're turning away a very profitable crowd of players.

Yes, the theme of this post is 'player killing and you: the social side of murder'. Truth is, I admire you and your cheery ways, P. You know me well enough to know that I'm no ray of sunshine myself LOL.

[Perictione]

Maybe a hybrid world?

Acalanatha:

Maybe. Or maybe the MMO ought to have an in-game police force

Setting the Vanquishers aside for a moment (they'd be an obvious choice,wouldn't they?), doesn't it make some sort of sense to have a recognizable justice system in place too? Imagine the possibilities and the requirements of such a dynamic! I think it would be terrific to be able to post 'WANTED!' posters here and there, not to mention having a tribunal system that's empowered to lock-up the bad boys permanently (i.e., locking the character, or for for particularly egregious violations banning the account entirely)... or, perhaps, setting them out on suicide missions.

As always, I'm looking forward to everyone else's comments on this topic!

- P.

P.S. Yep, I'm definitely going to be hiding behind you, A! And I'm certain I won't be alone

[Acalanatha]

Maybe. Or maybe the MMO ought to have an in-game police force

Setting the Vanquishers aside for a moment (they'd be an obvious choice,wouldn't they?), doesn't it make some sort of sense to have a recognizable justice system in place too? Imagine the possibilities and the requirements of such a dynamic! I think it would be terrific to be able to post 'WANTED!' posters here and there, not to mention having a tribunal system that's empowered to lock-up the bad boys permanently (i.e., locking the character, or for for particularly egregious violations banning the account entirely)... or, perhaps, setting them out on suicide missions.

Guards, bounties and jails have been done, and they do add a delicious taste to the game. Many bounties have funded some of my in-game projects (I once started a "Dress a Healer a Day" campaign, during which I... uh... bought vanity items for a different healer everyday. Most people laughed, some joined in. Was great fun. My partner in the game didn't mind at all). Guards that are killable don't really do the trick, but those that can't be killed are just boring (Conquer Online and Flyff had amusing guards). Jails are nice, but permanently? You're as evil as I am! Letting them log in just to stare at their eternally trapped sprites lol.

As always, I'm looking forward to everyone else's comments on this topic!

That hurt, P. Everyone else's but mine? Just kidding.

P.S. Yep, I'm definitely going to be hiding behind you, A! And I'm certain I won't be alone

Haven't decided if I'm going nice guy or bad guy this time around. xD

[Zidders]

What you guys are talking about sounds like Fallen Earth...tho FE has gotten a bit too PVP friendly for my tastes. Too bad. Also, early Star Wars Galaxies, before Sony went and emasculated it.

[Silverbane]

If it were possible, I'd like to adopt a role that's traditionally performed by a nonplayer character - that of quest-giver, or cleric, or enchanter, or blacksmith... or even the operator of a funky tea house and crystal shop.

I think Runic could make this work maybe something to this nature (ish)? I do not know maybe not a great example.
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/salem

[TheLurker]

Crafting, and virtual real estate...sounds like what you really want is a high fantasy version of Second Life.

While this may appeal to some, I'm not the type of person who chooses to immerse myself too heavily into a gaming environment long-term. I find I'm having too much fun in real life to want to try and supersede it within a virtual one. The occasional pick-up game with a few folks or offline play, sure; persistent online communities that try to mirror real world social and economic conventions, not so much.

Even with the most carefully crafted game rules in place (and separate PvP/PvM servers, etc.), I see too much potential for abuse due to human nature. While there's nobility and industry in the individual, en masse our track record is not so great.

Without a fence to keep 'em out, one encourages the dogs to lie down with the sheep - until they become hungry, that is.

...that folks on-line tend to be a tad less civil than folks I meet face-to-face. Why so? The relative anonymity of the WWW allows for a greater sense of freedom from the subtle social sanctions that we're all heir to when we go about our daily lives.

Online, society is much like it exists in Lord of the Flies.

Though perhaps without the coconuts.

(Nuts? Yes. Coco? Er, not really.)

Perhaps I'm being overly PollyAnnish stating this, but if I find one good companion after sorting through 10,000 not so good companions then I consider my efforts as being entirely worthwhile.

Good luck in your search.

Don't forget to put on your waterproof wading overalls and heavy boots.

I've been wandering aimlessly through the threads in this forum this morning...

