The Respec Compromise *UPDATE!2* Not solved at all

[adoomgod]

Ok, both sides need to face reality, with or without respec the game's still going to be fun.

Maybe it's time the great Doom says what he has against respec.
Respec cheapens the feel of any character build. When you build a character up from level 1, with all your points locked in place, it is really rewarding to feel the build come to fruition. However, and this is a reminder to all pro-respeccers here, TL2 is not D2. In D2 there were a lot less viable builds. In Torchlight 2 all stats and skills are being designed to be useful for all classes, more or less. Meaning a much larger variety of builds, particularly on stat point allocation (this is exciting as Diablo 2's stats sucked, gear requirement then all vitality, some dex for shield users).

But still, if you are level 100 and then you just swap your skills out to a cool build you read online, BOOM, end result of that build. No leveling it from 1. You think you're enjoying a new build but you really miss out on the experience of working into it.

But you argue I can still do so, just ignore respec option!?
Lol, it's hard to ignore. Having in vanilla will be like me climbing a mountain while you take the elevator to the peak. Like me killing a pack of lions with my bare hands to just watch you down another pack with a machine gun. I rather you keep the convenient easy way in mod form.

Get it? Asking me to play my way while u respec in vanilla is not so easy. I sort of feel like what's the point of climbing Mt. Everest when there is an elevator that most people take. Please don't flame me, this is just how I feel. It is the old school mentality. I won't apologize for it and I'm not enforcing it and that is why I offer compromise.

[D1Tremere]

Some good discussion on this, but its still bad discussion.

Respes is a choice, don't like it don't use it. If you don't want it in you are just limiting other peoples choices and that is wrong.

The replay value in these games (if they are worth there salt) has nothing to do with replaying the SAME class many times, it comes from playing the DIFFERENT classes and from trying to gear them each to perfection. It has never been fun to replay a class just to fix bad decisions, nor is a game real life in which mistakes should have consequences. A game is an escape from a world where fear of mistakes often prevents people from going for the heroic or exciting decisions, to punish people in what they do for fun and to relax is just cruel.

There can and should be no compromise on this issue, no control is needed beyond the self control of those who truly dislike the option to simply not use it. Not including it (or requiring mods which some may not be up to understanding) is truly a fascist conceit, removing others freedoms then placing the burden on them to adjust. You have the right to make the game harder for your self, but not for others.

I apologize but I can never seem to stress enough just how morally wrong this type of thinking is, as if a person on a diet should have the right to force the world to stop making any food not on there diet plan instead of taking it upon them selves to choose how to eat.

I hope there is a robust respec option of not just skills but also stats, so I can spend countless hours playing with each class and loot instead of loosing interest after learning the 30 hours I invested in my character has left me with a play style I don't enjoy and I have to start all over again. The difference between my style and the no respec stance is mine doesn't force anything on any one.

[D1Tremere]

Ok, both sides need to face reality, with or without respec the game's still going to be fun.

Maybe it's time the great Doom says what he has against respec.
Respec cheapens the feel of any character build. When you build a character up from level 1, with all your points locked in place, it is really rewarding to feel the build come to fruition. However, and this is a reminder to all pro-respeccers here, TL2 is not D2. In D2 there were a lot less viable builds. In Torchlight 2 all stats and skills are being designed to be useful for all classes, more or less. Meaning a much larger variety of builds, particularly on stat point allocation (this is exciting as Diablo 2's stats sucked, gear requirement then all vitality, some dex for shield users).

But still, if you are level 100 and then you just swap your skills out to a cool build you read online, BOOM, end result of that build. No leveling it from 1. You think you're enjoying a new build but you really miss out on the experience of working into it.

But you argue I can still do so, just ignore respec option!?
Lol, it's hard to ignore. Having in vanilla will be like me climbing a mountain while you take the elevator to the peak. Like me killing a pack of lions with my bare hands to just watch you down another pack with a machine gun. I rather you keep the convenient easy way in mod form.

