A very important kickstarter

[Silvernis]

On more serious note, if you actually look into the data the games women play are different than the games males play (in regards to the huge more recent boon in female gamers).

This. This is my issue when people start pulling out statistics. Much as I love the idea of more girls getting into games, we have to remember that a middle-aged woman who plays Bejeweled for a half-hour every night before she goes to bed is NOT a real gamer, not in the sense we're talking here. Including people like her in any sort of "real" gaming survey is just flat-out silly, and it artificially inflates the data.

[DarkTails]

Lol, and thus an episode of Attack of the Show is born, trying to define what a "gamer" is.

[Silvernis]

Forget I said anything, lol. I am firmly of the opinion that Facebook games and the like are an entirely different (and inferior) species of game compared to, say, Skyrim or Torchlight or TF2, but that's just my biased opinion.

[coppermouth]

You guys are being a bit too much. You need people who challenge overall stereotypes in all media for all types of people to be involved. Yes, overall videogames is an industry dominated by men, but more women are playing games than ever before. And the number will keep on growing.

This is the point. The point is women should have as much of a voice as men does. Even if they're in the minority. If some guys want scantily clad women in every one of their games, than it's not wrong for women to not want that. You make the argument, "if you don't like it, don't play it". That is an easy statement to make, especially if you're a guy. But if you're a woman that loves holding a controller(or a mouse) than you should be allowed to challenge the industry standard. Minorities should always have a voice, it's true in society and it should be true in the gaming world.

Look at the film industry. Yes there are alot of 'hot' girls in movies. But you also have women that are leading characters that are not the 'boobylicious' type of actress. And most award winning actresses are not that type.

I honestly believe that while the games these days are still pretty objectifying, it has gotten better overall. Yes, there are still scantily clad girls in games, but not as much as the 90's and early 2000. Look at the newer games poised to come out, like beyond 2 souls(ellen paige is pretty much the opposite of sexy video game girl) or even the new Lara Croft(not like the double d chested heroine of yesterday).

Also, since people here are into torchlight, i'm assuming most of us are fans of the fantasy genre. Fantasy genre in general has a higher percentage of supersexy scantily clad women. That's is how it's been for a very long time, especially since the Frazetta days. But that doesn't mean it should be like that forever.
It's a catch-22, because, basically for the objectification to change we need more female developers and gamers. But how will we have more, if all they see is their gender being sterotyped?

No one wants to be told what not to do, what not to play. Gamers see it almost like censorship, and they feel anybody has the freedom to make and play what they want. Never will sexy, half naked girls fail to appear in video games. But I think that there just needs to be more options for female characters, rather than the same model that's been in place for a few decades now.

Besides, do we really need another game like DOA?

[KnuckleHead]

Once again, someone saying "more options" meanwhile advocating on behalf of people trying to remove options for other people.

"he point is women should have as much of a voice as men does."

They do, they can vote with their wallet like everyone else. I say it is wrong for *some* women to decide for everyone else (including other women) what should and shouldn't be in a video game. You know, there's women who do like that stuff too...it's not just men. A woman can hold that controller and play any game she wants, she can also ignore any game they wish.

I don't think anyone is against some women wanting certain types of character in games they play...the problem is when they also want to decide what *I* can play as well.

Minorities should have a voice, but it should not overpower my own just because they are a minority.

[mibuwolf]

You guys are being a bit too much. You need people who challenge overall stereotypes in all media for all types of people to be involved. Yes, overall videogames is an industry dominated by men, but more women are playing games than ever before. And the number will keep on growing.

This is the point. The point is women should have as much of a voice as men does. Even if they're in the minority. If some guys want scantily clad women in every one of their games, than it's not wrong for women to not want that. You make the argument, "if you don't like it, don't play it". That is an easy statement to make, especially if you're a guy. But if you're a woman that loves holding a controller(or a mouse) than you should be allowed to challenge the industry standard. Minorities should always have a voice, it's true in society and it should be true in the gaming world.

Look at the film industry. Yes there are alot of 'hot' girls in movies. But you also have women that are leading characters that are not the 'boobylicious' type of actress. And most award winning actresses are not that type.

I honestly believe that while the games these days are still pretty objectifying, it has gotten better overall. Yes, there are still scantily clad girls in games, but not as much as the 90's and early 2000. Look at the newer games poised to come out, like beyond 2 souls(ellen paige is pretty much the opposite of sexy video game girl) or even the new Lara Croft(not like the double d chested heroine of yesterday).

