Ruminations

[Perictione]

All interested:

I've been wandering aimlessly through the threads in this forum this morning, reading the posts in a lazy effort to gather some insight into the MMO experience. I figured having access to the community's collective experience and knowledge base, I'd swiftly find answers (some better than others) to all the questions I have. After a while, though, it occurred to me that this may not be the case. For example, I'm wondering if it's possible to fully participate in an MMO without ever actually having to kill anything?

Out of interest, I tried this once in 'Diablo,' playing a low armor class pacifist wizard who happily tagged along behind everyone else, casting heal others (and the occasional hurried resurrection) with merry abandon. Surprisingly, the vast majority of players were quite accomodating with this arrangement, doing their very best to protect me from any opponent who wandered too close to my character. Best off all, only a few players thought me some sort of idiot deserving open ridicule (kids! sheesh!). In 'Diablo 2,' however, I was unable to attempt anything like this as the underlying structure of game encouraged continual slaughter, and heaps o' it!

But time has passed, and I have to admit my ability to rapidly and repeatedly point and click is starting to wane, whereas my ability to cheerfully socialize and add good-natured irrelevancies isn't. And this brings me back to my initial question: if it's possible to fully participate in an MMO without ever actually having to kill anything?

I think it is, but it would require a bit of a re-think as to what the philosophical structure of a MMO (or MMORPG) is. If any given MMO is simply a "more players per square inch" version of an extant multiplayer game, then I can only wonder what exactly the lasting appeal of that game would be. How much killing (whether player versus player or player versus opponent) or questing or accumulation of loot is enough? For me, it doesn't take too long before it all becomes pretty much the same. True, it's nice to have a bigger, swifter sword or gun and sufficient armor that prevents a hasty death, but is this what makes a game entirely worthwhile?

(Once again, I'll point out I'm not a really a gamer, just someone who likes specific videogames - Torchlight being one of them - and it's for this reason I've lost complete interest in playing 'Diablo 3'. For me, it's become apparent that the folks at Blizzard have gone in an entirely different direction with the product than I would have expected. Though the graphics are mighty pretty, the gameplay looks downright silly, and the attitude of the developers... well, frankly, they come off appearing both foolish and, at times, condescending (but, admittingly, it's been my experience that most business people are pretty good at appearing both foolish and condescending). Yes, folks, I know I've only been looking at beta-version footage and reading beta-experience commentary, and betas often represent the full product about as much as a photograph of mountain represents the experience of actually ascending the mountain... all the same, it's been enough to lose my attention. But that's just me.)

If it were possible, I'd like to adopt a role that's traditionally performed by a nonplayer character - that of quest-giver, or cleric, or enchanter, or blacksmith... or even the operator of a funky tea house and crystal shop. You name it, I could probably find a lasting interest in performing that role, especially as I could set my own hours and not risk the inconvenience of getting killed! Wouldn't this make for an interesting in-game dynamic? Imagine it - players would quickly learn that magic swords are not just dropped randomly by monsters, but are carefully fabricated by themselves (or by other players who've specialized) using specific materials assembled over time. I know something like this already exists in provisional form (I've been reading that Skyrim thread in the off-topic forum, you know?) and believe there's the kernal of a fantastic gameplay feature... it just needs to be developed so as to provide a logical service rather than exist as yet another character skill.

Well, I could continue for many more hours... but my morning is rapidly getting away from me (and I very much want to get out on to the ski trails! New snow!), but I thought it would be nice to get this topic underway, and so here is my contribution.


- P.

[adoomgod]

Hmmm. I agree with you completely. It's rather strange at first glance but not so in practice. I find in most MMO's that i am put off by how many people are just obsessed with the numbers on their gear and damage and so focused in the meta-game. I crave discussion and interaction in MMO's that just doesn't seem to be encouraged. Whenever I've made guilds it was to have strange events that don't fall into the norm of the game. Instead of just raiding I'd do things like go to a main bridge that many people crossed with 40 people, strip our characters naked and start dancing and sitting on each other and being generally provocative while at the same time discussing life and philosophies.

It would be nice if there was a way to reward this sort of behavior. Hmm, a game where players can take any role, not just the role of hero.