Get it? Asking me to play my way while u respec in vanilla is not so easy. I sort of feel like what's the point of climbing Mt. Everest when there is an elevator that most people take. Please don't flame me, this is just how I feel. It is the old school mentality. I won't apologize for it and I'm not enforcing it and that is why I offer compromise.

Thats the way it should be, challenging your self is a choice, what defines us is how and when we push our selves. You also have to remember that not everyone is up to the same level of challenge, all the more reason for personal responsibility as opposed to dictatorial edict.
If anything building up the character without respecing (when its easily available) should make it more rewarding if thats what you are in to.
I also don't agree that you get the max level without paying the price, you set threw 100 levels you deserve to be able to play it your way not re roll.
Even if they succeed in making all skills and builds equally valid (which no one has yet), why should I HAVE to re level all 100 levels to play it differently?

No person should have authority to dictate the value of another s personal achievements or decisions.

[Mivo]

But still, if you are level 100 and then you just swap your skills out to a cool build you read online, BOOM, end result of that build. No leveling it from 1. You think you're enjoying a new build but you really miss out on the experience of working into it.

Or you might miss out on the tedium and frustration of having to do again what you already did, and would otherwise just have quit playing the game in anger.

Like I said, I understand both sides of the argument (and I have yet to use the respec option in D2, which I have been playing some again lately), but since the question needs to be decided one way or another (by Runic), I would prefer players having the choice to decide how they want to play the game. Opponents of the option would still have the choice to play legitimately the way they want by not using the respec option (you say it would be tempting, but that is something you'd need to sort out with yourself). If, on the other hand, there won't be a respec option at all, people who'd like to respect would have no alternative to using mods or editing their character.

So having the respec option would allow both groups to play the game the way they want, not having that option would allow only one group to play how they want. Why go for a win-lose scenario over the win-win alternative?

A possible solution that crossed my mind is to have a re-usable respec option in all modes except hardcore and "very hard" of softcore. People who go for "very hard" or hardcore opt for playing the game in a more challenging way, so not being able to respec would be part of what makes these modes more difficult. Everyone else, that is: softcore from easy to hard, would have access to the option in the game.

[Perictione]

So having the respec option would allow both groups to play the game the way they want, not having that option would allow only one group to play how they want. Why go for a win-lose scenario over the win-win alternative?

A very sensible statement that justifies the rationale of compromise.


- P.

[hawkn]

So having the respec option would allow both groups to play the game the way they want, not having that option would allow only one group to play how they want. Why go for a win-lose scenario over the win-win alternative?

A very sensible statement that justifies the rationale of compromise.


- P.

But it will affect the people who don't want respecs in the game! (Because apparently, they think we all should have to level 12 characters)

[xani]

But it will affect the people who don't want respecs in the game! (Because apparently, they think we all should have to level 12 characters)

But they can feel better about themselves for playing like "pro" and being superior to casual scrubs spamming respec every weekend See ? everyone wins

[Ulvaak]

Wow, what have I started?

This is not one of those instances where a simple toggle or check box can fix the situation is it?

I’ve seen a couple of these lately...

[cheeseheads]

So having the respec option would allow both groups to play the game the way they want, not having that option would allow only one group to play how they want. Why go for a win-lose scenario over the win-win alternative?

A very sensible statement that justifies the rationale of compromise.


- P.

But it will affect the people who don't want respecs in the game! (Because apparently, they think we all should have to level 12 characters)

wow hate to say it but for once i agree with this guy

[Zidders]

A game is an escape from a world where fear of mistakes often prevents people from going for the heroic or exciting decisions, to punish people in what they do for fun and to relax is just cruel.

There can and should be no compromise on this issue, no control is needed beyond the self control of those who truly dislike the option to simply not use it. Not including it (or requiring mods which some may not be up to understanding) is truly a fascist conceit, removing others freedoms then placing the burden on them to adjust. You have the right to make the game harder for your self, but not for others.

I apologize but I can never seem to stress enough just how morally wrong this type of thinking is, as if a person on a diet should have the right to force the world to stop making any food not on there diet plan instead of taking it upon them selves to choose how to eat.

.

CRuel? Fascist? Morally wrong?