Also, since people here are into torchlight, i'm assuming most of us are fans of the fantasy genre. Fantasy genre in general has a higher percentage of supersexy scantily clad women. That's is how it's been for a very long time, especially since the Frazetta days. But that doesn't mean it should be like that forever.
It's a catch-22, because, basically for the objectification to change we need more female developers and gamers. But how will we have more, if all they see is their gender being sterotyped?

No one wants to be told what not to do, what not to play. Gamers see it almost like censorship, and they feel anybody has the freedom to make and play what they want. Never will sexy, half naked girls fail to appear in video games. But I think that there just needs to be more options for female characters, rather than the same model that's been in place for a few decades now.

Besides, do we really need another game like DOA?

Then fine. Challenge it. Don't remove the features that males cater towards, but ADD features. There's a difference. I'm all for fighting for rights, but the day you remove "sexual themes" from video games, is the day pigs fly. "Most" award winning actresses aren't that type? HAHA. None of 'em look ugly and/or fat. As for the boobs, that's just fantasy added to a video game. We're starting to see booby-sliders and different builds of women, but they are ALL skinny.

Games will change possibly if the buyers change. Documentary or video series will do little or nothing to affect developers and their market.

[Zidders]

Copper, thank you. I wish I could have said what i've been meaning to say as eloquently as you.

Folks, i'm not saying that there shouldn't ever be scantily clad women in games, or men. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't want to see more scantily clad guys. We live in a country where people have a right to make and enjoy many different kinds of entertainment. That's the whole point. While trying to stop people from stereotyping is a bit silly, the fact is that this sort of thing at least helps give people another way of looking at things and might eventually lead to women having just as many choices as men when it comes to entertainment.

At least it lets people see things from a different perspective and will maybe help give more women a voice in the industry and games to choose from should they prefer not to play games full of stereotypes. Giving people more choices is not a bad thing. I really wish i'd been able to put things the way Copper put them.

i Still think calling me a nazi was a bit uncalled for. Seriously, i'm just trying to make gaming a bit fairer for everyone, i'm not trying to force people to behave a certain way and i'm not trying to take away peoples choices, I just want people to be nicer to each other for crying out loud.

[mibuwolf]

i Still think calling me a nazi was a bit uncalled for. Seriously, i'm just trying to make gaming a bit fairer for everyone, i'm not trying to force people to behave a certain way and i'm not trying to take away peoples choices, I just want people to be nicer to each other for crying out loud.

All for fairness, but how do you appeal to women as much as men in FPS games and bloody/violence games? In fact, I would say most E-rated and T-rated games are for female gamers and children, moreso than men. M-rated is where men rule and it will stay that way for... YEARS. Inclusion is not in the best interest of most game companies under rated M titles. Just sayin'

[coppermouth]

Once again, someone saying "more options" meanwhile advocating on behalf of people trying to remove options for other people.

"he point is women should have as much of a voice as men does."

They do, they can vote with their wallet like everyone else. I say it is wrong for *some* women to decide for everyone else (including other women) what should and shouldn't be in a video game. You know, there's women who do like that stuff too...it's not just men. A woman can hold that controller and play any game she wants, she can also ignore any game they wish.

I don't think anyone is against some women wanting certain types of character in games they play...the problem is when they also want to decide what *I* can play as well.

Minorities should have a voice, but it should not overpower my own just because they are a minority.

Did you read my post? Sounds like you didn't. I said that no matter what, there are going to be objectified women in games. My point is that while this will always be the case, there should be other options too. Does your voice dictate that you want ALL woman in games to be objectified?

And let's be super real here. The whole idea that, woman should vote with their wallet is not even remotely fair. If all the women stopped buying game tomorrow, the gaming industry will still thrive and do well. Because they are a MINORITY. All the girl in the kickstarter wants to do is to bring attention that issue and bring about change that makes it just a bit more fair for women.

All i'm saying is if we have more types and more options(like I said, half naked girls will not be going anywhere), it will be healthy for the industry as a whole. I'm a guy myself but I don't understand why there is so much opposition to this idea. Sometimes we have to look outside our perspective a little bit and try to see it from another point of view.

[mibuwolf]

All i'm saying is if we have more types and more options(like I said, half naked girls will not be going anywhere), it will be healthy for the industry as a whole. I'm a guy myself but I don't understand why there is so much opposition to this idea. Sometimes we have to look outside our perspective a little bit and try to see it from another point of view.

