I give up

[RagingGamer]

I have a lvl 20 Destroyer in VHHC. Thats the highest level I have achieved on VHHC. I can not get to 20 with a Vanq or Alch. I can pump their defense ALL DAY LONG. Def only seems to be a factor if you play a Destroyer, the combination of low defense and low health totally cripple the ability to level up a Vanq or Alch. The Destroyer is PAINFULLY slow to level due to having to invest so much in Defense just to make him survive.

I don't see how ANYONE can get through the quest in VHHC with a vanq or alch that isn't using mods or cheats in one way or another. I have tried every angle with those character types. The fact you can be one shot from off the screen has proven to me anyone managing to finish the quest line, let alone get to level 100, in VHHC is clearing SUPER lucky or just a cheat. Don't bother responding with "I did it fool", thats just letting me know who cheated and likes to pretend they did not.

[dreamrider]

Since I am on Vanquisher clone Darrrigan #229, and I haven't finished I feel that you might tolerate a response from me, since I share your pain.

I have managed to get one of the Darrigan's, #189 I believe, to clvl 31. We were on the third lizard caverns level when she go ganked through my own carelessness.

I find that as I have gained experience with my obsession to only play through this thing with a Vanq on VHHC, agility (run and gun), and a willingness to run to safety have become my watchwords.

I also find that it really helps to try to keep your clvl 5+ levels above the level of the main quest dungeon that you are clearing.

I alternate between map/Hatch/phase dungeons and the main quest. For all of the option dungeons, I work the character up in the main story line to where she is just 1-2 kills away from a promotion, teleport out to town, go to an option dungeon, and take the promotion with the first fight inside the option dungeon. That way I am guaranteed to nearly always be at least one clvl above the critters, whose lvl is set when you enter the dungeon, apparently.

Also, I stock up and stick with the lowest level range maps (1-10) until my character is at least 2-3 clvl above the highest level of the map range of the dungeon I am about to enter. As an example, I find that my clvl 12 or 13 chars are generally fighting lvl 9 or 10 critters in map tours, which is not a walk-over, but is managable unless I make a mistake (I've made at least 220 of them so far <grin> - the other ganks were simply unfair!)

Buff your pet! Generally set him aggressive so he stays out in front of you. Every time the game tells you he is hurt, feed him a fish (I favor Muckfish, Gloopers, T-sharks, and all Elementals via hotkey-mapped fish stash, to instantly restore him and keep him in the fight. I favor Flaming Sword and Frost as pets spells, but then I have not played at the very highest levels yet - I understand from rading forums that group soummons, Silence, and Heal All are favored for pets by many high-level players.

One subtly very nice thing about Frost as a Pet spell. You were complaining about getting shot from off screen. Well, a pet with frost acts as kind of an early warning system. He detects enemies beyond the edge of the screen and, if he has it ready, fires off his frost in that direction. Both slows them down and warns you where they are.

Be prepared to leave a dungeon - even if you paid for the map - if the opposition seems to be to high level for you current stats. This can particularly hapen in map dungeons between clvls 6 and 15. Don't hesitate about it. Live to fight again.

Hopw this helps. Good hunting.
dreamrider

[RagingGamer]

I also find that it really helps to try to keep your clvl 5+ levels above the level of the main quest dungeon that you are clearing.

I totally concur with this, and in my haste to post my displeasure, I had forgotten to mention it occured in the Shadow Vault. Most deaths are due to me REALLY not shunning Phase Portals and trying to level up in SV. This last run the Vanq was lvl 11 in the SV. Usually I go with the +5 levels mantra, but i wanted to eek out as much as I could then delve into the quest line. I guesstimate somewhere in the 20s the quest line catches up to your clvl and if you then move to the SV you are doomed, as your gear is underlevel. I am trying to NOT use any mods, and you really need a map mod like Never Map to control the map's clvl after clvl 20 maps.

Anyways, undaunted, feareless, stupid and ignorant I try again with a vanq....