A spider wanders aimlessly within the warmth of a shadow
Not the regal creature of border caves
But the poor, misguided, directionless familiar
Of some obscure Scottish poet

- Marillion, Misplaced Childhood

(No sub-text here, you simply reminded me of this verse, and I decided to 'share'.)

Well, I could continue for many more hours... but my morning is rapidly getting away from me (and I very much want to get out on to the ski trails! New snow!), but I thought it would be nice to get this topic underway, and so here is my contribution.

New snow, you say?

That trumps all. Haven't been black n' blue in a couple o' years myself (Whistler); my ski goggles have been collecting more dust than a copy of Shakespeare's Greatest Plays at a NASCAR souvenir shop. Time to correct that, methinks.

Nothing like getting back at the end of the day for a nice hot cocoa (or Irish Coffee, is one is so inclined), and a soak in the tub, either.

I know a property agent in SF that drives the four hours every weekend up to Tahoe during snow season. While I'm not that dedicated... - I understand.

[Zidders]

Crafting, and virtual real estate...sounds like what you really want is a high fantasy version of Second Life.

While this may appeal to some, I'm not the type of person who chooses to immerse myself too heavily into a gaming environment long-term. I find I'm having too much fun in real life to want to try and supersede it within a virtual one. The occasional pick-up game with a few folks or offline play, sure; persistent online communities that try to mirror real world social and economic conventions, not so much.
)

Cheap thrills are all some of us can afford. Different strokes for different folks, that's all. Just because it's not your thing doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. If it weren't for talk city on webtv back in the early 2000's and Second Life circa 2009, I wouldn't have met either of my partners. I've been with kurzar irl for over ten years now, and we've been with kat for over three. I don't see any difference between spending time getting to know people in an online enviornment and meeting people in real life. People in real life have just as much a chance of turning out to be fake as someone you meet online does.

Meeting good people, making friends, it's not something you can compartmentalize. You can't say it's better to meet people oin real life than it is online, or vice versa. True friendship can come from ANYwhere, at any time, and usually comes from places you least expect it to. The internet is no better or worse than real life, as far as assholes go. It's about as 'Lord of the Flies' as the real world is, when it comes right down to it. Believe it or not, I find that people tend to be a lot more honest about themselves-at least, how they really are-online.

"Perhaps I'm being overly PollyAnnish stating this, but if I find one good companion after sorting through 10,000 not so good companions then I consider my efforts as being entirely worthwhile."

So what if it's pollyannish or not? It doesn't change the fact that it's true. People being less civil online isn't a detriment, it makes identifying the assholes a hundred times easier. Most of the time, you have to go through all the trouble of getting to know someone before you find out they're a dick.

Sorry for the off topic post.

[wolfmane]

Meeting good people, making friends, it's not something you can compartmentalize. You can't say it's better to meet people oin real life than it is online, or vice versa. True friendship can come from ANYwhere, at any time, and usually comes from places you least expect it to. The internet is no better or worse than real life, as far as assholes go. It's about as 'Lord of the Flies' as the real world is, when it comes right down to it. Believe it or not, I find that people tend to be a lot more honest about themselves-at least, how they really are-online.

"Perhaps I'm being overly PollyAnnish stating this, but if I find one good companion after sorting through 10,000 not so good companions then I consider my efforts as being entirely worthwhile."

So what if it's pollyannish or not? It doesn't change the fact that it's true. People being less civil online isn't a detriment, it makes identifying the assholes a hundred times easier. Most of the time, you have to go through all the trouble of getting to know someone before you find out they're a dick.

Sorry for the off topic post.

Well said.

[TheRani]

I generally prefer games where any character class is capable of leveling up and progressing through the game solo.

I used to play a browser MMORPG for a while there, where crafting stuff gave you experience points, and you could level up all the way to level 1000 just by harvesting materials and creating things, and you could make money by selling your handiwork in shops. Heck, you could even own land in the game, and build your own dungeons for others to explore. I got a character to something like level 20 there doing almost nothing but chopping down trees. It was called Lands of Hope. It shut down a couple of months ago because it got hacked though.

But yes, it's certainly possible to build an MMORPG like that. Whether that MMORPG should be the Torchlight one is another question. The closest to what you want that I could think of in a Torchlight MMO would be a fisherman. Just fish all day, chat with your buddies, and make a living selling fish and footwear! I don't think it would be very emotionally fulfilling being a merchant in Torchlight. Unless you really like dogs. "Ah, Spot! Nice to see you again. Tell your master I said hello!" "Fluffy! I see you're back again. That's quite a haul!"

