What could you see yourself paying for?

[Jaknet]

From what I can remember Runic saying quite a while ago. Their idea at the time was for anything bought via in-game shops or however would not give the paying customer any advantage over the player who has the time and plays for free. So no Uber weapons/armour. Or at least nothing that cannot be got by anyone else anyway.

Whether it will end up being mainly cosmetic items we will have to see, as I'm sure Perfect World will also have their own ideas of what should/should not be sold.

Still if it does become a case of rich players get the better game. Then I'm going back to the SP game and delete the MMO, but I cannot see this happening from Runic... Perfect World I have no previous experience of to comment about.

[Omnifas]

I just have a feeling that the Runic Games and Perfect World partnership is an experiment for Perfect World Entertainment, I believe they know that their "Asia Market" influenced Cash Shop isn't all to popular in the Western Market, so the "experiment" is to see how a "Western Marketing" influenced Cash Shop will fair. Fact being that there actually hasn't been any Pure Cash Shops designed by Western Publishers yet. Minus anything that has optional subscriptions, etc.

The proper business strategy IMO would be to let Runic Games handle the Cash Shop decisions of the Western Localized versions, and Perfect World Handle those decisions in the Asian Localizations because of each sides understanding of their perspective markets.

[Webbstre]

The proper business strategy IMO would be to let Runic Games handle the Cash Shop decisions of the Western Localized versions, and Perfect World Handle those decisions in the Asian Localizations because of each sides understanding of their perspective markets.

Exactly. Each group of people has difference ideas of what is acceptable.

[JiPi]

I think there is two main rules for item shops, at least, for me...
1. Permanent things
2. Small prices (I would buy a couple of things at like 1$ to 2$, more than that, I might stick with the f2p only...)

Here are some ideas...

1. Bind on account items with +XP
2. Extra bag space
3. Shared stash (small, medium, large, x-large)
4. Permanent EXOTIC mount (we need to be able to get one without paying...else it'll end up like Runes of Magic...I wouldn't even play it, unless mounts are like 1$ or 2$ for a PERMANENT one...maybe then I would rethink...but it would be limit...
5. Luck potions (like stack or 20) or XP potions
6. Depending on number of classes and slots, I may buy more character slots for cheap price


I also love the idea of hadati : "One prestige class BUT this would only be unlocked once you had a level capped character and possibly completed a very long quest chain or meta-achievement."

An unlockable class, but you could buy access to it right away

Also, the possibility to start a character at certain level, let's say cap would be at 50, start class at like 20 once you've got a capped character...I would pay 2$ or 3$ to start at lvl 20, if the first 20 levels are all the way identical, else, I would level and get tru new content !

Also love the Sabotender idea : "I think upon purchasing our first item we should get a free "I spent money on a free game!" perk, maybe it could give us a 1% discount in ingame stores"

Pets would be a good idea, but I doubt I would buy them myself...


The idea of selling items at auction house for the micro transaction currency (let's call them Runic Bucks). So we could sell epic things for like 2 Runics Bucks...people would pay for them, then the seller could spend RBs on something he wouldn't have without this...


That's pretty much it for now...good luck Runic ! Let's hope we'll see a alpha/beta not too far in 2010 !











Finally, this is about almost exactly my point of view :

so, micro payment is where we're heading... fine, let's deal with it.

1) I will not spend any money for temporary benefits.

- When spending money i really appreciate to have something, wheter i will use it or not. So, 2$ for gaining double XP for a day or having increased item drops doesn't make me feel comfortable. However, other gamers may have a different opinion about that.
- Also 'renting' items, mounts or other prestige objects for a certain amount of time seems to be a ripoff. I give my money, i receive an item. After a week the item disappears, but my money is still gone. Weird.

2) I would love to spent my money on additional persistent content.

