TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date)?

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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Brixtan » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:32 am

DeathWalker wrote:Hate to say it, as a paying customer who has played 100s of hours of TL and D2 with several co workers, if D3 comes out roughly the same time frame or before TL2, I will never touch TL2.

However,

If TL2 comes out a month or More than D3, yes I will buy it.

Sure, there will be diehards or people who cash crunches and rather spend $20 versus $60, but if Runic decides to compete in the ARPG market with the same or later release date, it will only hurt there bottom line sales. Simple math.


Fixed that for you. Honestly folks, who is this "we" you keep referencing? You sure don't represent the majority of gamers out there, let alone me.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby BloodyPred » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:32 am

I happen to believe the release of D3 before TL2 will affect TL2.
Sure you can like 2 types of "cookie" and like them both :D but I don't believe people will get tired of one ARPG and then jump into another. That's more like eating a chocolate flavored cookie and then going over to another brand of chocolate flavored cookie.
If you get bored of playing a ARPG you will most likely go and play something completely different.. I know I will anyway.
I'll probably end up buying both and playing one endlessly and then start playing the other one at a much later stage.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby RizzRustbolt » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:32 am

hawkn wrote:Who is this conventional guy? And why does he think he can make all the rules?

Werther P. Conventional VI. Owner of the Internet, and the Conventional Family Atom-Smashing Conglomerate. He rules the five wealthiest families of Europe from his gold plated zeppelin high above the Swiss Alps. He also happens to own the copyright on the word, "rules". So pretty much whatever he says, goes.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Zidders » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:36 am

RizzRustbolt wrote:
hawkn wrote:Who is this conventional guy? And why does he think he can make all the rules?

Werther P. Conventional VI. Owner of the Internet, and the Conventional Family Atom-Smashing Conglomerate. He rules the five wealthiest families of Europe from his gold plated zeppelin high above the Swiss Alps. He also happens to own the copyright on the word, "rules". So pretty much whatever he says, goes.

<3 Rizz
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby RizzRustbolt » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:40 am

Perictione wrote:23% of Americans cannot name the country America declared its independence from in 1776 (Great Britain)

Even though it was called The Kingdom of Great Britain at the time, the Declaration itself was sent to "His Majesty, the King of England". So we technically only succeeded from England's rule.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby RayBanJockey » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:27 am

RizzRustbolt wrote:
Perictione wrote:23% of Americans cannot name the country America declared its independence from in 1776 (Great Britain)

Even though it was called The Kingdom of Great Britain at the time, the Declaration itself was sent to "His Majesty, the King of England". So we technically only succeeded from England's rule.


I have a suspicion the demographics in the sub 25% percentiles are like eleven years old and younger. At that age I'd probably have a clue about the sun stuff, but not many of the other things. In defense of "dumb americans" that is, being a dumb swede myself. You wouldn't believe the stuff I didn't know about when I was eleven, I was like lalalalala oh look a pebble.

ANYWAY

The whole "D3 release date will affect TL2" thing, since this is the current thread for it. Obviously TL2 sales will be affected, but not as much as popele seem to think. It would have if D3 were a vastly superiour game that was all people really wanted to play but had to instead settle for TL2 for the time being until D3 is released, but looking at the available material from both games TL2 is clearly not the underdog people might think, or for some reason even hope. I'm convinced it'll shut a whole lot of doubters up when they actually get to play it. Because it's looking pretty smooth atm.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Perictione » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:51 am

RizzRustbolt wrote:Even though it was called The Kingdom of Great Britain at the time, the Declaration itself was sent to "His Majesty, the King of England". So we technically only succeeded from England's rule.


*chuckles quietly*

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

And that's just the first two paragraphs of the Introduction... (I thought all American school kids were taught to memorize this so as to be able to recite this from rote)

As to the document that was issued on July 5, 1776 by printer John Dunlop (yes, the date is correct - it took him a full day to produce the first 200 broadsheet copies that were generated from the draft that been accepted by Congress the day before, a Friday), contrary to popular accounts the King of Britain, George III, did not receive a broadsheet that had been signed by John Hancock et al. - the official signing ceremony did not take place until August 2, 1776 (well after a copy had been dispatched to Britain), and the signed document was then kept safe in Philidelphia with Charles Thomson, who served as the Secretary of the Continental Congress from 1774 to 1789.

The August 17th issue of the London Chronicle was the first newspaper in Great Britain to publish the Declaration, and it created quite a stir... especially as neither the King, his ministers or the British Parliament had received a copy. They knew, however, it was coming - In February the delegates to the Continental Congress wrote and published a letter that explicitly stated it was not Great Britain and her inhabitants or the King of Britain that the colonists opposed, but rather the actions of the British Parliament. The military actions that had recently begun to take place in New England were not to be interpreted as "aiming at independence", but instead as a defensive response to the aggressive actions initiated by Parliament.