[Zidders]

The closest to what you want that I could think of in a Torchlight MMO would be a fisherman. Just fish all day, chat with your buddies, and make a living selling fish and footwear! I don't think it would be very emotionally fulfilling being a merchant in Torchlight. Unless you really like dogs. "Ah, Spot! Nice to see you again. Tell your master I said hello!" "Fluffy! I see you're back again. That's quite a haul!"

I spent the last two years of my time in Everquest crafting. I barely EVER stepped into a combat situation with my cleric unless it was a guild event or I was doing some dungeon instances with friends/guildies.

The crafting system in that came is pretty insane, or at least it was back when I last played (around 2007) Brewing, cooking, smithing, enchanting, etc. The only reason you needed to level up was so that you could go up in tradeskill level and gain access to areas where you could farm rare materials.


EDIT:Lands of Hope appears to be back, btw http://www.forlornonline.com/

[TheRani]

EDIT:Lands of Hope appears to be back, btw http://www.forlornonline.com/

That's the new Phoenix Edition. It's the beta of a new version of the game. This one doesn't have actual classes like the other one did. It's skill-based. I miss the classes, really. I went from playing a level 1000 vampire bombardier who was able to blast monsters with heavy munitions and throw grenades in the old game, to a wussy little generic human who can stab things with daggers and mine ore. Not really falling in love with the new one yet.

[Perictione]

Good luck in your search.

*Diogenes hold his... errr, her... lantern high*

Manes? Is that you? Sorry about that bit in Athens. I was just trying to make a point!


-P.

[Zidders]

Hmm..Diogenes:Cynical, trollish, lack of respect for other peoples personal space, was always broke, masturbated in public and admired dogs a bit TOO much.


I think I ran into him at Furfright once.

[Perictione]

Zidders:

Keep in mind who was reporting Diogene's bizarre and scandalous behaviors: character assassination was just as popular in 4 BC as it was in the years that followed.

For a classic example of this "routine," consider the life and death of Hypatia of Alexandria, and all that followed that awful event


- P.

[TheLurker]

Good luck in your search.

*Diogenes hold his... errr, her... lantern high*

Manes? Is that you? Sorry about that bit in Athens. I was just trying to make a point!

-P.

"Ahh, an Educated Woman."

"That, of course, rules out the possibility of you being a field agent."

(Inside joke. Actually, it's well known - in certain circles - that the OP double majored in History and Engineering, subsequently received her Masters Degree in Awesomeness, before being recruited by [REDACTED]...and has done some work in, let's call it, 'Corporate Restructuring'.)

(And you will never know how many languages she *really* speaks.)

[Zidders]

"Ahh, an Educated Woman."

Come on, you two. We don't want any trouble in here. Not in any language.
8)

[Vodage]

Upon reading the OP, I was hoping to have something to contribute to this conversation as well. Unfortunately, all I can do is try to type with one hand while the other holds my jaw in place. Amazing! Great stuff to think/talk about.

If there's at least an opinion I could share, it would be this: Part of why I like Torchlight so much is its simplicity.

Sure, you can draw up charts and crunch numbers like in any RPG, but when it comes down to it, the gameplay is fairly straightforward. I'd love to see this carry over into the MMO. I'm not saying that it couldn't with human NPCs, just saying that most good ideas are simple.

[Perictione]

I'm not saying that it couldn't with human NPCs, just saying that most good ideas are simple.

I do thank you kindly for your uncommonly warm-hearted compliment, Vodage. All I can say is that I sincerely hope you post more frequently!

- P.

[automated]

I wouldn't mind being a merchant in a great mmo. I would love to be able to login to a server and go to my 'shop'. I would be able to control my little cash shop, and maybe even have a few 'employees' to cover the shifts when I wouldn't be able to play. I would think it could be a little sketchy because people could under-cut pricing all the time. Not sure of a way around this. Capitalism is awesome!

Grinding endgame bosses is fun, but for me sometimes I just like to hang out. Not get naked and teabag each other like some post, but more just sip my coffee and sell some 'wares to patrons in-game. Who wouldn't like to barter for a bag of holding?