- Paying for additional instances/levels that enlarge the world and add more options to hunt for items would be great. Even if not necessary to improve my character i could still 'donate' some money to the company and get something in return.
- New skins for mounts or altered effects on enchanted weapons would also be an option and, of course, the standard stash enhancement. Increasing stash or paying for the option to use one stash for all characters on one account to make 'muleing' easier would be fine for me.
- Additional character slots would be a good idea, if new characters on a account would get some benefits from older characters that already played through the complete storymode, it would be an serious alternative to a simple additional account. However, this depends on the benefits granted for new characters.
- Naming items, when I finally crafted or found my perfect weapon/item why not paying 0.50$ to give it a certain name or add the name of the character wielding it. (i know this is 'stolen' from D2 ^^)
- New character classes/races would also be an option, starting with 3-4 free classes that offer a wide variety of gameplay, why not pay 5$ to able to have a 'dark' mage with accordingly altered skills and effects instead of the normal mage. or even a complete new class, that is not totally overpowered.

3) Don't be too greedy

- A healthy balance is required, to have a appealing repertory in the micro payment shop, to attract customers and have enough content and comfort in the game to make it a entertaining experience for users who don't want (or can) spend money on a hack'n'slay game. Good luck with achieving that task!
- Offer plenty of different options to pay for the content, so there are no barriers for new customers that might discourage them from spending their money.
- Don't forget to add also free new remarkable content so noone gets the feeling only the micro payment users benefit from the development of the game, although they are the ones that leave their money.

Last but not least, give those people who own the original version of the SP game some goodies for the MP part, wheter it is a head start for the MMO and/or some additional ingame benefits.

[Seraphim]

Ugh please no mall shop.. I thought I heard Travis talking about a one fee game.. like diablo.. no mall shop please.. malls are for grindfest games..

[jamesL]

Ugh please no mall shop.. I thought I heard Travis talking about a one fee game.. like diablo.. no mall shop please.. malls are for grindfest games..

they've had the idea of a mall shop for the longest time, ever since Mythos
TorchLight mmo is going to have a mall shop, there is no doubt about it


read this current thread and this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29 to get more details

[Seraphim]

Ugh please no mall shop.. I thought I heard Travis talking about a one fee game.. like diablo.. no mall shop please.. malls are for grindfest games..

they've had the idea of a mall shop for the longest time, ever since Mythos
TorchLight mmo is going to have a mall shop, there is no doubt about it


read this current thread and this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29 to get more details

just because they've discussed it doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

[jamesL]

it IS going to happen
its not that they've just discussed it, its their whole business plan
PerfectWorld is paying them to develop the mmo
PerfectWorld is publishing the mmo

http://www.gamebunny.com/?page_id=4762

gamebunny:
The MMO will be free-to-play (like all Perfect World titles), correct? What sort of items will we see for sale? Any cosmetic items or pets?

Runic (Erich Schaefer):
Yes, the MMO will be based on the free-to-play with item sales model. While we don’t have many of these for-sale items specified yet, our philosophy is to not sell the best weapons, for instance. Everyone has access to the best loot. Instead we might offer items to help speed up your experience, leveling faster and adding to your luck in finding loot, and cosmetic items, game augmentations, etc. Pets and mounts will most likely play a part in the item-sales system, too, but we don’t have detailed plans, yet.

[Omnifas]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... tory=23442

East Meets West: The Monetization Model

With the Chinese approach to MMO operation tends to come the Asian approach to business model: "Yes, we intend to do the microtransactions model," says Schaefer. "Generally, I think Asia leads the world in figuring out monetization strategies for games."

"We feel like the item transaction model is going to be the standard model for MMOs even in the U.S. and Europe in the near future. It originally started out as just being something that [made it] easy to combat piracy... turns out it has a lot of really good advantages."

Schaefer says the team knew intuitively that the subscription model was "wrong" not only because it limits the number of player accounts, but it also locks the player into the game and obligates them to play continually else waste money.

"The item transaction model lets you have as many games as you like; you put it away if you're done with it, and then you haven't paid anything extra. You decide how much commitment you want to put into it."

jamesl's is more recent, mine mainly shows their support for the Micro-transaction system.

[Gash]

I would pay for:
- Different character models,
- Different mount models,
- Epic dungeons

I would envisage that the models would be purely cosmetic eg I could strut as the Satyr I always dream of, and not care that there are no racial bonuses etc.

