What could you see yourself paying for?

[Kilgore]

I agree with Michael. You might be surprised about how many people would be willing to pay a few cents for cool effects and fun costumes. As long as these payments remain "micro-payments" I think that they'll have lots of takers.

They might also have stuff that costs a bit more on a one-time basis. We'll just have to see.

I think you need to take a honest look at the type of people that play ARPG's.

I can't imagine any self respecting min/maxer wanting to spend money to play dress up barbie.

[BilbyCoder]

I suspect you'd be surprised.

What Min/Maxer doesn't also want to stand out from the crowd with how awsome/badass they look. What's the point of having the stats if it doesn't LOOK like you have the stats. As soon as things go MMO looks become a lot more important.

BilbyCoder

[Kilgore]

I suspect you'd be surprised.

What Min/Maxer doesn't also want to stand out from the crowd with how awsome/badass they look. What's the point of having the stats if it doesn't LOOK like you have the stats. As soon as things go MMO looks become a lot more important.

BilbyCoder

How often do you expect people to buy new outfits and how much do they spend?

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of people that play a f2p game actually spend money on it. Awhile back on a different forum one of the developers from SOE's Free Realms game was saying that they were seeing money from about 5% of their customer base.

Color me skeptical that Runic is going to make a good living making outfits.

[BilbyCoder]

That depends on the person, the outfits and other factors we don't know yet like how much they will cost.

But even one or two purchases is some income, and if there are enough players then it adds up.

[bTomfoolery]

I honestly don't think that the MT store will be exclusively Vanity items. Most stores also sell things like massive packs of Health and Mana potions (I usually use these to round off any purchase that I have left over money from) and consumables that give temporary boosts. I am fine with this, it's not my thing, but I am not against it.

I also think I'd agree with letting players purchase custom items from the MT store. I wouldn't want these to give them a straight up advantage, but it would save them the time of farming for a sword with a specific boost on it, so basically, you'd pay a fixed price then create a weapon, choosing what buffs are on it, and it's skin (with some MT store unique skins) and color, and hell, might as well let the player name it. I personally am not a huge fan of spending hours trying to get a specific item to drop among random items, so If I got to the point in the game where I knew exactly what I wanted, I'd be happy to have the option to create the item I want myself.

[Kilgore]

I honestly don't think that the MT store will be exclusively Vanity items. Most stores also sell things like massive packs of Health and Mana potions (I usually use these to round off any purchase that I have left over money from) and consumables that give temporary boosts. I am fine with this, it's not my thing, but I am not against it.

I also think I'd agree with letting players purchase custom items from the MT store. I wouldn't want these to give them a straight up advantage, but it would save them the time of farming for a sword with a specific boost on it, so basically, you'd pay a fixed price then create a weapon, choosing what buffs are on it, and it's skin (with some MT store unique skins) and color, and hell, might as well let the player name it. I personally am not a huge fan of spending hours trying to get a specific item to drop among random items, so If I got to the point in the game where I knew exactly what I wanted, I'd be happy to have the option to create the item I want myself.

Nice example of thinking outside the "outfit" box.

I like the idea of allowing players to design, enhance and customize their own gear. I would prefer to see this built right into the core game play with the option to speed the process along via trading store currency for items with other players. But in order for store currency to have value to other players, there needs to be items of value in the store.

[Qix]

I was really intrigued by Mythos's proposed idea of buying a second currency with real money.

For ease, we will call this new currency 'ingots." Unlike normally gold, ingot's don't drop randomly. Ingot's only enter the economy through real money transactions. BUT the big catch, is that these ingots are transferable. There is nothing to stop you from buying 20 ingots and selling them for 2000 gold to any player. What this does, is make sure that regardless of who actually paid for the ingots, everyone still has access to all the options within the game. The ingots still get paid for, the dev bills are still being paid, All it changes is who causes the ingots to leave the economy. Because of this there is no reason everyone in the game, paying player or not will be excluded from any content in the game.

The obvious downfall to this is of course that you are essentially gold selling.

Please, no renting of stuff. Permanent purchase only.

Things I would be caught purchasing with ingots:
Bank space
Shared account wide bank space (so we don't have to put our alts in guild just for the space)
Guild options (guild bank, design of tabard, etc) Just not the actual guild charter itself.
I don't believe any kind of XP, weapons or armor should be sold. But I do love the idea of fluff items or visually (not statistically) different items being sold via ingots: Things like WoW's non combat pets, Ogre costume etc. Also fluff items that go into item slots NOT NEEDED by your actual armor. Things like wearing a robe OVER your armor, etc.
It might be a little harder to implement but uniques in the game Could items be traded in, with a couple ingots, for a special looking version of the unique.
Dungeons/maps. Maybe just buying the key to the front door with ingots would work well.
I normally played ranged characters. I would love to be able to buy a stack of unending arrows.