One subtly very nice thing about Frost as a Pet spell. You were complaining about getting shot from off screen. Well, a pet with frost acts as kind of an early warning system. He detects enemies beyond the edge of the screen and, if he has it ready, fires off his frost in that direction. Both slows them down and warns you where they are

Yes...but Frost hadn't dropped or been available in the store this time around, and she was only 11. I usally used Frost and Fireball, Fireball is just stupid ridiculous if your clvl > mobs. I have used web on some characters that failed to find Frost early, it's so-so. I used to use Frost and Heal All, since I tend to play a minion meat wall summoning Vanq. This time I went with Fireball for the LOL one shot pet clears mobs action.

The overall problem with Pets and Minions is once they fixate on a target, anything that passes them is all yours. They don't attack the nearest enemy to you or any other threat. Thiis leaves you open to a lot of potential off-screen aggro that can one shot you (Goblin Hounds, the Impaler Cats and Dark Servants being the most common). If you allow yourself the use of mods that don't heavily change game mechanics in your favor, I recommend Better Pets and Minions for the modified AI. Unfortunately for me I am going Vanilla Commando, no mods.

[Dracon85]

I am with you here... I have been trying to avoid the destroyer on hard core and doing a challenge similar to the ironman challenge with the main dungeon. The rules were simple:
The only mods you can use are cosmetic (things like gender mods)
Set difficulty to very hard hardcore
You can use the graveyard money to get anything you want in the beginning.
You cannot use heirloom items or other banked shared items from previous attempts (you can rezz with mods on hardcore is why I have this rule lol).
Once you enter the main dungeon you cannot leave, you must take all phase portals, and you must keep going down. No going back to level up.
All skills and spells are fair game, alchemist and vanquishers really can't go straight melee in my opinion without mods.
No fishing
Last but not least, no merchants, the exception being you can buy identify scrolls or sell to dungeon merchants.


My best attempts with these rules is floor 30 of the main dungeon with both a vanquisher and an alchemist, where I promptly get 1 shot by a dark zealot a few steps in usually. There is no defense, there is no hiding from it, that red lightning is death if she is on the same screen as you lol. The dmg of that one spell clocks in at around 1860 fairly often against my 1200-1400 hp alchemist. This latest attempt was an alchemist with 1200 hp, 318-636 dmg absorbed by armor, and 329 lightning resist; he actually survived the first few dark zealots, and then got one shot for 1734 WITH all that defense lol.

If anyone has gotten to the bottom of the main dungeon without heavy twinks and levels I would love to hear about it... I am searching these forums not to see if my quest really is hopeless without mods or something lol.

[Aremi]

Don't give up. The game is about gear and if you don't have right gear and stats you can't do it on Hardcore. HC not about luck, it's about total control. If you are not 99% time on full hp, you are doing it wrong. I just finished today VHHC Vanquisher and my health never dropped under 70%. No mods, no cheats. I wanted to do all Steam achievements so i started Vanquisher in Easy HC, rerolled to Normal, then Hard and finaly VHHC. I haven't died once and it was walk in the park with all 4 characters. The key is to gain good gear and improve it all the time.

My stats when killed VHHC Ordrak were: Level 37, 3200 hp, 100 dex, 180 def, 36% block, 21% crit, 800 resistances (1275 electric res), 511 dps 1h pistol.

Get 100% missile reflect ASAP, it's easy. Then build def and resistances, focus on electric res - this is only way to avoid one shooting by Dark Zealots and Crawlers. I think 1000 res must be enough. You should have high resist gear in every slot. Hp was not that important, i was truly invincible already. Use shield, invest in block. Heal your pet and equip it with 2 Heal All spells. I equiped 2 different resist spells on character, also portal spell and identify spell.

If you decide to not to use shared HC stash and use just what you find with that one, be sure not to enter level 30 if you don't have very high el resist. Buy flow ember gems and skulls from all vendors at least. Also note that most if not all the Ironmans did it in different game version. Dark Zelaots were always pain, but Ver 1.15 instead of solving that imbalance, buffed them even much more. You can't avoid them, so only resist can save you there.

