Chthon wrote:jamesL wrote:since skills take the DPS value of weapons then how is the DPS value on weapons rendered useless ?
the more DPS a weapon has, the more damage a skill does, so comparing weapon DPS essentially compares skill damage
1. This has nothing to do with skills in particular. The problem will exist across the board.
2. The problem is that the weapon DPS display does not reflect the fact that different damage types will have very different multipliers.
3. An example may help:
Imagine you have 200 strength and 100 focus. Further imagine that you are presented with an choice between two swords. One says "100DPS." The other says "90DPS." Which would you choose? Probably the one that says "100DPS," right? Well, it was the wrong choice. If you look at the smaller text, the "100DPS" swords says "100 physical damage, 1 sec attack interval"; and the "90DPS" sword says "45 physical damage, 45 fire damage, 1 sec attack interval." After applying your strength bonus, the "100DPS" sword will do 200 damage each second. What about the "90DPS" sword? Depending upon whether the strength and focus bonuses stack additively or multiplicatively, it will either do 202.5 or 225 damage each second. In either case, the weapon with the lower DPS displayed actually does more base damage in practice. Thus, the DPS display on the weapons was so misleading as to be worthless.
why is the underlined sentence impossible ?
why isn't it the average ?
don't you alternate hands when you dual wield ? so you're hitting with one weapon 1/2 the time and the other weapon the other 1/2
so if the R handed weapon does 100 DPS and the L handed weapon does 200 DPS and each weapon strikes once per second, then in 2 seconds you've striked once with each weapon, for a total of 300 / 2 seconds or an average of 150 per second ? not a sum of 300 right ? or am I misunderstanding something ?
1. It's impossible because it's internally inconsistent. You can average DPS or you can have "each weapon attack[] at its own rate," but there's no way to do both.
2. You seem to be confusing DPS -- damage per second -- with damage per hit. (With a correct dual wielding implementation, overall DPS should be the sum of both weapons' DPSs and overall average damage per hit should be a weighted average of both weapons' damage per hit. (See #3 for why it must be a
weighted average.)
3. Assuming Travis was correct in saying "each weapon attacks at its own rate," you do
NOT alternate hands unless your weapons have the same attack speed. Imagine one weapon that attacks once per second and another that attacks once every four seconds -- would they alternate? Obviously not. (At least not in real life. TL1 gets it wrong.)
4. If, as you say, "each weapon strikes once per second," then, in 2 seconds you would strike
TWICE with each weapon, not once.
5. You've put me in a position where I'm trying to justify some very fundamental mathematics, which is quite tricky. Imagine being asked to prove that 1 does not equal 0 without being able to say "look, 1 obviously does not equal 0." (Don't feel bad -- it may be fundamental, but it's not necessarily intuitive -- Runic got it wrong in TL1 after all.)
6. This is one way that might make it intuitively clearer for you: Imagine there are two people in your game. Each has a sword and shield combo. Each is attacking at their own attack rate according to the weapon they have. One is doing 100DPS. The other is doing 80DPS.
They are on a team. How much total DPS is the team doing? 180DPS, right? You just add them together and take the sum. Easy enough.
Now, if instead of two people, there are two hands on one person, is anything going to be different? The answer should be "no." Total DPS should be the sum in both cases.
7. This is another way that might help make it intuitively clearer: Imagine you have a sword in your right hand and nothing in the left. Your sword does 10 damage per hit, and attacks once per second. How much total damage will you do in 10 seconds? 100 damage. What's your DPS? 10DPS. Now, imagine that you have a "rather pathetic magic pebble of slowness" in your left hand. It does 10 damage per hit, and attacks once every 10 seconds. How much total damage will the pebble do in 10 seconds? 10 damage. What's the pebble's DPS? 1DPS. So, now, what's your overall damage done in 10 seconds? 110 damage. (10 damage for each of 10 sword swings, plus 10 damage for one pebble attack.) What's your overall DPS? 11DPS. Which is the
sum of your weapons' DPSs.
(If you're having trouble picturing this, ACT IT OUT. Go up to a whiteboard with a red (10 damage, 1 sec attack interval) marker in your right hand and a green (10 damage, 10 sec attack interval) marker in your left hand, and swing them at the board -- the red marker once per second, the green marker once per 10 sec -- for 10 sec. Then count the marks you made. You will find 10 red and one green. Which jives with what I jut said above.)
Which comes back to the issue at hand (sorry pun):
A correct dual wielding implementation will give you an overall DPS that is the sum of both weapons' DPSs. Runic got it wrong in TL1. I'm bringing it up because I really, really want to see it done right in TL2. (And I'm bringing it up a second time because Travis's internally inconsistent statement didn't inspire confidence.)What appears to have happened in TL1 is that they forced you to alternate hands -- probably to make it easier to animate. This slows down both weapons because each hand is left
idle while the other is attacking. (Instead of "attack, attack, attack, attack...," each hand now goes "attack, wait, attack, wait...") So it's not true (in TL1) that "each weapon attacks at its own rate." The final attack interval for each weapon is equal to the sum of the attack intervals of both weapons -- which means half speed if the other weapon has the same attack interval. (Otherwise, the faster weapon slows down more and the slowdowns on both weapons average to half speed overall.)
So....
The "really, really right way" to implement dual wielding is to let each arm swing totally independently (no forcing alternation), thereby removing the idle periods.
A "mostly right way" to implement it would be to do it like TL1, but add 100% speed boost to correct half speed back up to full speed. (See
TL1 mod that does exactly that.) This implementation gets the math right, so it's balanced, but the animation isn't quite right. (Instead of "attack, attack, attack, attack...," each hand goes "super_fast_attack, wait, super_fast_attack, wait...")
in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpXQO76bjrY around 5:47, Max said when you dual wield you have a chance to do an Exceute attack, where you attack with both weapons at once, so that would be a sum and an advantage to dual wielding
Unless execute does so much damage that it makes up for missing half the DPS you're supposed to have, it won't fix the problem. Even then, execute costs points in focus. You shouldn't have to sink resources to get back something you should have had in the first place.
And thank you for calling me sir 