Epic dungeons I'd imagine being somehting like from Mythos, except there we were buying wiht in game cash. In this instance I'd expect them to be quite cheap, lasting maybe 24 hrs, that you could log in, buy your epic dungeon token, grab a party of your best mates and jump on in

I'd be dissapointed if the item shop was for more trivial items like hair dye etc :S

[FFdream]

I would love to see-

Spirit Weapons, Pet like weapons that grow in level that you can customize what they grow into. Like a sword spirit that u can choose to be 1 handed or 2 handed through growth options.

Pets that grow/change, They change apperance and special abilities as they grow higher in lvl. Like a dog that can become a hellhound with an flame aura that damages enemies around the pet.

Class Change abilities, being able to switch classes. Starting at lvl 1 leveling, and being able to change to another class reverting to lvl 1, while the class u were retains all lvl information skills etc.

[jamesL]

a potion that increases the damage of all monsters within a 100 foot radius by 100% for 20 seconds

hey guys, can I join your party ?
that would be awesome,
have the potion but don't tell anybody you plan on taking it, then in the middle of the last big mob pop it down
that would be so funny to see people's reactions

[Webbstre]

a potion that increases the damage of all monsters within a 100 foot radius by 100% for 20 seconds

hey guys, can I join your party ?
that would be awesome,
have the potion but don't tell anybody you plan on taking it, then in the middle of the last big mob pop it down
that would be so funny to see people's reactions

Kind of reminds me of a particularly evil thing my friend did on a server for some version of the game Demise. You can buy monsters (who are tamed) as pets, or tame them yourselves, and buy or sell them in a shop in town. For some reason the end boss (or something around the end boss) was in the shop, so my friend bought it, walked into the first room of the dungeon and set it free. Apparently people running back to town started screaming "OH MY GOD!" and the like. A newbie has never been more devastated in any game, I am sure.

[Toonicker]

A game that's as Hack Proof as possible, if there's one thing that ruins an ARPG like this for me, it's item hacking, Skill hacking and Item duping. This was the one turn off for me when it came to Titan Quests multiplayer.


Hopefully we get a secure server with character saves on their end to pervent as much of that nonsense as possible. that I'd pay for ;P

[Needlehawk]

Turbine has now made DDO a f2p game with cash shop options, instead of a subscription game. I'm sure that the Runic developers will pay attention to what works and doesn't work for Turbine, since it will probably say a lot about what will and won't work for Torchlight.

Turbine has posted the following about their f2p business model (go to "learn more" on that page):

What's This DDO Store You Speak of?

Funny you should ask. The DDO Store is a vendor within DDO Unlimited, where you can spend your hard-fought points or real, hard-earned dollars (if you wish) to enhance your gaming experience. While the best gear can still only be found by adventuring in-game, the store offers a bevy of convenience items, in addition to premium adventure packs, extra character slots, hirelings, potions, unique character customization, and much more than this page will allow us to list! Items in the DDO Store are purchased with Turbine Points.

Will I Still Be Able to Play and Enjoy the Game Without Buying Items from the Turbine/DDO Store, or Is That My Only Option for Gaining Weapons, Armor, Potions, and Other Battle Goodies?

You are absolutely under NO obligation to purchase anything from the DDO Store in order to play and progress in the game. Gear is available for gamers who would like to improve some aspect of their in-game experience right away. While the store offers items of convenience, content, and character customization, there is no substitute for the glory and rewards that await you in the dungeons of DDO Unlimited.

If I Don't Have a DDO Subscription, How Much Game Content Can I Access?

Frankly, that all depends on what kind of gamer you are. Free content is widely available for low-level characters and becomes sparser as a character's level increases. However, additional premium adventure packs are available for purchase through the DDO Store. Once the adventure pack has been added to your account, it will be permanently available to all your characters.

So, in other words, it looks like they are planning on the following:

• Early content is all free. Later on, a lot of the content will be offered as "adventure packs" that you need to purchase. Once purchased, any character on your account can use them permanently.
  
• They are targeting convenience, content and character customization for purchasable items.
  
• The best gear can still only be found by adventuring....purchasing items gets you convenience, more character slots, more content and character customization....but not the best gear.

This looks like a pretty good model to me, and pretty close to what people here are saying. I'm planning on playing DDO and will be happy to give my impressions about how the cash shop works (or doesn't).