[Dracon85]

I was about to say... you were missing the point. We were talking about an ironman type challenge... in that case your gear is going to be limited. Of course with enough time and gear you can easily beat a hardcore, that is true of any game designed to be beatable (which is pretty much every game).

What I am asking is would it be possible to complete an ironman type challenge (not as a destroyer) with the game as it is right now? Personally I would say no, only because of dark zealots atm. The gear you need is out of your reach without exiting the dungeon or going back to gain levels.

[dreamrider]

What is the point of any self-imposed limits where you eliminate a number of the designed in player tools, such as fishing and trading and transmuting and gambling? I can absolutely buy no mods, and can see no passdown as a valid challenge for a single character run. But most of those other limits constitute cutting out parts of the game that the designer INTENDED be available and used to finish the game. Sure it is Ok if you have fun playing that way, but it is no wonder that you cannot get to the end of the campaign without them.

dreamrider

[Dracon85]

Oh I already got to the end of the campaign on other modes using the conventional methods. And sure the people who designed the game intended those things to be used. However, in the interest of a challenge I play this way, I realize no one is forcing me to play this way and the game probably wasn't intended to be played this way. The point is that this is a personal goal for me as a gamer, even if only to tell myself I did it; such a task may be silly and a waste of time, but it certainly makes things interesting.

Now please, don't criticize the methods or rules one such as I chooses to play by, this is not the issue here. What I am asking is how feasible would it be to do such a thing with a ruleset like these in the current patch? I can only theorize that it is possible but really difficult. I have currently transferred some items over to get 500-1040 dmg reduction and 2300 hp, and this makes the one shot issue rare for an alchemist. The main question is could one be so fortunate to find this kind of gear in time normally?

[Aremi]

@Dracon 85: I understand you are trying Ironman, but the OP is not. It's obvious from his post that he has problems with beating standard VHHC game. He is entering SV, buying items etc...

As for Ironman, it's great challenge. Probably one of the best ways to play this game. Limiting the resources, ignoring vendors, going untwinked makes it very fun. I used to try that few times with Destroyer when the game was fresh.

In current game version the hardest mob is not Ordrak, but Dark Zealot. The whole VHHC turned into surviving Dark Zealots. There is probably one hundred of them in levels 30-34. And the fun ends there. The beam is instant very long range spell and one must survive huge crits from champions. He has three spells, first summon skeletons, then this electric beam and last poison bolts. It casts them in that order. So when you see skeletons you know Zealot is there and what's comming next. There is probably no way how to avoid that in many cases. It will strike many times in these levels.

This bugged mob makes defense and electric resistance the most important stats in VHHC. One need really a lot of those to survive those beams. It's probably doable with 600 res as minimum. I don't think one can gather such gear in single Ironman run up to level 30.

There is somewhere Dark Zealot Balance Mod. It's like bug fix as it returns the mob's damage values to the original. You can maybe consider trying that if you wanna continue, otherwise it's almost hopeless.

[Dracon85]

I have heard of that mod, and it is definitely a good idea for those who want the game to be somewhat more balanced. As you said for any hardcore game the object now is to get absurd defenses to counter the dark zealots. You need a ton of armor and/or lightning resist, though 600 is a bit excessive, I would say more around 400 as long as you have good armor and the armor talent. Charging mobs can be mean as well.

Yes I realize he wasn't doing ironman type stuff, I admit I haven't done the shadow vault much myself but I hear dark zealots get even more ridiculous there.

[RagingGamer]

There is somewhere Dark Zealot Balance Mod. It's like bug fix as it returns the mob's damage values to the original. You can maybe consider trying that if you wanna continue, otherwise it's almost hopeless.

I have read the dark zealots are bugged, and for me its those and other 1hit CRITICAL wonders that appear from off the screen while you are fighting a mass of other nasties that tends to end my VHHC runs.

I wouldn't fault anyone from using a mod that "balanced" dark zealots, but for me it would cheapen the experience, much like avoiding Phase Portals. Some phase portal map layouts are so cheap and ridiculously impossible to survive, I do avoid Phase Portals when I play VHHC with anything other than destroyer. My one experience with 2 Dark Zealots behind over 20 mobs that were on my character's head when the map loaded proved to me there is such a thing as "completely unfair" in Torchlight. The map in question was....more than impossible.