This is Torchlight, not treblinka. Do you have any idea what real fascism is? Part of my mate Kats family is Jewish. I've talked with family members who watched as people they love were herded off to concentration camps. Many of them died in gas chambers. This is a video game. Everyone in this thread needs some perspective. Wether it's in or out, your lives will go on. It's not worth bickering about.

This has nothing to do with morality. If Runic leaves it out, they're not being cruel. Messing up and having to make a new character isn't some form of torture.. It's not a hardship. We can MOD THE GAME, for crying out loud.

No wonder the mods haven't been poking their noses in here. I have half a mind to quit the damn forums until the damn game comes out. In, or out, it's not the end of the world. Wanting a respec in the game does not make you a crappy player. Not wanting respec in the game is perfectly fine, too.PEople step over the line when they assume that because THEY don't like the idea, nobody should have it. While this isn't CRUELTY, it's merely an OPINION, one they have a right to have, in my OPINION it's a silly idea. Sort of like people who think because gay people want to marry, it means that it somehow affects the sanctity of their marriage. It makes no sense.

Doom, I love you but what you're talking about is a)what does or doesn't make a character special depends on your own unique perspective. Different people have different perspectives. For instance, I seem to remember a certain demon bot who likes to speed through games vs my much slower pace. To my perspective, i'm the one climbing the mountain while you're on board the great glass elevator. Do I begrudge you your Doomey ways? No, all that matters to me is that you're enjoying playing the game. So, why is it ok for you to race through in one game and then turn around and imply that, because someone else decides to take that same elevator, it somehow affects how you perceive your own character? Sorry man but thats a bit of a double standard. As far as ignoring things...self control dude.

It's not my fault if others can't look at things from a different perspective. Personally, what I find special about a character has nothing to do with stats or anything like that, it has to do with how much fun I had playing the game.

That's the one problem with this thread, this forum and this world. Too few people trying to see things from other peoples perspectives.

[cheeseheads]

A game is an escape from a world where fear of mistakes often prevents people from going for the heroic or exciting decisions, to punish people in what they do for fun and to relax is just cruel.

There can and should be no compromise on this issue, no control is needed beyond the self control of those who truly dislike the option to simply not use it. Not including it (or requiring mods which some may not be up to understanding) is truly a fascist conceit, removing others freedoms then placing the burden on them to adjust. You have the right to make the game harder for your self, but not for others.

I apologize but I can never seem to stress enough just how morally wrong this type of thinking is, as if a person on a diet should have the right to force the world to stop making any food not on there diet plan instead of taking it upon them selves to choose how to eat.

.

CRuel? Fascist? Morally wrong?

This is Torchlight, not treblinka. Do you have any idea what real fascism is? Part of my mate Kats family is Jewish. I've talked with family members who watched as people they love were herded off to concentration camps. Many of them died in gas chambers. This is a video game. Everyone in this thread needs some perspective. Wether it's in or out, your lives will go on. It's not worth bickering about.

This has nothing to do with morality. If Runic leaves it out, they're not being cruel. Messing up and having to make a new character isn't some form of torture.. It's not a hardship. We can MOD THE GAME, for crying out loud.

No wonder the mods haven't been poking their noses in here. I have half a mind to quit the damn forums until the damn game comes out. In, or out, it's not the end of the world. Wanting a respec in the game does not make you a crappy player. Not wanting respec in the game is perfectly fine, too.PEople step over the line when they assume that because THEY don't like the idea, nobody should have it. While this isn't CRUELTY, it's merely an OPINION, one they have a right to have, in my OPINION it's a silly idea. Sort of like people who think because gay people want to marry, it means that it somehow affects the sanctity of their marriage. It makes no sense.

Doom, I love you but what you're talking about is a)what does or doesn't make a character special depends on your own unique perspective. Different people have different perspectives. For instance, I seem to remember a certain demon bot who likes to speed through games vs my much slower pace. To my perspective, i'm the one climbing the mountain while you're on board the great glass elevator. Do I begrudge you your Doomey ways? No, all that matters to me is that you're enjoying playing the game. So, why is it ok for you to race through in one game and then turn around and imply that, because someone else decides to take that same elevator, it somehow affects how you perceive your own character? Sorry man but thats a bit of a double standard. As far as ignoring things...self control dude.