[DarkTails]

Heh, I think it'd be neat if people could specialize in talents like the ones you learn in Warcraft, like Engineering, Blacksmithing, Mining, Fishing, etc.

If you don't want to be a warrior killing things all day, you could be study to be a master engineer and build contraptions that help others do the dirty deeds (or just make the game more fun, like Exploding Sheep pets xD). Your goal in the game wouldn't be to kill stuff, it would simply be to build the coolest devices possible. To build the devices you need materials, but since you're not built for slaughter, you'd have to hire other players to gather things for you. Maybe even find a party willing to escort you to a dangerous place where rare materials can be found.

You could still help them kill things though, your skill tree would allow you to build things on the spot. Turrets, robot minions, exploding arrows, supersonic devices that keep away monsters with sensitive ears, you can be a walking supply depot, haha. And of course you could create items that no one else can and can't be found in the wild or used through other skills. So if people want a Giant Ember Mech Buddy, they have to come to you and make a deal. Maybe you rip them off, maybe they trade you a powerful weapon you can use with one of your other characters, maybe you're an honest seller and stealing business from other Engineers so they hire other players to go kill you and steal your supplies!

I find in most MMO's that i am put off by how many people are just obsessed with the numbers on their gear and damage and so focused in the meta-game.

What? Sheesus, all you ever did while playing warcraft is brag about how much damage you can do and what gear you have and what skills you have and blah blah blah.

[Naihonn]

Two words. Ultima Online. Great game. And you can play it totally as crafter and help others and make some money and have your house, flowers,... It is really old game, but still great, especially on freeshards, where community is also much better and warm-hearted.

[Zidders]

Ok...pretty much the best crafting systems i've seen in an MMO was Star Wars Galaxies and EVE online. EVE is probably the best example of the kind of thing you're talking about. Here's a great into to it http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/1118

Granted, it's not easy to get into, and it's hard to get some supplies because it means going into pvp aread and taking a huge risk. Also, the gameplay is caustic, much of the motivation behind the game is to have players screwing each other over. Still, that doesn't mean something more benign can't be designed. Everything in the game is player craftable, tho. Or at least a large portion of it. Same with Star Wars Galaxies. These are two examples of games that made crafting a part of the game that was just as viable as the combat, instead of it being something one does on the side.

I'd like to see a craftsman class. Diablo III actually has a good idea with the crafting npc's. Let the people who like to hack and slash go out and do all the work, your character is getting xp as they learn to make better gear. You could still have crafting open to everyone, but the crafting characters would get special bonuses and abilities the other classes dont have. Instead of +10 armor, it would be +10, with the chance to fire off some sort of aoe. A craftsman character would be cool, especially if (like in Lord of the Rings online) you could either be good at a lot of trades, or be excellent in one particular trade.

I also want to see healers. I love playing healer/cleric.

[Seer]

Indeed, being a Craftsman sounds cool. I quite like collecting materials and crafting stuff, then travelling around as an artisan and merchant.


Though I think that in an ARPG-MMO, this is pretty hard to do on a large scale. Perhaps the best way to approach this is make sure those "crafting" skills play an important role and make sure they matter, inside the grander scheme of things.


And yeah, EVE is pretty great when it comes to that aspect. I've had an account since 2009.

[Zidders]

EDIT: Perictione, you might want to try EVE

Nooooo! No no no, it was an EXAMPLE. AN EXAMPLE. Peri, stay here with us. It's warm, it's safe. Sure, it's cold in space, but you can't ski! There are no space slopes. It will swallow your soul!
D:

[Seer]

Indeed forget it. There's some nutcases out there I don't dare describe.

Mad dictators, crazy fleet commanders, knowitall intergalactic trolls, professional scammers, fools and all sorts of buffons (however it is spelled).

[Webbstre]

I'm wondering if it's possible to fully participate in an MMO without ever actually having to kill anything?

Depends on the MMO. Runic doesn't like having healers. Too many MMOs use healers as a crutch to keep the game going. For a fast paced game like Torchlight, you're better off diving into the action - the best defense is a good offense approach.