[Webbstre]

Honestly, that sounds like an awful business model to me. With restricted areas it basically forces you to pay or you run into the invisible wall keeping you from the rest of the content in the game. I'm pretty sure Volbard, and maybe others, have said they don't want to do anything like that with Torchlight.

[Omnifas]

I gotta agree with Webbstre, but that concept fits well with DDO specifically because DDO is a Hybrid System last I checked, where you can be a subscriber and get 500 points a month every month you are subscribed and get all the content included, or you can use the F2P option and buy points to buy the content you want.

[Needlehawk]

Well, I guess I'm confused about what the objection is. If you play casually, you'll probably never run out of content (unless I completely misunderstand what they are saying). If you play a LOT, you'll eventually get to the point where you'll have to make a choice between running the few available free dungeons at max level or making a one-time payment for additional content. Is the expectation that everyone will be able to access all the content in TL for free forever? I doubt that that will work. I think it's unrealistic to expect to play a game obsessively for long periods of time without paying anything for the content. Even D2 made you pay for the game upfront...and then was a game that you played limited content over and over again on a free server. D3 doesn't sound much different.

I guess my mental image of a f2p game is one in which everything at release is free, but any additional content will cost you a small one-time fee. Thus, if WoW had been built on this model, there would indeed have been very little to do at the end of the game unless you bought the additional instances. Is that not how all the rest of you are envisioning this?

[ombra]

Hmm, i think the idea of buying additional content, when i want to play it isn't that bad. The question is, do i want to buy it one-time and play it forever or do i want to buy it every time and play it with my friends (Mythos approach) and after that run the map is lost... I don't know, but personally a one-time fee is for me the better approach, but then you will probably have to make everybody who wants to play it pay for that content.

IIRC in Mythos there was a one time play through map system, that only one person had to pay. I tend to pay a little more but but have the stuff forever though... But i am also okay with the one-time approach if the fee is appropriate.

[Webbstre]

Warning: The following examples cannot be verified by anyone other than a developer at the time of the MMO's production or release, but the ideas behind the examples are probably accurate.

The philosophy that the Runic Devs had that has carried over from Mythos, is that they want a game that is Free to Play, doesn't restrict you from any content (by content I mean zones/acts/areas, classes, and loot), but has a shop that lets you do things that are socially fun. These kinds of things can include (some from my imagination and some as examples of what we have heard from the development of Torchlight and Mythos) items that temporarily increase the rate of experience you get, give temporary randomized dungeons with special bonuses - such as better magic find, increased loot, more experience, etc - that you can play together in with your friends, visual things like artistic enhancements for your equipment, and bonus mounts and pets. Things that would not be included in the shop would be access to higher end areas (meaning there are few or NO higher level areas without paying), any kind of loot that makes you or a pet uber, buffs, permanent skill or stat enhancements, or basically anything that gives an unfair advantage over other people.

Basically, the idea is that no one wants to feel like they are unfairly singled out in a game by being stopped by an invisible wall of "you must pay," or that someone basically gets screwed in leveling or some other way if they don't pay. Games that force an endless grind on you to level just to encourage you to purchase experience potions, or games that force you to have a teeny tiny inventory so that you have to pay to expand it, these aren't the kind of games I can see any of the Runic devs approving of, to be honest. At one point I remember someone saying during the Mythos development that if there aren't any fun, social and acceptable items in the microtransaction shop, then they aren't doing their job very well. There is no longer any source from the old forums to quote from, but that one line pretty much sums up the philosophy of everything I have heard from any of the Runic Devs.

However, for the interest of fairness, there are two unknown variables:
1 - How will working with Perfect World influence the microtransaction shop?
2 - What will be the developer's philosophy for developing some kind of Expansion packs?

The first one I have no experience to draw upon. The second question I am simply not sure of.

Personally, if they have a full, complete game for free and then release continents, worlds, etc as paid expansion packs I can see it working out well. However, if that expansion pack included new game systems, skills, classes... well I don't know how well that would go over. Classes would be iffy. Skills would probably be hotly debated. Systems, such as if they waited until an expansion to implement crafting, I think would be a step too far. I honestly can't see them doing that either. Rather, I can imagine that if they introduced new systems with an expansion pack they would probably open it up for everyone, and classes might or might not be released to everyone.

Hopefully that clears up what I tried to say earlier.