It's not my fault if others can't look at things from a different perspective. Personally, what I find special about a character has nothing to do with stats or anything like that, it has to do with how much fun I had playing the game.

That's the one problem with this thread, this forum and this world. Too few people trying to see things from other peoples perspectives.

I see it from your persepective Zidders and im sure alot of people do. But we all want different things i guess so neither side will budge. Like i said before good luck Runic on this decision cause either way somebody is gonna be mad

[hawkn]

If they add it, the people who don't like it will have to ignore it. And if they don't add it, I'll just have to go to extra trouble to edit my character file.

[SixshotOverdrive]

This thead:

Spoiler: show

So having the respec option would allow both groups to play the game the way they want, not having that option would allow only one group to play how they want. Why go for a win-lose scenario over the win-win alternative?

A very sensible statement that justifies the rationale of compromise.


- P.

I think the point of this thread was to come up with a win-win alternative, but rather than discuss how respecing should work and maybe coming up with a solution, people decided to compete over who could yell the loudest.
*shrug* what can you do?

[hawkn]

Runic will need gold sinks, and in my opinion, (expensive) respecs are a valid one.

[katsukilove]

A game is an escape from a world where fear of mistakes often prevents people from going for the heroic or exciting decisions, to punish people in what they do for fun and to relax is just cruel.

There can and should be no compromise on this issue, no control is needed beyond the self control of those who truly dislike the option to simply not use it. Not including it (or requiring mods which some may not be up to understanding) is truly a fascist conceit, removing others freedoms then placing the burden on them to adjust. You have the right to make the game harder for your self, but not for others.

I apologize but I can never seem to stress enough just how morally wrong this type of thinking is, as if a person on a diet should have the right to force the world to stop making any food not on there diet plan instead of taking it upon them selves to choose how to eat.

.

CRuel? Fascist? Morally wrong?

This is Torchlight, not treblinka. Do you have any idea what real fascism is? Part of my mate Kats family is Jewish. I've talked with family members who watched as people they love were herded off to concentration camps. Many of them died in gas chambers. This is a video game. Everyone in this thread needs some perspective. Wether it's in or out, your lives will go on. It's not worth bickering about.

This has nothing to do with morality. If Runic leaves it out, they're not being cruel. Messing up and having to make a new character isn't some form of torture.. It's not a hardship. We can MOD THE GAME, for crying out loud.

No wonder the mods haven't been poking their noses in here. I have half a mind to quit the damn forums until the damn game comes out. In, or out, it's not the end of the world. Wanting a respec in the game does not make you a crappy player. Not wanting respec in the game is perfectly fine, too.PEople step over the line when they assume that because THEY don't like the idea, nobody should have it. While this isn't CRUELTY, it's merely an OPINION, one they have a right to have, in my OPINION it's a silly idea. Sort of like people who think because gay people want to marry, it means that it somehow affects the sanctity of their marriage. It makes no sense.

Doom, I love you but what you're talking about is a)what does or doesn't make a character special depends on your own unique perspective. Different people have different perspectives. For instance, I seem to remember a certain demon bot who likes to speed through games vs my much slower pace. To my perspective, i'm the one climbing the mountain while you're on board the great glass elevator. Do I begrudge you your Doomey ways? No, all that matters to me is that you're enjoying playing the game. So, why is it ok for you to race through in one game and then turn around and imply that, because someone else decides to take that same elevator, it somehow affects how you perceive your own character? Sorry man but thats a bit of a double standard. As far as ignoring things...self control dude.

It's not my fault if others can't look at things from a different perspective. Personally, what I find special about a character has nothing to do with stats or anything like that, it has to do with how much fun I had playing the game.

That's the one problem with this thread, this forum and this world. Too few people trying to see things from other peoples perspectives.

+1, pretty much this.

IMHO, self controlling is the essence of real hardcore.