The opposition is that although there are people out there whom are male or female that support this woman equality issue thing, are businesses going to change? No. Rated E & T games will be more or less fair, but like I said, once you enter rated-M it's all about fantasy and male dominated games. Very doubtful that'll change in the near future.

Business wins, but you'll have companies like Runic Games in the state they are in now that will always make games how they want to and not try to fit some sort of majority market.

[KnuckleHead]

Once again, someone saying "more options" meanwhile advocating on behalf of people trying to remove options for other people.

"he point is women should have as much of a voice as men does."

They do, they can vote with their wallet like everyone else. I say it is wrong for *some* women to decide for everyone else (including other women) what should and shouldn't be in a video game. You know, there's women who do like that stuff too...it's not just men. A woman can hold that controller and play any game she wants, she can also ignore any game they wish.

I don't think anyone is against some women wanting certain types of character in games they play...the problem is when they also want to decide what *I* can play as well.

Minorities should have a voice, but it should not overpower my own just because they are a minority.

Did you read my post? Sounds like you didn't. I said that no matter what, there are going to be objectified women in games. My point is that while this will always be the case, there should be other options too. Does your voice dictate that you want ALL woman in games to be objectified?

And let's be super real here. The whole idea that, woman should vote with their wallet is not even remotely fair. If all the women stopped buying game tomorrow, the gaming industry will still thrive and do well. Because they are a MINORITY. All the girl in the kickstarter wants to do is to bring attention that issue and bring about change that makes it just a bit more fair for women.

All i'm saying is if we have more types and more options(like I said, half naked girls will not be going anywhere), it will be healthy for the industry as a whole. I'm a guy myself but I don't understand why there is so much opposition to this idea. Sometimes we have to look outside our perspective a little bit and try to see it from another point of view.

I did, and it applies. Now let me ask you a question, did you read my post? I never insinuated I wanted every game to objectify women.

To your second point, here's exactly how it applies. Gaming is ALREADY fair...games are made based on demand. There's TONS of different types of games out there too, not just the ones that "objectify" women. The reality is that a lot of games do though, and that's because they serve a large demographic. The only way that is going to change is:

a) more women gamers into "core games" voting with their wallets, increasing their market share

or

b) what this campaign attempts to do, which is pretend all this is causing some social harm in an attempt to unfairly force developers to cater to them, even though they are a minority

She's not trying to get more games made (more options), she is clearly trying to change how they are made for everyone else.

Voting with your wallet *is* fair...it's the fairest system out there. Why should developers cater to a minority? Why should they have equal say in a totally optional market meant for fun and entertainment?

[mibuwolf]

I did, and it applies. Now let me ask you a question, did you read my post? I never insinuated I wanted every game to objectify women.

To your second point, here's exactly how it applies. Gaming is ALREADY fair...games are made based on demand. There's TONS of different types of games out there too, not just the ones that "objectify" women. The reality is that a lot of games do though, and that's because they serve a large demographic. The only way that is going to change is:

a) more women gamers into "core games" voting with their wallets, increasing their market share

or

b) what this campaign attempts to do, which is pretend all this is causing some social harm in an attempt to unfairly force developers to cater to them, even though they are a minority

She's not trying to get more games made (more options), she is clearly trying to change how they are made for everyone else.

Voting with your wallet *is* fair...it's the fairest system out there. Why should developers cater to a minority? Why should they have equal say in a totally optional market meant for fun and entertainment?

Sadly I agree. It's how it is; for now.

[coppermouth]

Then fine. Challenge it. Don't remove the features that males cater towards, but ADD features. There's a difference. I'm all for fighting for rights, but the day you remove "sexual themes" from video games, is the day pigs fly. "Most" award winning actresses aren't that type? HAHA. None of 'em look ugly and/or fat. As for the boobs, that's just fantasy added to a video game. We're starting to see booby-sliders and different builds of women, but they are ALL skinny.

Games will change possibly if the buyers change. Documentary or video series will do little or nothing to affect developers and their market.

Who said anything about featuring ugly/fat characters? No one said 'put more ugly, fat girls in games', ever. The point is not to OBJECTIFY women all the time.

Just because a woman is skinny/slim in a film doesn't mean she's objectified. The point isn't to have equal rights for all weight types in games and films(trust me, we are nowhere near making that an issue yet, although Gabourey Sibide might having something to say about that) the point is how half naked/scantily clad female figures are mostly the only option as female leading characters. So that is why there is concern over the issue.