I later entered the same map, with a more manageable spawn, on my high level Hard mode SC Vanq and took screenies just so I didn't have to explain the map situation ever again if it came up.

Anyways I agree with dreamrider and play from the same point, being Vanilla Commando I won't impose even more restrictions in VHHC, it's just plain hard enough as it is.

[RagingGamer]

Finally, after much consternation, thought, forboding, etc., I now have a clvl 30 Vanquisher in VHHC. I could post another topic, but it might as well just go here.

WARNING: What I am about to discuss may make VHHC easier than you want it to be, so I would highly advise you to not read further if you like endless pain and suffering. Also if you are one of those restrictionists who sets even more stringent guidelines on how you play your HC characters, you may not like how I level mine to keep ahead of the main quest line in levels in order to have some chance to survive Zealots and crap. I use no mods, don't back up characters, etc. I play pure vanilla commando and completely in line with the game. No mods of any kind, even official, have been used with my Vanq.

This is also a WIP (Work in Progress). Until I defeat Ordrak, or die....I may change my opinion or view on what I submit here.

Spoiler: show

Stats:

I decided from the start I would put some stat points in Strength, in order to open up more armor choices early and hopefully find better defense pieces with high Reflect Range Damage. This worked out very well, my Vanq wears 2 pieces for 100%, even though she has left over pieces that total over 100% currently worn.

I decided to return to having a high Defense, although I often go back to pure dex since it seems Defense and HP bonuses just do not matter on a Vanq in VHHC. They end up dying on me even when I try pumping Def and HP.

Her base stats at clvl 30 are STR: 20 DEX: 68 MAG: 7 DEF: 80

At this point I am only distributing points to Defense as she levels. Her skill allocations so far are:

Marksman - Ranged Weapon Expertise 7, Critical Strikes 10, Adventurer 4, Explosive Shot 9
Rogue - Armor Expertise 5, Defensive Spell Mastery 10
Arbiter - Flechette Trap 1

Spells: 2 levels of Zombies, Haste, Elemental Protection
Pet Spells: Frost, Fireball (Probably gonna go with Summon Zombie 6 when I get it)

How I played:

I levelled to 3 in SV on the first floor, then I went and ran the quest until I got Brink. I went back to SV and levelled up to 13, but it got hairy at 12 and I probably should have left at 12. I levelled to 17 doing the quest line and then began doing the store bought maps. I recommend using the most expensive of the 1-10 maps since, in my experience, I always got the catacombs with mobs set to mlvl 9. I recommend levelling up to 25-27 off these, then switching to the cheaper 1-10 maps which most often end up generating the sunken ruins map with mobs mlvl 17. I ran these until the character was 30. Be sure to keep buying maps and keeping them in stock as eventually the shop merchant will stop selling you the 1-10 maps.

I plan to run the 10-20 lvl maps until 35 or so, then run the 12-25 maps til 40. Also between 30 and 35 I plan to do the quest line until it becomes difficult OR I hit the black palace maps. At that time I switch to the store maps til 39 or 40.

Why run the store maps? Well, in my experience I had a really hard time with Ordrak in Hard Difficulty at clvl 35 with an Alch. When I get to Ordrak I don't want to fail....due to the way in which you level slower in Very Hard you end up underlevelling the quest line, and since VH already has mobs scaled to be harder than the other difficulties, this just pinches you until you implode. Levelling up outside the quest line is the best way to stay somewhat in line with the quest difficulty.

Gear:

Reflect Range Damage > Defense <> HP > Fast Cast > Knockback

I use Pistol+Shield with whatever the best mods I can find, of course. My pistol has crappy mods



The toughest time is clvl 7-15. Once you get 15, it's a lot easier as your stats begin to allow you to get better gear and you get exploding shot and can start working on your basic skill build. For me I started by dumping the first 2 points in Ranged Weapon Mastery, then working through the others. I prioritize getting Adventurer to 3, Defensive Spell Master to 3 (by the time I can use Haste 3) then 5 then max, Critical Strikes to 5 then max by 30, Armor Expertise to 3 then 5 by around 27, eventually maxed prior to 40, I tossed 1 in to Explosive Shot and Fletchette Trap at clvl 15 and I didnt touch Explosive Shot again until around clvl 25.