Or course others named some really good things like customization options ranging from more character creation options, to server change, to dye kits. Player housing would be very cool as well. Its one of the few things I could see myself paying rent on (or property taxes?), instead of a one time purchase.

Also,if an ingot type system does go through. The MMO purchase should come with a handful of ingots already. Enough to get people to understand what they are missing.

[Rithe]

I have been pondering this question a bit, partially because I'd love to make a web-based rpg someday (better do it someday before I get too old!) and that makes me wonder what people would pay for. The big complaint right now with games seems to be DLC. For instance, Dragon Age: Origins looks really neat, and they have already announced 3 DLC packages. That got me thinking about it more.

Hands down, Torchlight MMO should be a viable game in and of itself, without any extras. What if we payed for those extras. And not things that would be hugely overpowered. I like the idea of paying real money for an ingame item that will work as a currency. So, let's say I buy some of this currency. Now, I have an option to buy a new mount, or some armor. Another possibility. What if I can buy a map to a whole new area to explore? Would that be unfair?

It's a hard concept to wrap my head around. I don't think people who pay money to help support the game should get an unfair advantage (especially in a PvP setting, that doesn't make sense). But, they should be able to do things that the people who don't pay.

So, if I'm running around in a set of Dragonplate Armor of the Winter that I got from the Ice Caverns of Nox, don't complain because I payed for the map to get there. And anyway, it cool and neat, but not essential to the game.

Sorry if some of that seems rambling. I think I had too much coffee today, I feel jittery

[Srikandi]

I am probably coming off too harsh here, but I really want Runic to succeed. We need more high quality development teams making fun games. So if they need to sell some stuff that some people feel is "unbalanced" then so be it.

If enough people feel it's unbalanced, they will leave the game, and the game will fail.

The concern isn't that everybody feel warm and fuzzy all the time. The concern is exactly the one you raised... the success of the game. Nobody will play a game that they feel gives an unfair advantage to somebody else, and an MMO needs the non-paying community as well as the paying community. Did you see the statistics somebody else posted? In all of these games, regardless of what is for sale, 20% of the players will spend money, 80% won't. The game needs the 80% as well as the 20% to succeed, so you can't piss them off too much. And since that statistic suggests it doesn't matter WHAT you sell, there's no REASON to sell anything unbalancing.

I can't imagine any self respecting min/maxer wanting to spend money to play dress up barbie.

Have you seen any of the discussions on the Diablo 3 forums about armor and weapon graphics? By some of the (self-professed) most "serious" players? RPGs are where boys get to bring out their inner barbie addict/Sims player, although they tend to characterize the look they're going for as "badass" rather than "pretty"... or, if they're playing a female avvie so they can look at her butt, "hot". (Boys really really like player housing in RPGs too, I've noticed To show off all their bloody trophies of course! Not because they're interested in interior decorating!)

[bTomfoolery]

Not because they're interested in interior decorating!

Speak for yourself.

[Kilgore]

In all of these games, regardless of what is for sale, 20% of the players will spend money, 80% won't. The game needs the 80% as well as the 20% to succeed, so you can't piss them off too much.

Seems to me that if this 80/20 split is indeed true, then Runic will be depending on the 20% to spend 5 times as much in order to make up for the 80% not spending anything. I really doubt any significant number of people will spend $75 a month on a matching pant suit on a consistent basis. Runic will simply have to offer more items in the store to keep people purchasing on a recurring basis.

Keep in mind everyone has the opportunity to purchase items from the store, so it is not unbalanced or unfair. If Runic keeps prices reasonable then there is really no reason why people can't open up their wallets and pay for the service they are getting.

[Srikandi]

Seems to me that if this 80/20 split is indeed true, then Runic will be depending on the 20% to spend 5 times as much in order to make up for the 80% not spending anything.

Yup, that's the way these games work. This isn't hypothetical. There are dozens (maybe hundreds) of games operating on this basis already.

I really doubt any significant number of people will spend $75 a month on a matching pant suit on a consistent basis.

No they won't, but a) free to play games don't cost nearly as much to run as WoW, and b) they make much smaller profits. So we're dealing with much smaller amounts.

Keep in mind everyone has the opportunity to purchase items from the store, so it is not unbalanced or unfair. If Runic keeps prices reasonable then there is really no reason why people can't open up their wallets and pay for the service they are getting.