[coppermouth]

I did, and it applies. Now let me ask you a question, did you read my post? I never insinuated I wanted every game to objectify women.

To your second point, here's exactly how it applies. Gaming is ALREADY fair...games are made based on demand. There's TONS of different types of games out there too, not just the ones that "objectify" women. The reality is that a lot of games do though, and that's because they serve a large demographic. The only way that is going to change is:

a) more women gamers into "core games" voting with their wallets, increasing their market share

or

b) what this campaign attempts to do, which is pretend all this is causing some social harm in an attempt to unfairly force developers to cater to them, even though they are a minority

She's not trying to get more games made (more options), she is clearly trying to change how they are made for everyone else.

Voting with your wallet *is* fair...it's the fairest system out there. Why should developers cater to a minority? Why should they have equal say in a totally optional market meant for fun and entertainment?

Sadly I agree. It's how it is; for now.

Of course that's how it is. Let me repeat, if all women stopped buying games, the gaming industry will still be thriving. No one is going out of business.

So let's do the math.

You're saying women should vote with their wallets. Hmn...Most Games objectify women. Women stop buying games that objectify women. Women stop playing games.

Yeah, that's fair.

[mibuwolf]

Who said anything about featuring ugly/fat characters? No one said 'put more ugly, fat girls in games', ever. The point is not to OBJECTIFY women all the time.

Just because a woman is skinny/slim in a film doesn't mean she's objectified. The point isn't to have equal rights for all weight types in games and films(trust me, we are nowhere near making that an issue yet, although Gabourey Sibide might having something to say about that) the point is how half naked/scantily clad female figures are mostly the only option as female leading characters. So that is why there is concern over the issue.

In that case, I disagree. Games haven't been about half naked girls, if anything it's been more or less the body types never changes.

http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/382-the-50-greatest-female-characters-in-the-history-of-video-games.html

http://www.afterellen.com/column/good-game-25-hottest-characters?page=0%2C0

I'm seeing overall less than a majority of female characters that are appropriately dressed. It's not that the gamer market doesn't have plenty of it already, but there are MANY MANY that are fine the way they are. If anything is common, it's that most of the female characters are beautiful, and very tiny.

You're saying women should vote with their wallets. Hmn...Most Games objectify women. Women stop buying games that objectify women. Women stop playing games. Yeah, that's fair.

Untrue. I will agree that there are quite a few, but that just isn't true.

[KnuckleHead]

I did, and it applies. Now let me ask you a question, did you read my post? I never insinuated I wanted every game to objectify women.

To your second point, here's exactly how it applies. Gaming is ALREADY fair...games are made based on demand. There's TONS of different types of games out there too, not just the ones that "objectify" women. The reality is that a lot of games do though, and that's because they serve a large demographic. The only way that is going to change is:

a) more women gamers into "core games" voting with their wallets, increasing their market share

or

b) what this campaign attempts to do, which is pretend all this is causing some social harm in an attempt to unfairly force developers to cater to them, even though they are a minority

She's not trying to get more games made (more options), she is clearly trying to change how they are made for everyone else.

Voting with your wallet *is* fair...it's the fairest system out there. Why should developers cater to a minority? Why should they have equal say in a totally optional market meant for fun and entertainment?

Sadly I agree. It's how it is; for now.

Of course that's how it is. Let me repeat, if all women stopped buying games, the gaming industry will still be thriving. No one is going out of business.

So let's do the math.

You're saying women should vote with their wallets. Hmn...Most Games objectify women. Women stop buying games that objectify women. Women stop playing games.

Yeah, that's fair.

Of course it's fair...why should a minority demographic control the product meant for the majority demographic? See, that's exactly what people are so against this for. You are not advocating more options (which voting with your wallet would TOTALLY be in play there)...you are advocating that since this demographic is a minority their voices should count for more and that everyone else should give into their wants. It shouldn't. They should focus their effort on creating content suitable for their own interests, and maybe out of that if they prove there really is a market for the female core gamer who hates sexualized women in games, then their voices get a whole lot louder.

That's what voting with your wallet is all about.

[coppermouth]

Who said anything about featuring ugly/fat characters? No one said 'put more ugly, fat girls in games', ever. The point is not to OBJECTIFY women all the time.