But if you mean never ever kill anything... not many games would give you the experience to level up without killing something, unless it's party experience.

[Perictione]

First, a sincere thank you to everyone who's posted in this thread! I honestly appreciate your feedback, folks, whether you agree with my comments or not: it's all good, you know? And the more that's contributed, the better the game will undoubtedly be.

Second, I'm wondering about the possibilities of purchasing virtual, nontransferable titles (i.e., real estate) using real world currency. While I'm dead set against Real Money Action Houses (RMAHs) as potential exploitation makes the annoying issues relating to mudflation and goldmining laughable, I'm all in favor of players having the ability to purchase or rent a piece of the game world, whether in the form of a merchant's stall, a guildhall or (*grinning inanely*) an entire kingdom. If you think NPC enchanter and gambling fees are great goldsinks (and hedges against inflation), wait until you see what building a road, a castle or installing a sewer system can accomplish!

Of course, I recognize the importance of fast-paced action in an MMO (or MMORPG) that bills itself as a game with fast-paced action.... but, again, I wonder how a Torchlight-themed MMO could distinguish itself from a multiplayer version on this basis, let alone every other MMO that's ever been produced. Raids? Mass player versus player anarchy? Monsters with even more hitpoints? Sure, right, okay, but I remain more than a little skeptical as I've never killed another player's character (and have absolutely no interest in doing so) and once you've killed Baal in Nightmare-mode single-handedly in hardcore (something, again, I've not done and have no interest in doing), defeating Baal in Inferno-mode form seems faintly pointless, if not ridiculously vain.

The answer (at least it's an answer for me), of course, is basic content. Content beyond enhanced graphics, level-increasing expansion packs and Panda bears that know karate. Content that supports action of the usual hack-and-slash variety alongside unusual (but just as challenging) action that arises from intrigue and social (or, more accurately, not so social) interaction. Speaking only for myself for a moment, while it's great fun dropping hordes of bad guys (and the glee of breakin' barrels apart is it's own special joy, I know), it's funner managing a corporation. A lot more funner. Most folks will likely not have the opportunity to find this out, but here's a chance for them to do so... even if it's only in a virtual setting.

Similarly, I can understand a developer's hesitation in providing ready access to a PC healer (and some players believe the rapid consumption of healing potions to be a bit cheesy too), but I have absolutely no difficulty with either practice: I support real-world helicopter medivacs and am awaiting the introduction of tailored nanocytes that are designed to scourge cancer and promote rapid healing of bone and tissue injuries. Even in a fantasy setting, it only makes sense folks would be doing all that they could to avoid the multiple inconveniences that arise from illness, injury and black magic (mind you, I live in a relatively secular country where socialized medical care exists... in America, the country that proudly boasts the best health care possible - if you can afford it, that is - it's entirely a different philosophy and fundamentalism cheerfully thrives).

If good folks like Travis like knowing new players are dropping all over the place (and I, too, say Darwin rules! ), then let's level the playing field a bit and make the most obvious leap in game-play mechanics: It's your money or your life, babe. That is, when a character perishes, the penalty is appropriate: You can lose your life but keep all your property; you can keep all your property but lose your life. Of course, I'd introduce this option after Easy-mode...

Anyhow... once again, morning is passing, and the ski trails beckon! As always, I'm looking forward to your comments and contributions.

- P.

[Zidders]

I take exception to the line of thinking that sees healers as being a 'crutch'. Sure, if the game is poorly balanced, especially the classes, you may end up having to lean too heavily on the cleric, but the minstrel in LoTR online is a great example of how to make a great healer class that can actually solo really well, too.
http://www.lotro.com/news/997-minstrel-101
Minstrels use the power of music to cast both healing buffs and auras that aid both their party and themselves in battle, as well as buffs and auras that boost combat abilities. Since every class is balanced in a way that allows both group AND solo questing, having a minstrel along isn't a necessity it DOES however greatly increase your ability to take on much more foes, much larger foes or both.

