Cheaters and hackers. TL2 v D3.

[Skelfing]

Hello.

I just wanted to voice my concern regarding the online multiplayer of TL2. I never played D2 on lan nor open Battle.net, ONLY on closed Battle.net. The reason is that "slot like" system the loot is. I know there were dupes and hacks, especially few years after release, but It was not allowed and many were afraid to use bots/hacks becouse they didnt want their account banned. Therefor Items had true value and thats the reason Blizzard is able to have a real money AH in D3, wich im very excited about, but Im also very excited about TL2 and Im trying to get into modding. Maybe Im in the minority here, but a cheat free enviroment to play in is really important imo for a game like this. I want to play with others who put "effort" in their toon. Ladders are cool too, and I think there is room for other leaderboards than just lvl ladders.

I love the art style of TL and I havent joined a single player game so much in many, MANY years. It would be SO good if they could have something similar to closed B.net.

And I salute Runic for releasing the exact same tools they used to create this exceptionally good game.

I know there is some kind of cheat tag in TL1, Is there going to be something like that in TL2? And are you going to be able to use something like respec mod without being tagged?

~Skelfing =)

[Syl]

I don't think it's a priority with this game.
TL2 will have mods and LAN support. I guess it's more a "fun game to play with friends" than a social experience to play with random strangers like D2 or D3.
I'm thinking more about Titan Quest.

[Endarion]

While I understand your point, it's worth considering that in these games, it's generally a lot more fun to play with people you know, or at least who feel the same way about it as you.

If someone obviously uses mods to gain many more items or whatever, then it's easy enough to leave. Unless there is an official ladder, which are you determined to lead legitimately, there is really no difference other than having to jump in and out of a few extra games.

And the fact that you do need to consider that will actually be a bond that helps you find more people you enjoy playing with, be it on the forums or in-game, and makes the experience better overall.


D2's problem wasn't hacking in-and-of-itself, it was that people could jump in, join you, kill you, and split, in an act of unabashed griefing, and that the trade system, which should have been fun, was pointless. As long as both parties need to agree before PvP-ing, and loot drops separately so they can't jump in and steal it, then by playing with people who respect your rules (and there will be lots!) it shouldn't be a big issue.

[Ragnar119]

There is no real need for secure server like bnet in diablo. Heck, even diablo 3 players doesn't need it anymore because of no ladder, no pvp. But blizard needs it for RMHA.

[Webbstre]

It's been outright on a few occasions by Max and some of the other devs that this is a game to play with your friends. It's not a game to expect that kind of closed battle.net-type system, especially with mods being available. However, some of the devs also have shown interest in maybe-possibly-hopefully-someday making player-run server functionality (where the players could host a server with server-side saves and the mods decided by the server-admin), in which case you may find semi-secure communities out there. Time will tell if we get that option though. For now, Runic can't afford running something like bnet.

[Syl]

D2's problem wasn't hacking in-and-of-itself, it was that people could jump in, join you, kill you, and split, in an act of unabashed griefing, and that the trade system, which should have been fun, was pointless. As long as both parties need to agree before PvP-ing, and loot drops separately so they can't jump in and steal it, then by playing with people who respect your rules (and there will be lots!) it shouldn't be a big issue.

In the end, it depends on what Runic want to achieve with their game, if they want to build a community around items and trading, or a community around modding.

I agree the lack of security to prevent dupes and cheats could ruin the game (like it kinda did with Titan Quest, but mostly because of pirated copies of the game), but if you play with your friends, it's not really a problem if you play by your rules.

It's pretty hard to enforce some kind of protection if Runic don't host the game on their servers (and I don't think they will because it costs some money, but I may be wrong...), people will always be able to generate items on their local server.

But I agree with you, it could ruin the fun, like making item runs irrelevant if you know you can dupe them. But I don't know how they could fix this except having some kind of battle.net.

[Skelfing]

It's been outright on a few occasions by Max and some of the other devs that this is a game to play with your friends. It's not a game to expect that kind of closed battle.net-type system, especially with mods being available. However, some of the devs also have shown interest in maybe-possibly-hopefully-someday making player-run server functionality (where the players could host a server with server-side saves and the mods decided by the server-admin), in which case you may find semi-secure communities out there. Time will tell if we get that option though. For now, Runic can't afford running something like bnet.

Thats cool... sorry if this has been discussed alot. I guess there is room for both TL2 and D3 on the market.

The simplicity of TL is what makes to so addictive... and the smooth, high FPS graphics.

[Webbstre]

Believe me, I've been pushing for player-run private servers since almost day 1. The potential is massive. Let's just hope after the game releases they have the time and see it as worthwhile to implement.