Just because a woman is skinny/slim in a film doesn't mean she's objectified. The point isn't to have equal rights for all weight types in games and films(trust me, we are nowhere near making that an issue yet, although Gabourey Sibide might having something to say about that) the point is how half naked/scantily clad female figures are mostly the only option as female leading characters. So that is why there is concern over the issue.

In that case, I disagree. Games haven't been about half naked girls, if anything it's been more or less the body types never changes.

http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/382-the-50-greatest-female-characters-in-the-history-of-video-games.html

http://www.afterellen.com/column/good-game-25-hottest-characters?page=0%2C0

I'm seeing overall less than a majority of female characters that are appropriately dressed. It's not that the gamer market doesn't have plenty of it already, but there are MANY MANY that are fine the way they are. If anything is common, it's that most of the female characters are beautiful, and very tiny.

You're saying women should vote with their wallets. Hmn...Most Games objectify women. Women stop buying games that objectify women. Women stop playing games. Yeah, that's fair.

Untrue. I will agree that there are quite a few, but that just isn't true.

On the first link, you posted it was a photo of Lara Croft with the tiniest pair of shorts and a top that only barely covered her boobs.

The second link was an article written by a WOMAN. So yes, she picked some characters that can appeal to both sexes(Although TIFA Lockheart might be the epitome of an objectfied woman)

I said in my earlier post that some things are getting better, making a reference to Beyond 2 souls and the new Lara Croft(who is not as ridiculous looking before), but you cannot honestly say that most of the women are not objectified in games.

[coppermouth]

Of course it's fair...why should a minority demographic control the product meant for the majority demographic? See, that's exactly what people are so against this for. You are not advocating more options (which voting with your wallet would TOTALLY be in play there)...you are advocating that since this demographic is a minority their voices should count for more and that everyone else should give into their wants. It shouldn't. They should focus their effort on creating content suitable for their own interests, and maybe out of that if they prove there really is a market for the female core gamer who hates sexualized women in games, then their voices get a whole lot louder.

That's what voting with your wallet is all about.

More options is exactly what the girl from kickstarter wants. More options for heroines= not have ALL of them to be objectified.

The thing is, if women aren't buying games, how will we have more female developers that try to speak for the minority in the industry. We won't.

And you can look at it from an economics perspective all you want, but there are still alot of women who are fed up with that type of imagery and just because they don't have the numbers in gaming as men do, doesn't mean that we don't have to consider their thoughts. There are going to be tons of scantily clad/sterotypes of women in games but we don't need that all the time.

I'm not a woman, but I do try to see it from their perspective sometimes.

[KnuckleHead]

Of course it's fair...why should a minority demographic control the product meant for the majority demographic? See, that's exactly what people are so against this for. You are not advocating more options (which voting with your wallet would TOTALLY be in play there)...you are advocating that since this demographic is a minority their voices should count for more and that everyone else should give into their wants. It shouldn't. They should focus their effort on creating content suitable for their own interests, and maybe out of that if they prove there really is a market for the female core gamer who hates sexualized women in games, then their voices get a whole lot louder.

That's what voting with your wallet is all about.

The thing is, if women aren't buying games, how will we have more female developers that try to speak for the minority in the industry. We won't.

As you already admitted, there are already games out there like this (non trope version of women)...they just have a smaller market share. The question is, if they aren't a large demographic, why should there be more female developers that try to speak to this minority (ie for violent/fantasy core games)?

Nobody is stopping anyone from making these games, and they do get made. This campaign isn't about options, it's about changing the way games are made.

[coppermouth]

You can define change any way you want. Because essentially, having more options= change.
I noted that you can look at it from a perspective of current economics, but i suppose i'm looking at it from a possibility of larger female growth in gaming. Which overall, will be better for the gaming industry.

Personally, I would like to see the female population in games to grow. NOTHING is going to stop guys from gaming. It's just not going to happen.

Look at the new Lara Croft (static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Daily/2010/12-Dec/09/Lara%20Croft%20detailed/LARA_Full--article_image.jpg) . She went from a Double D chest to a more realistic size. She is wearing pants rather than very small shorts. I don't think many gamers complained about that. This will obviously appeal to female audiences more and because its a leading female character, she will probably rein in female audiences as well as male.

This is an example of good female image progression in games. The developers also had women in mind when making this game, along with the normal male dominated demographic. More women will probably want to play this than the previous TRs.

This will obviously doesn't happen often, but it's a step in the right direction. If we have a few more of these type of changes, everybody wins. And if we bring a bit more attention to the issue, than it'll just get better.