I think that it's entirely possible to have a class in game that allows for non-violent gameplay as well as having it be a support class. I think the reason these aren't really worked on is because people are so stuck on the traditional idea of class roles that has been around for at LEAST 40 years or so. I mean, imagine that. We've come SO far in the past 40 years. Technology, industry, socially, etc, yet we're still stuck on 'Cleric, fighter, mage, thief, ranged and loud mouthed, good for nothing, holier than thou, paladin'..er, well, you get the picture.

Ok...I REALLY need to learn how to mod. I need to mod a healer/tradesman class.

[DarkTails]

P, if you're in New Zealand, make sure to catch me a Kea! The crankiest one you can get. I'll sculpt new fingers for you should any be bitten off in the process. :]

[Webbstre]

If a main part of your MMO experience is "looking for healer" or waiting to see "looking for healer" then it shows that MMO is too strongly tied to having a support mechanic which you cannot progress without. I'd say it's a crutch AND the result of being unable to progress from decade old gameplay mechanics. Plus it's a sign that the gameplay for that game is too slow.

[Zidders]

If a main part of your MMO experience is "looking for healer" or waiting to see "looking for healer" then it shows that MMO is too strongly tied to having a support mechanic which you cannot progress without. I'd say it's a crutch AND the result of being unable to progress from decade old gameplay mechanics. Plus it's a sign that the gameplay for that game is too slow.

I dunno Webb...I gotta admit, I kinda feel like you didn't read my post. There's a difference between a game having a class that can play support and help the group take on bigger and more things at the same time if they want to, and a game that requires you to have a cleric or else forget doing anything. Trust me, cleric was my favorite class in Everquest and I loved being relied upon so much but the fact is, sometimes I want to hack and slash if I choose to, as well.

I dunno..I kinda get the feeling that you're saying you absolutely cannot have a healer class in a game and have that class be viable or fun. I disagree. I think you can, it's just that everyone thinks being healer is the babysitter role. Take a look at the medic role in Tf2. I think that's the greatest example of a support role with teeth. If your team is good you don't need one but it sure doesn't hurt. A well played medic is formidable as both a support class AND an offensive class. I happen to be a damn good medic in tf2, with my entire in game play time, some 1500 hours or so, having been spent playing medic.

It can be done, it just takes some effort. So does designing any class. I don't see why the idea should be tossed out just because it' might be hard to do.

[Webbstre]

However, I have two important points to present:

1- I stopped playing regular MMOs that use this mechanic a long time ago, so if it's changed recently I honestly have no idea.
2- It's just my opinion. I prefer the fast paced action of the ARPG genre, or if it's a regular RPG then something single player. I like that games like Diablo and Torchlight don't need a healer class.

I will say it again though, if a game requires you to have a healer in your group to be able to play, then I see that as a crutch in an outdated gameplay system.

[adoomgod]

I find in most MMO's that i am put off by how many people are just obsessed with the numbers on their gear and damage and so focused in the meta-game.

What? Sheesus, all you ever did while playing warcraft is brag about how much damage you can do and what gear you have and what skills you have and blah blah blah.

That's just cuz mages are amazing. But when I'm plowing through the longer instances with people I like to talk to people about philosophy and why they like the game and really just anything. The craze of power and numbers really only lasts the first few days for me, but eventually it IS just an amount of time you sink in to make your numbers bigger. I want a bigger sense of ... personality in a mmo.

[wolfmane]

Jerich had this idea about how player characters could, in their off time, become the fundamental transaction and interaction elements that games have traditionally relied on NPCs for.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=482&hilit=Moonlighting

I don't know how viable it would be given the current state of gamers and their reception of the idea. I think pushing that further in to online activity and not just limited to off-line would be interesting. There was another game that was geared towards some of the idea you're suggesting as well. It's on the tip of my brain but I can't quite remember the name. Give me a few and it'll pop up and I can post a link.

[Acalanatha]

TL;DR: Love healers, can progress through game no kill mobs. MMORPG = many people = many assholes. TL-MMO w/o overpowering cash shop = yay + htf did they do that? Me wish them success.