Currently I am working up Explosive Shot and Ranged Weapon Mastery until maxed, then adding 1 point to Adventurer and finishing off Armor Expertise. Then I will work on Block and Parry until maxed, and if I still play her beyond 40 I will max Fletchette and then Adventurer.

[dreamrider]

Can't argue with anything except one item, though it is not the way I hope to go.

Recall that I HAVE gotten one VHHC Vanq to level 31 (32?), some time ago, and the kill on her was just stupid - I was distracted by household events at a bad moment. She could have continued to handle the environments (Primal Caverns) or awhile yet.

The one item I would most definitely change is your treatment of the Adventurer Skill, and that only a little. I think that in VHHC it is important to max that Adventurer Skill as quickly as you can, to help cope with that slower leveling in VHHC.

By all means blend in plenty of map quests, to pump the leveling. I tackle them somewhat differently.

I main quest til my experience is just short of promotion, teleport out, grab a map, then promote after the first few hits in the side dungeon. That guarantees that I always quickly get just a bit of edge on the conditions/level basis at which the map dungeon/Hatchmysterious scroll dungeon/phase portal rooms were generated.

When I come out of the side quest, if my experience just conveniently happens to be at 95% or better I do another side dungeon. Otherwise, I do my housekeeping, and return to the main quest for just a bit to get up close to promoting again. Rinse and repeat.

If I know that there are Shrines to be had on lower levels of the main dungeon, when I have an equipped weapon that I have purchased enchantment (or merely erendipitously dipped) to get to the 10% Risk (Town) level, I will do my experience building run into the main mine by re-navigating from the top (or from the nearest Waygate above the first known Shrine), rather than returning through the Town Teleport portal. this allows me to use the known Shrine to try to further work my weapon up to the 10% Risk (Shrine) level. I don't attempt to enchant above a 10% Risk level unless I have an equally good weapon available for ready replacement.

I may stop doing Phase Portals on the deeper levels of the main line, if appear to be getting as suddenly deadly as forum folks are saying. For now, however, since all the forms of side dungeons as generated off your current character level apparently, I am trying to do every Vasman map, Hatch quest, and phase portal as they come along, as vareity from the low-level map runs.

I'll have to try out your tip about the 328GP 1-10 maps, however. I've generally been avoiding them , because I am a cheapskate, up til now.

dreamrider

[RagingGamer]

I'll have to try out your tip about the 328GP 1-10 maps, however. I've generally been avoiding them , because I am a cheapskate, up til now.

dreamrider

For 328 gold I make just over 4k per run, and they are very fast runs. I gain more potions than I use and the only cost is buying identification Scrolls, which once you sell the junk you Identify is a wash or a wee increase in profit.

I mainly use Adventurer for the improved potion effectiveness. Since I run the easier maps repeatedly to farm gold as well as fame and experience I don't have much issue with xp gain. Then again you play differently and most of your xp gain is from the quest line which tends to come slower.

I avoid Phase Portals like the plague. I had a very bad experience once and it convinced me phase portals are just to randomly balanced to afford you an opportunity to not be forced to die. I have a screenshot of the map that spawned so bad there was 100% chance of fail, luckily I was testing the VH waters with a VHSC, after 30 insta deaths on spawn I was sold.

[dreamrider]

I think you misunderstand my promotion pattern a little. Most of my experience gain and promotions come in the map/quest dungeons, against the full level (well, jus under full level) opponents.

Before I go into a quest/map dungeon, I DO pump experience to 95%+ in the main tunnels, to make sure I get a quick promotion in the side dungeon. However I don't STOP with that. I play the side dungeon out completely, usually getting 1-2 additional promotions in the process. If I emerge from the far end of the side dungeon with 95%+ experience already accrued, I go right back into another quest/map dungeon.

