What could you see yourself paying for?

[TimNikias]

I think the idea about money-bought ingame-currency is great. I also don't think that spending money to get certain items with certain stats is that much of an unfair trade. I could either play endlessly, without paying, and hope to get the item with the stats I need, or take a shortcut and pay some money to get it. And since in the real world time=money some will be willing to pay and some won't.

I think, what's most important, is not that a paying customer has an advantage over non-paying ones. After all, if it'd be same for all, no-one would pay. Paying for an advantage is what F2P-Games boil down to.

The most important is that you don't restrict non-paying players in a fashion which makes them think they're being pushed to pay for something, because the game sucks truly sucks for them (e.g. they have to walk everywhere instead of using any transportation possibilities, like busses/gryphons/mounts of defined paths to connect hubs of interest). But getting time-limited better chances, or a (constant!) bigger variety of dungeons/areas (because once I bought a map to a place, it should stay accessible to me) is all fairplay in my humble opinion.

[Kavari]

I'd pay for a monthly fee. That's about it.

[Darker123]

I really wish they would allow a monthly payment plan of some sort... maybe something like, you gain access to the Micro-Transaction store just by using in-game gold, obviously the feature would have to be tuned for high-level gold finding abilities.

But I'd pay for - Skill and Attribute respecs,

- A permanent secondary skill spec.

- Items to make your character look cool.

- permanent stash size increase.

Things like that...

[Kilgore]

I think the idea about money-bought ingame-currency is great. I also don't think that spending money to get certain items with certain stats is that much of an unfair trade. I could either play endlessly, without paying, and hope to get the item with the stats I need, or take a shortcut and pay some money to get it. And since in the real world time=money some will be willing to pay and some won't.

I think, what's most important, is not that a paying customer has an advantage over non-paying ones. After all, if it'd be same for all, no-one would pay. Paying for an advantage is what F2P-Games boil down to.

The most important is that you don't restrict non-paying players in a fashion which makes them think they're being pushed to pay for something, because the game sucks truly sucks for them (e.g. they have to walk everywhere instead of using any transportation possibilities, like busses/gryphons/mounts of defined paths to connect hubs of interest). But getting time-limited better chances, or a (constant!) bigger variety of dungeons/areas (because once I bought a map to a place, it should stay accessible to me) is all fairplay in my humble opinion.

I suspect this will be the concept that Runic works towards.

[Kilgore]

See for instance this interview from yesterday: http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Interv ... 20516.html .

Part of the same article:

That’s another reason we’re glad to be partnered with Perfect World: they are experts in the free to play market and how to make it fun for everyone.

Go check out http://pwi.perfectworld.com/news/newsub ... -pack-7121 to see the types of items that PerfectWorld offers.

You need to brace yourself for a store that sells more then just wedding dresses.

[Srikandi]

On this particular question, Runic have said many times as well that Perfect World is giving them complete control over what items are going to be in the store, and they are NOT going to just do what Perfect World's other games have done.

You might turn out to be right, though... Runic's vision (which I share) may turn out to be overly idealistic, and they may be forced by economic pressures to compromise it. However, if it is correct, as the sources I have read and linked above have suggested, that the 89/10/1 ratio holds regardless of the types of items being sold, i.e. for games where stores sell only vanity items as well as games where stores sell items that give players added power, then the economic pressure to compromise their ideals doesn't exist. And in fact the economic benefit may lie with attracting more players to their game by not disadvantaging free players.

Pointing to examples of games where the other calculation has been made doesn't prove it's the most successful. And particularly, it doesn't prove it's the most successful with a Western audience, which is the aspect of this which has been troublesome for publishers of these games in the past. The conventional wisdom is that Western players avoid F2P/MT games because they view them as unfair.

It's not about what I want, btw. I am not an MMO player these days I'm just interested in this from a theorycraft point of view.

[Frigger]

I would pay for a gear set that levels with me. Think of the "heirloom" items in WoW. When I get to high levels I can replace the gear with better stuff found in the game like everyone else.

[Ken]

I would pay a no more than 15 dollar Monthly Fee for....