Perictione (because I know you'll actually read the whole thing):
In any traditional MMORPG, there are different roles. I mostly play a tank. I love healers (who do their job efficiently) with all my heart, and anyone who's ever been in my party will tell you that I will willingly suicide if it meant the healer's free to escape. For one thing, most tanks cannot resurrect others. If I die, my healer can do that to me, but not the other way around. In this one old MMORPG that I played, healers got screwed with because they're always so busy healing, they don't get attacking experience bonus (for getting the last hit on mobs) and defending experience bonus (for tanking the mob when it dies). The developers did NOT listen to those of us who asked for healing experience bonus, saying it would make healers level too fast. Anyway, in that game, I always share my loot with my healers (yeah, they're so busy, they don't have time to pick up loot, either.). Oh yeah, I also have a regular partner in MMORPGs that I play, normally. We'd share materials, money and level up different life skills (fishing/smithing/tailoring/etc). That way, we half the time needed to do the more mundane matters. No matter how many jerks there are, there are bound to be a few nice nuts in the game. So know that there are people who love, and do not abuse, healers/buffers. Except those who don't do their job properly. I'm not elitist, but if you fail nineteen out of twenty runs (with me), you're not coming with me.

That being said, if you're going to try being social in any MMO, I can almost guarantee you that you'll find way more juvenile morons than sensible people. Most would seem all right at first, but once any trigger sets them off, just look at them rampage through the fields, stomping on herds of babies cursing your ancestors. If you feel like managing something, most MMOs these days have guild functions. Some have multiple tier of group functions (guilds combine to form factions, which combine to form nations blah blah) Start and manage a guild. It'll be hectic and non-rewarding a lot of the time, but who knows?

With regards to your thoughts about the game distinguishing itself from others, most things have been done. But let's see. You could have living skill levels that aren't tied to your character levels, but most F2P games tie those together because they want... you guessed it: MONEY. The higher level you are, the more hurt you have to take, so you'll buy cash shop potions, experience scrolls, upgrade stones etc. Perfect World's games, for example, are mostly great. Except they are like every other game: They want to feed on human weaknesses, and suck all your money from your bank account. They'll wave the F2P flag in your face and say,"BUT YOU CAN BUY THEM IN-GAME USING GOLD!" But once inflation -giant pain in the butt that it is- kicks in, you will need a LOT of time to farm the gold to pay for the cash items. So the only way through which Runic can truly distinguish TL-MMO from the others, as a F2P title, is to make good their promises of not having game-breaking things in the cash shop. And still survive very well. Which will make all the big names in the F2P MMORPG world drop their jaws. Maybe they can do it at the beginning, but how long before finances force them to make heartbreaking decisions? I look forward to that. Runic doing well while pointing a metaphorical finger at the greedy sons of mothers from the other companies. Not them making heartbreaking decisions.

-A

P.S. Many of the times healers are blamed for wipes, it's because the complainers did not use pots to back up serious situations in which healers are too busy to heal everyone. Those fools should die. Repeatedly. In the game.

P.P.S. Yes, many of the partners with whom I have gone from lvl0 noobly-geared sprites to max lvl epic-geared sprites have never touched a mob in their in-game lives. I do NOT let my partners die if I can help it.

[Zidders]

<3

You, my friend, are one of those rare and wonderfull tanks who truly understands the nature of the tank/healer relationship. I've been very fortunate to have met a few of you in my time, back when I was hopping across the face of Norrath as my froglok cleric. May Mithaniel Marrs' blessings be upon thee.

And totally hear you, as far as the heartbreaking decision thing. I worry about this too.

[Acrylik]

oh god stay away from eve..

4 years of that bulls!@#.

or go ahead and set up your little habitat... and then find out that those people your supplying weapons too don't really give a f!@# about who's supplying them. god help you if you try to supply the people who create the weapons.. everyone hates you then..

no... if you're going to play eve go at it with the intention to cut some throats.

my sources? i was one of the top pvper's in eve online. i've had alliances disband to my thefts, ran with some of the best pvp alliances and accumulated way more hatred from that community then i thought possible when i started.. hundreds upon thousands of players ships, implants, investments, cold cash, skills and hell... even accounts. and as if that wasn't enough, i went ahead and dominated as much as i could in other areas with my 6 in game paid for accounts.. no.. it's not what you're looking for.

besides, ccp keeps ruining everything