The only time I spend in the main dungeon is to pump my experience only to the next near-promotion level after I have emerged from a side delve, or to take advantage of known Shrines for the benefit of a partially enchanted weapon.


There is another thing that neither of us has mentioned for the general audience, about using side dungeons as your main route to experience. Map dungeons are of moderate length, with 1 much smaller dungeon of the next level underneath the entry level and a portal back to town at the end. Hatch quests and even Vasman maps are similarly limited in scope, with town safety at the end. I think that even though the critters in them are set to be an adequate challenge for your character level individually, the relative shortness of the delve usually lends itself to survivability. For one thing, you don't run out of potions or Identifies. For another, you don't face the very worst super-bosses. In addition, I think the boss drops are just as good as what you would run across in the main halls.

dreamrider

[RagingGamer]

Bringing her up to date, now level 40. Her weapon is now officially CRAP...I don't want to try Black Palace with this weapon, let alone Ordrak, but I am also tired of running side dungeons for money and drops. Her Rifle is much better BUT...She all but died to a one shot lightning strike from a lvl 24 zealot when she was 38 (it completely drained her health but by shear luck I managed to run away and pot up). I was using the rifle since the map was a 12-25 and she was 38, but that scared the crap out of me so I am back to using a shield with more Electric Resistance. Her pistol was a 514 dps, nothing special, crap mods that failed to enchant at 7% and dropped to like 222 dps so now she uses this crap:



Her stats I placed 2 more in Dex just to have an even 70 and the rest has gone to Defense. I don't know if Fletchette Trap is affected by Dex, but I doubt it so the only reason for her to have a high dex is for gear requirements, since Explosive Shot is based on weapon DPS.



Currently working up Block and Parry, then dropping 1 pt in Hamstring, then either finishing off Adventurer or Fletchette Trap, although Devouring is tempting for the slow effect.

[dreamrider]

Hmm...I seem to have done some sort of time warp thing with my Hardcore Vanquisher (series), Lady Darrigan.

I note that on Nov 1, when I first replied to RagingGamers frustration with VHHC Vanq play, the then Darrigan clone was #229, according to my post.
The current avatar is Darrigan #338...only 17 days later.

Now while there were a couple of days in there when I went through 4-5-6 clones in 24 hours, there were also several days when I didn't play, and several stretches when I managed to keep one character alive for 2-3 days of play (including the the last 4 days with just the one funeral this morning.) I'm sure I did not manage to play through over a hundred restarts in 17 days; I had to actually work some of those days (though it didn't keep me from playing at least a little bit.)

However, I'm also quite sure I restarted the character much more than just 9 times, so whatever space-time event occurred it wasn't as simple as mis-typing a 3 in the hundreds place when I was naming the next replacement.

As I mull it, I think that in the wee morning hours of some 14-hour play session I must have been thinking, "Will I still be doing this when I reach Darrigan #300?"

Then, when that lady adventurer died from some form of sleep-deprivation or caffine-poisoning half-an-hour later, the clone counting register of my personal central processor flipped over quite naturally to "Darrigan #301". It DOES feel like I have suffered through the wounding and bleeding out of about 30 to 40 avatars in the last 17 days, so that should be about right.

So I am going on public record (for those who have followed this noble Quest of mine to ONLY play the game through in VHHC) that I am resetting the count on Lady Darrigans expended to "Lady Darrigan #268".

After all, the way I have been going, I am sure to eventually get to the real Darrigan #338 before I reach Lvl 100 (quite possibly before I reach Ordrak! <grin>)

dreamrider

BTW - the latest Lady Darrigan passed away just this morning, at clvl 25. After suviving A Hatch side quest through mislaid bit of Estheria which seemed to be peopled by approximately 30% Dark Deciples & 20% Dark Zealots (level 23), she was killed just inside the very vestibule of the next Hatch offering, by an eager crowd of (Level 24) Ratlins & Foremen (!), on angel dust & steroids! Oh gods, the humiliation! /dr