To recall the old final fantasy games (FF9 and its backward), the players replayed the games under very interesting constraints (such as lvl 1 walkthrough, single character walkthrough.... a lot, have a look at GameFaqs if interested), although the game does not even mention/expect these constraint nor enforcing players to do so.

TLDR: Real hardcores choose to climb Mt Everest on foot regardless there is a helicopter/evelator/etc or whatsoever, they are not trying to show off, instead they are just having more fun when they are challenging themselves, and of course the games must have enough depth for them to do so (they can't walk Mt Everest if the game provides elevator only)

[turnipz]

I got a compromise, each 5 skill point you re-assign requires you lose one skill point. So if you want to remove all your skills you just drop like 20 attribute points. Those that dont want respec wouldnt dare gimp their character, even as slightly as that.

[amb2010]

Turnipz, that defeats the point... If anything one thing repsec lets you do is fix a character you've felt you've gimped. Making the only way to do that...require gimping the character is rather redundant, no?

Also I'm too lazy to go through and find it but I recall someone saying based on this thread Runic will have problems with either option they take: They won't. It's their game and as such only they have the right to dictate how someone is able to play it. All the comments of "force players to play a specific way" is directed at other players that feel the need to act as if another person's play-style is somehow "beneath" them and shouldn't be included in a game because of that.

If Runic leaves it out, someone will mod it in or a quick edit of the save file will fix it. If they add it in, people will just ignore it. A big production is only ever made about it when discussing whether it should be in there or not for some reason, once it's all said and done no one really cares

[cheeseheads]

I got a compromise, each 5 skill point you re-assign requires you lose one skill point. So if you want to remove all your skills you just drop like 20 attribute points. Those that dont want respec wouldnt dare gimp their character, even as slightly as that.

that's not really a compromise. thats gimping your character. sorry wont work

[adoomgod]

Ok this is frustrating as people aren't really listening to me, they are glancing over the parts they don't want to focus on.

Hawkn, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that you can EASILY mod It. A respec mod. It won't hurt your online community as many will use it, I will even use it after I level my 12 characters.
Second, I said I would be fine with an expensive respec gold sink. If the respec is earned I don't mind at all.

Zidders, its not about self control, you really missed the point. I won't take the elevator, I will go up the hard way, but it does dismiss some of my sense of accomplishment in creating a build when I'm lumped together with everyone who can swap their build out all willy-nilly. Just make it a mod released with the game and I'm a bit happier. The way modding is going to work will make it very easy to find people to play with a respec mod.

Everyone, please calm down and read between the lines. I am not "that no respec guy." This is my COMPROMISE thread after all. Whether we all like it, it is a fact that there is a sufficient amount of people on both sides of the arguement to SUGGEST that we might all be better off with a compromise. I like full refund at level 10-15. I like try before you buy points. I am starting to come around to expensive gold sink respecs. Ok? Please stop claiming I'm enforcing my gamer dogma on you, I'm really freaking not.
There is a nicer way of saying "I disagree" without being snarky or rude.

TLDR, I'm not telling respeccers to bite me, I won't be bitter if the game is released with respecs. I think your allocations should hold some WEIGHT though and would prefer it if it wasn't super easy to swap things around in vanilla. I appreciate all your views on this matter (some things I believe in aren't up for debate but this one is) and ask that you really try to imagine the game coming out without your preferencw, and imagine trying to get used to it. It helped me.

[tolokoph]

Zidders, its not about self control, you really missed the point. I won't take the elevator, I will go up the hard way, but it does dismiss some of my sense of accomplishment in creating a build when I'm lumped together with everyone who can swap their build out all willy-nilly. Just make it a mod released with the game and I'm a bit happier. The way modding is going to work will make it very easy to find people to play with a respec mod.

hmm, i'm of the opinion you play for entertaining yourself, not how you compare to others and how they play the game. why worry about everyone else and what they do.

and why would it subtract from your own sense of self accomplishment?.. you still did whatever you set out to do... if anything I would think it would raise your level of accomplishment. Hey this guy did a respec, but I wanted to play 100+ more hours leveling up a new guy

why dont we just get rid of shared stashes also I guess