Can you guess, therefore, to whom it was John Dunlop's broadsheet was addressed?

Lord North, the British Prime Minister, received the American Ambassadors quite cordially, they had tea and chatted aimiably for about half an hour - they were gentlemen all, and well knew their regard for one another was hardly going to be ruined by a slight case of war... although North was rather displeased that the Americans chose to publish the document openly before they had a chance to debate the matter in Parliament.

In turn, the King was duly notifed. Time passed, and in 1783, the King of Great Britain, at Parliament's request, signed a motion that recognized America's de facto separation from Britain.

(Really, I honestly thought all school children on both sides of the Atlantic knew this...)


- P.

EDIT: I should also point out that Thomas Jefferson's "A Summary View of the Rights of British America," a document written a few years before the Declaration of Independence, argued that allodial title, not feudal title, was everything; thus the people did not owe fees and rents for that land to the British crown. It's a very convincing argument that could likely be used today against the American Government itself.
Last edited by Perictione on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby D1Tremere » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:55 am

To be fair to TCs point, I have reasons for choosing Torchlight 2 over D3 but the majority won't.
These two games will directly compete regardless of dreams to the contrary, and in one corner is a game that will be receiving consistent online updates as well as expansions and add ons (D3) while in the other is a game that will ship as is save for a few bug patches (Torchlight 2).
I plan to buy T2 and may pick up D3, but the majority will only have time for one (if that one remains fresh for a long time via updates) and it will likely be D3.

I don't really think the release date will effect sells much in the long run, though out the gate T2 may lose some "passing time till D3" sells if they ship too late.

Also, expect T2 will have bugs and need a patch or two regardless of ship date. That's just the nature of games these days.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby ombra » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:58 am

The whole D3 before TL2 is really getting old. I don't care if D3 comes before or after I won't buy it, that is for sure. I will give my money to the small developers like Runic and Crate. Competition is everything and only if the small ones grow, there will be competition and innovation on the whole arpg gaming market.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Perictione » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:00 am

RayBanJockey wrote:I have a suspicion the demographics in the sub 25% percentiles are like eleven years old and younger. At that age I'd probably have a clue about the sun stuff, but not many of the other things.


That would be called researcher bias, and it would then be all to easy to dismiss PEWs research and use of statistics.

However, the folks at PEW are probably some of the best in the polling business (and so have earned a great deal of respect among professionals); they're careful identify the demographics of their respondents so as to not present skewed or distorted results.

When they say "20% of Americans", they're actually reporting a "blended" average across all age groups, typically ignoring outliers that would throw off the meaningfulness of the statistic they're reporting.

Now, anyone could look at my post as being another, "Oh, aren't those Yanks dumbies" sort of posts... or you could look at the numbers and think how could this true in a country that provides a good to very good public education. But then the American Government admits that 14% of Americans are illiterate, and that upwards of 20% are functionally illiterate. And then the figures tend to make a bit more sense. But the question remains, why should this be the case?


- P.
Last edited by Perictione on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby RizzRustbolt » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:21 am

Perictione wrote:
RizzRustbolt wrote:Even though it was called The Kingdom of Great Britain at the time, the Declaration itself was sent to "His Majesty, the King of England". So we technically only succeeded from England's rule.


*chuckles quietly*

(Really, I honestly thought all school children on both sides of the Atlantic knew this...)


- P.

You put that there as a trap, didn't you?
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Perictione » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:27 am

RizzRustbolt wrote: You put that there as a trap, didn't you?


Nope. I honestly believe that most folks know this subject as well as I do because (even though I'm not American, I believe) it was a pivotal moment in human history. In other words, it's important.

But at the same time I know there was a popular television program - ironically developed by FOX - that pitted the knowledge base of 5th graders against relatively well educated adults, and the adults didn't come off looking so good.

True, FOX was likely guilty of selection bias when it came to choosing contestants, but the point was made: something's not quite right with what people have been taught and what people remember.


- P.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby RizzRustbolt » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:38 am

Perictione wrote:
RizzRustbolt wrote: You put that there as a trap, didn't you?


Nope. I honestly believe that most folks know this subject as well as I do because (even though I'm not American, I believe) it was a pivotal moment in human history. In other words, it's important.

But at the same time I know there was a popular television program - ironically developed by FOX - that pitted the knowledge base of 5th graders against relatively well educated adults, and the adults didn't come off looking so good.

True, FOX was likely guilty of selection bias when it came to choosing contestants, but the point was made: something's not quite right with what people have been taught and what people remember.


- P.

I blame all those video games. They rot the brain.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby DeathWalker » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:45 am

Brixtan wrote:
DeathWalker wrote:Hate to say it, as a paying customer who has played 100s of hours of TL and D2 with several co workers, if D3 comes out roughly the same time frame or before TL2, I will never touch TL2.