... the reason would be that they don't HAVE the discretionary funds :p If you're a cash-strapped kid, and the game you're in is one where your rich classmate has a gameplay advantage over you because he can afford a bigger sword, you will experience this as unfair, and you will leave the game for another free-to-play game that does not give your classmate an advantage like that. These games are competing with each other for a limited pool of players, and not the premium crowd either, who are already playing subscription games.

[Kilgore]

No they won't, but a) free to play games don't cost nearly as much to run as WoW, and b) they make much smaller profits. So we're dealing with much smaller amounts.

The customer base is also much smaller.

... the reason would be that they don't HAVE the discretionary funds :p If you're a cash-strapped kid, and the game you're in is one where your rich classmate has a gameplay advantage over you because he can afford a bigger sword, you will experience this as unfair, and you will leave the game for another free-to-play game that does not give your classmate an advantage like that. These games are competing with each other for a limited pool of players, and not the premium crowd either, who are already playing subscription games.

Why should a business care about someone that taxes their bandwidth, server capacity and customer service assets and will never provide any financial benefit? That may seem harsh, but it is reality. I can't afford a Porsche but that doesn't mean that Porsche should offer them for free.

Plus I really don't buy your argument, you are using an edge case to argue that Runic should never sell anything useful, most people can afford to spend $10 a month on their past-time; after all they do have a computer and an internet connection which costs considerable more.

Also I don't buy that people will leave for another f2p because of some items that provide the purchaser with an advantage because (1) that is what all f2p games offer and (2) there really aren't any other high quality ARPG mmos that Runic is competing with and (3) Runic is going to make a kick ass game that is going to be fun

I am not suggesting that Runic should be gouging people, but offering an item in the store that lets you add sockets to your gear is hardly unbalancing or unfair. I honestly don't expect Runic to offer grossly unbalancing items; however, they are going to have to offer something that people want (besides clothes).

As per my original post, I just think people need to set more realistic expectations on what items Runic will need to offer in order to be profitable.

[maanto]

I'd pay for a huge sack.

[Shardz]

I'd pay for a huge sack.

Of what, we dare not ask!

[ManifestoDeluxe]

I'm not really a fan of purchasable items that give players willing to pay a distinct advantage. I should be able to acquire loot based on my effort within the game, not on the size of my bank account. It's a big reason I've avoided a lot of microtransaction MMOs.

The ability to carry more would be nice.

I'd consider XP boosts.

I really like the idea of purchasable dye kits and other customization items though. We've all had the scenario where the best items in a game make characters look like colorblind carnies.

[Shardz]

Magic Online is like that as it favors those who are willing to spend $200-$480 on a single deck. They would then take their tournament killer deck into casual play and pounce all the poor/casual players like rag dolls in a trash compactor. I won't even get started with that game as it's the world's biggest online money pit game ever devised (as much as I love it in the same breath). It would really be interesting to get Anet's stats from the Guild Wars online store to see how much they rake in with their non-invasive offerings in the store. I like what they offer there and it doesn't affect game play one bit - it just adds some convenience factor to the hard core players, but no advantage regarding relative game balance.

[Srikandi]

I just think people need to set more realistic expectations on what items Runic will need to offer in order to be profitable.

I'm basing my arguments on what I've read about the way these systems REALLY work in other REAL games. So I believe I'm the one being realistic here The vast majority of players pay nothing, and the games need the non-payers too... so the payers will keep playing. That's what every single source I've seen says. If you think you're being realistic, please cite some real data.

Edit: Here's some discussion of the economics: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30257312/ns ... ence-games ; http://snafzg.mmofansites.com/posts/133 ... -10-1-rule ; http://www.massively.com/2009/06/13/fre ... -10-1-rul/

[Kilgore]

I'm basing my arguments on what I've read

I suggest you go check out some of the top f2p games. You will find that they all offer items in their cash shops that give their customers advantages. None of them only sell clothes.

http://us.runesofmagic.com/us/index.html

http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com

http://maplestory.nexon.net/WZ.ASPX?PART=/Main

This is reality. Deal with it.

[Srikandi]

I suggest you go check out some of the top f2p games. You will find that they all offer items in their cash shops that give their customers advantages. None of them only sell clothes.

This is reality. Deal with it.

*shrug* And another reality is that Runic have said over and over again they are not going to do that, and apparently they feel quite strongly about it. See for instance this interview from yesterday: http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Interv ... 20516.html .

Definitely we want to create a game that’s balanced so no one feels there are any unfair advantages – that would ruin the game for us. We want to use the microtransaction model in a social aspect - items will focus on character customization which is particularly meaningful in a MMO world. Loot drops will still be the main source for finding that uber-cool weapon you want.

They apparently feel it can be done, and my guess is they have looked into it :p