- Challenging Game play
- Smooth, clean graphics
- Easy player to player interactions along with grouping
- Wide Variety of Armor and Weapons
- Customization of character and its specializations
- In Game World Events
- Active Customer Support
- Weekly Maintenance updates
- Future Game Content (New Dungeons, Classes, Monsters, Items)


Just my basic expectations of an MMORPG.

[Kilgore]

It's not about what I want, btw. I am not an MMO player these days I'm just interested in this from a theorycraft point of view.

Fair enough. I thing we both want the same thing: Runic to be successful. I appreciate your view and insight on the matter.

I think you bring up a good point, why haven't f2p games been more successful in western markets? An argument could be made that this is due to them not being built for a western audience and not necessarily due to the f2p model. Most f2p games are often ports with poor internationalization of text, poor graphics and game play mechanics unfriendly to a western audience.

One problem with f2p games to date is that they literally price themselves way beyond what most people can reasonably be expected to spend on a game. In some games it can cost literally hundreds of dollars to be competitive, which is just unrealistic. I think a more mass market approach (cheap items) over a premium (expensive items) approach would be more acceptable to a western audience. Making items that people are willing to pay for and keeping prices reasonable should help even out the 89/10/1 ratio.

I think it is no secret that game developers and publishers are looking for different revenue models (subscription, fixed price, downloadable content) to help fund game development. It will be interesting to see the effect on game play these different models have on future games. When designing a game will designers determine the appropriate stash size for game play reasons, then cut it half for business reasons and sell the second half as "extra stash"?

Personally I find it more palatable to pay for something I wouldn't normally get in a game, then to pay for something I think should of been then in the first place. YMMV.

[SoMoN]

I would be paying for subscription and not enjoy a micropayment game :/

"berk this guy looks better than me coz he paid for that helmet! "

[bTomfoolery]

I would be paying for subscription and not enjoy a micropayment game :/

"berk this guy looks better than me coz he paid for that helmet! "

Instead, lets make everyone look the same but still pay anyways.

[hawkn]

I would be paying for subscription and not enjoy a micropayment game :/

"berk this guy looks better than me coz he paid for that helmet! "

Instead, lets make everyone look the same but still pay anyways.

Lol. i'll willingly pay for a cooler helm.

[Needlehawk]

I would be paying for subscription and not enjoy a micropayment game :/

"berk this guy looks better than me coz he paid for that helmet! "

Instead, lets make everyone look the same but still pay anyways.

Or make everyone pay and only those with 10 hours a day to play look cool.

[Dereth]

I would pay a no more than 15 dollar Monthly Fee for....

- Challenging Game play
- Smooth, clean graphics
- Easy player to player interactions along with grouping
- Wide Variety of Armor and Weapons
- Customization of character and its specializations
- In Game World Events
- Active Customer Support
- Weekly Maintenance updates
- Future Game Content (New Dungeons, Classes, Monsters, Items)


Just my basic expectations of an MMORPG.

Same here. I am ok with a monthly fee, plus a reasonable amount for an expansion every year, or maybe every 6-8 months.

Perhaps I am too old-fashioned but I want to play the game to get my Staff of Uberness, not to pay for it .

[Needlehawk]

I've been playing a f2p (with MT's) Facebook game this week , Restaurant City. It helped to see how a F2P can play out. Basically, in this game, everything that is really necessary is free, and the vanity stuff (basically what you serve in the restaurant) can be obtained very slowly for free, or quickly by paying.

So for example, in my restaurant in the game, I have a Japanese themed restaurant (you can choose what you want). All the furnishings, etc. are only obtainable through in-game gold. In addition, you are given some "starter" recipes (basically pizza and salad). You learn new recipes by getting the correct ingredients. I can get them slowly (by getting a few random ingredients per day and hoping that I get the right ones) or quickly (by spending real money for the ingredients). Now, for my restaurant, it's rather odd to see the waiters serving pizza. However, it doesn't matter for anything but the aesthetics. I can choose to put up with it and change it slowly, or pay a few bucks to actually be serving sushi in my restaurant.

Of course, this is completely different than the mechanics of TL. However, it has let me play a game that really is free for the entire content, with the option to pay for convenience and aesthetics. If TL strikes the same balance, I think it will do fine.