However,

If TL2 comes out a month or More than D3, yes I will buy it.

Sure, there will be diehards or people who cash crunches and rather spend $20 versus $60, but if Runic decides to compete in the ARPG market with the same or later release date, it will only hurt there bottom line sales. Simple math.


Fixed that for you. Honestly folks, who is this "we" you keep referencing? You sure don't represent the majority of gamers out there, let alone me.


If you read had actually read my post, we is the people i associate with (hence i said co workers). I am making no claims or forecasts about the community or your personal gaming preferences.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Derekffs » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:41 am

Perictione wrote:Some other bits of convential wisdom (brought to you by your good friends at PEW Research Centre, providing quality research to all users of the WWW since 2000AD)

18% of Americans believe the sun rotates around the earth (it doesn't)

19% of Americans cannot identify America on an unlabeled map of the world (it's the country below Canada and above Mexico)

21% of Americans believe witches are real (and I'm not talking about wiccans, I'm talking about the broom-flying versions)

22% of Americans believe President Bush knew about the September 9/11 attacks in advance of them actually happening (he didn't)

23% of Americans cannot name the country America declared its independence from in 1776 (Great Britain)

49% of Americans have witnessed mean and offensive behavior on the net and they usually respond by ignoring it, but an astionishing 85% of American adults report that people on the 'net are quite nice (try to figure this one out....)

87% of Americans believe they live in a democracy (technically, folks, you live in a Constitutional Republic... it's not the same as a democracy)

And, so, something, something, something about convential wisdom?

Okay dokay :lol:


- P.


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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Zidders » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:20 am

Derekffs wrote:*snip*

You know, just because someone does something good doesn't give them a right to think or act like they're better than anyone else. It certainly doesn't mean you get to ignorantly mouth off about the good things america has done WITH THE HELP OF OTHER COUNTRIES (for instance, did you know that Canada played a huge role in getting the human race to the moon? That's right-the moon landing was an international project done for the sake of humanity, no matter what political motivations some people involved in it had at the time) and act like the US never does anything bad.

Jonas Salk? Yeah, he was American but his parents were from Ashkenazi Jewish Russian immigrant families. A lot of the research his own research was based on came from research done by researches in many different countries. World War II...really? Just us, huh? Never mind our allies from England, France, Australia, Turkey, etc. That's why it was called a WORLD war. Hell, Alan Turing? The guy who basically helped invent computers and the concept of artificial intelligence and a cryptanalyst who helped break many German ciphers, basically helping win the war? He was British.

Damn, you made an ignorant statement. Might want to try to be a bit more intelligent next time you put down other peoples intelligence. Way to just insult everyone on the forum.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby codemaster2b » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:25 am

Perictione wrote:And, so, something, something, something about convential wisdom?


Convential wisdom? We don't need nun of that!!!
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Arlian » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:25 am

@Derickffs: calm calm, no one here are enemies, let's not create any with hasty words and emotional candor.

@Perictione: Those statistics are grim indeed, however they don't have a basis without comparison toward other countries. Is a 14% illiteracy rate bad? Perhaps, but would it be bad relative to another first world country with a 18% or 22% illiteracy rate?

2 points:

1) The US educational system largely ignores the British reaction toward independence and largely tries to instill American loyalty instead of representing all sides of the story. Can't blame them, want to instill Patriotism early.

2) "Are you Smarter than a Fifth Grader" is done not because the people they choose are socially/intellectually compromised; it is chosen because this is information that most people do not remember as it is not pertinent to their daily lives.

As an example, why is the capitol of Vermont important to me? If I needed to know, I would visit Vermont. Education in the United States has never been about learning, it's been about learning how to learn, applying critical thinking... And, most importantly, constantly thinking. Its one of the things that annoys me the most, people DO NOT THINK; that's an outside issue.

Not critically thinking is the barrier that prevents people from understanding why Runic doesn't need to rush their product.
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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby Zidders » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:40 am

Montpelier (No I did not google)

While critical thinking is important, knowing state capitals, nations, history from all perspectives, etc is important, too. You never know when having that sort of information will provide you with as many different ways of looking at events. How we build our future really depends on how we perceive things that have happened in the past. Having as much information as we can about a wide variety of subjects helps us see things from a better perspective and point of view.

For instance, looking back at Diablo II and its legacy, as well as the history of gaming in general, helps us decide wether or not Diablo III is doing things right or doing things wrong, as well as wether or not Blizzards way of going about business and development is good or bad for us as consumers. Same with Runic. Having as much info as we can helps us when it comes to thinking critically. You and I might not think knowing the capitol of Vermont is Montpelier is important to us now, but you never know.


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Re: TL2 Still Racing D3 to Market (in Light of April D3 Date

Postby carrierx » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:44 am

well this thread sure ended up in a strange place...

lemme help..

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