[Jackalhead]

I'd rather have freedom than security.

"He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin

Little did we know Mr. Franklin was really talking about mods when he said this.

[D2Hans]

There is a guild section here and you can either join in one of them or you can start your own. That way you can play with people that you do know.

In regards to ladders. I will likely create some tournaments for Torchlight 2 when the game is released. Some will be single player focused and some might be multiplayer focused. The rules will be posted. The key to the tournaments is to have fun and to learn different aspects of the game. I have been hosting tournaments for D2 mods since 2007.

The first few tournaments will be without any mods. Latter tournaments might have some mods involved.

It definitely would be nice if the community could set up some private servers either for vanilla TL2 and for TL2 mods. More sore for the full conversion mods if there will be any. I might make a full conversion mod in the future.

Here is the link for the guild section
viewforum.php?f=35

[Seer]

"He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin

That's pretty... deep. It brings dystopian sci fi in mind...

[hawkn]

This thread again.

Spoiler: show

Have you ever considered playing in a locked game with friends only?

[gold163]

the thing is if you only play with friends you can't really have ladders. Or at least, keeping track of ladders would be significantly more pointless.

[hawkn]

I really don't think ladders work in Torchlight 2's system.

[gold163]

Yeah, they probably won't unless Runic decides to implement private server support down the line. It's not really something I'm worried about but if someone was interested in ladders then that's one feature they'll have to do without.

[Zidders]

the thing is if you only play with friends you can't really have ladders. Or at least, keeping track of ladders would be significantly more pointless.

Trying to have a ladder for Torchlight II IS pointless. That's the point. Tournaments and ladders are pointless unless you do something like have a contest between friends where you know none of them are going to cheat, or have a guild thing where everyone understands that it's just for fun. No matter what, you're hopefully playing with people you've taken enough time getting to know that you know they're reasonably trustworthy.

People who expect Blizzards servers to be 100% secure are foolish. Bliz will spend tons of money trying to look like they're doing something about hacking but in the end, the hackers always win. Serious hackers don't do it for monetary gain, they do it for cred. That's why (to me, at least) trying to compete in a non-LAN internet-connected game where millions of people are connected to a single server is utterly pointless.

[wolfpaq777]

Yeah that would be nice. As it is now everyone is going to just download the GIVE-YOURSELF-GOD-ITEMS (TM) mod so there's no way to tell who got their gear legit and who didn't.

That alone is the #1 reason that D3 > TL2 for me.

Oh, and I hope your computer's hd doesn't crash because if it does all of your characters are gone forever.

[Brixtan]

I really don't think ladders work in Torchlight 2's system.

I agree for the most part. They would only work if Runic decided to put out private server support. Even then, the chances of Runic having the time/man power/money to host their on dedicated servers for TL2 would be slim at best.

[Zidders]

Yeah that would be nice. As it is now everyone is going to just download the GIVE-YOURSELF-GOD-ITEMS (TM) mod so there's no way to tell who got their gear legit and who didn't.

That alone is the #1 reason that D3 > TL2 for me.

Oh, and I hope your computer's hd doesn't crash because if it does all of your characters are gone forever.

First off, not everyone is going to download a god items mod. Again, if you play with friends, all you gotta do is mutually agree not to use mods. If they're true friends, you'll all play legit. There's nothing wrong with messing around with spawned items when you're hanging out with friends, too, when you just feel like fucking around.

As far as saves go, if you're that worried about it, i'm sure the Steam version will have Steam cloud support, and i'm pretty sure cloud support won't be messed up this time around. Or back it up on a usb drive. It's not like noones ever lost a Bliz character, by the way. Bliz servers are just as prone to failure as any other physical device.

Really, if your number one reason D3 is better than Torchlight II is the fact that people might use hacked items, you've never played Diablo or Diablo II. Those games were full of hacked items the day they came out. What makes you think Diablo III will be any different? People have successfully hacked the beta client, the game will be no different. It all comes down to playing with people you know and trust. Expecting random games or ladders to be hack free and fair is ridiculous.

[carrierx]

Yeah that would be nice. As it is now everyone is going to just download the GIVE-YOURSELF-GOD-ITEMS (TM) mod so there's no way to tell who got their gear legit and who didn't.

That alone is the #1 reason that D3 > TL2 for me.

Oh, and I hope your computer's hd doesn't crash because if it does all of your characters are gone forever.

Why would you give yourself god items ? It kinda ruins the fun of it all.

That's what games are supposed to be, fun.

As far as losing your characters, just like everything else on a computer, make a backup ? I think the steam cloud thing also does it for u...