[Jerich]

I've been playing a f2p (with MT's) Facebook game this week , Restaurant City. It helped to see how a F2P can play out. Basically, in this game, everything that is really necessary is free, and the vanity stuff (basically what you serve in the restaurant) can be obtained very slowly for free, or quickly by paying.

So for example, in my restaurant in the game, I have a Japanese themed restaurant (you can choose what you want). All the furnishings, etc. are only obtainable through in-game gold. In addition, you are given some "starter" recipes (basically pizza and salad). You learn new recipes by getting the correct ingredients. I can get them slowly (by getting a few random ingredients per day and hoping that I get the right ones) or quickly (by spending real money for the ingredients). Now, for my restaurant, it's rather odd to see the waiters serving pizza. However, it doesn't matter for anything but the aesthetics. I can choose to put up with it and change it slowly, or pay a few bucks to actually be serving sushi in my restaurant.

Of course, this is completely different than the mechanics of TL. However, it has let me play a game that really is free for the entire content, with the option to pay for convenience and aesthetics. If TL strikes the same balance, I think it will do fine.

It would be interesting to here a more detailed account of your experience later Needlehawk.=P I can't muster the energy to play these types of games myself. I have already ordered Dragon Age Origins however.=P I will probably wait till torchlight is on the runic site before buying it.

- Jerich

[Wodenborn]

This time of year? Halloween costumes. No doubt.

The only free game I've actually spent money on is Battlefield Heroes and it was just for cosmetic enhancements. Spending real money on weapons you could buy with in-game currency or for XP or money boosts just feels like cheating. In general, paid weapons and armor should be flashier and shinier than free ones, but utterly equal in stats and abilities. Listing a prices in both in game currency (gold or reputation) and real dollars helps remind players that they only have to spend money if they're feeling lazy.

I don't begrudge other players doing it, it's just a point of pride that I can play the game without having to spend money, and a properly balanced game isn't going to force me to.

New dungeons, on the other hand, I would definitely pay for, particularly if they were released after launch and had big promo vids on youtube detailing what you're getting. Of course, I might have more fun making my own dungeons in Torchlight 1. Valve has stated that they're going to try to find a way to get some user-created Left 4 Dead PC mods on Xbox, and send the profits back to the original creators. Blizzard officially announced that paid user mods will be supported by the Battle.net store. I hope Runic Games will be taking notes from the user mods that come out for Torchlight, their MMO has the potential to benefit from user-created content to create a game that's truly as big as its fanbase.

[Shmarvin]

What kind of features could you see yourself paying for with real money? [/list]

I can tell you what microtransactions I have made with the games I have played:

Battlefield Heroes: Since the Beta I spent $25 on vanity items and some widgets (bandages).
Warrior Epic: Nothing. I didn't like the game. I tried to like it, it's an ARPG, my favorite kind of game, but I never got to the point where I enjoyed the game.
DDO: Nothing here either. I like the game, but I haven't gotten far enough yet that I need to purchase extra content. And I don't like the idea of buying weapons and armor. I like to build my chars, not buy them.

[WolfStar]

I would rather pay say, fifty dollars, to buy the game and not have to subscribe. If the game is P2P I will not play it as I just will not spend that kind of money.

I would say make payment for the game itself and playing it free and/or make payments to level faster, get items (But don't make items that you can only get from payments). Basically paying = getting to high levels/gear easier. Plenty of people would readily do that and still leaves the game open to be played by those who do not wish to have to pay a monthly fee and does not ultimately create a gap between those who pay and those who do not.

[maanto]

For some of the people that mentioned favoring a macro-transaction-like package:

How about a "Digital Collector's Edition"?

For $20, throw in a few extra features that are planned for the TL digital store, a few exclusive items that will never be put in the store, and any other items of that nature. Maybe early access to the server could also be offered.

It doesn't all have to be digital either. Possibly include an action figure, plushie, or something physical along those lines too.

It could always be more physical too, kind of like a press kit.

Yes, I did just quote myself. :p

Also, I just realized there's 2 digital-download games that have done this recently: Heroes of Newerth and League of Legends. (I don't know how successful it's been for them, however).