Synkh - VHHC Arbiter (Caster Vanquisher)

[Dragonfly]

Hello!

I'm new to the game / forums, but while patiently (read: not) awaiting diablo 3 i was looking into other games, and of course i wound up in torchlight. Gonna be honest and admit i'm shallow - first time i booted up the game, i looked at the 3 class options, and then closed the game. They just looked like the same old thing... plus, i pretty much only play female characters / casters, which didn't appear to be an option - it's just the way i am... since almost as long as i've been gaming (i started early), possibly brought around by reading a few compelling science fantasy novels when i was younger (obernewtyn was a favourite)... but i digress.

These forums are active, btw, right?!

Anyway, i'm a bit of an RPG veteran (hence making my first post in the hardcore subforum), so naturally i started on very hard difficulty - i don't usually play hardcore in RPG's though, however, i've recently been getting into some oldschool roguelikes - angband, dwarf fortress - and really enjoyed the 'permadeath' aspect of those games, so i decided to see how torchlight played if i treated it like a roguelike. I basically i assumed i was going to get bored in 5 minutes anyway, so i might as well try anything to make things interesting.

Turns out i was wrong (yay!).

It took me about 10 levels and probably a solid 4 hours of google searches to finally comprehend the character customisation available in this game. It is truly a triumph of game design. Everything i have tried in the game so far has been viable, even the stuff that people seemed to be saying wasn't - and i should caveat that by pointing out that i am a huge fan of unconventional playstyles. I'm that guy that was trying nydus worms in placement matches when i first started playing starcraft 2, dumping all my points into charged bolt simply because it felt awesome long before synergies existed in diablo 2, not bothering to summon my pet for end-game raids / arenas in world of warcraft simply because i hate classes that force pets on you, but love the warlock playstyle (i was once guild kicked for not having professions, despite outperforming healers (later played a disc priest) in much better gear (maybe they forgot to check the absorbs meters!), made rival in 2's in season 3/4 running petless affliction with an enhancement shaman). Etc etc. Where was i going with this silly ego-rant?

Oh yeah. Torchlight is f*cking awesome.



- Now that the intro is out of the way... -



So after some playing around and looking at skills, I have settled on the Arbiter tree (Vanquisher) - the idea is basically a warlock/litch class, dealing with frost and lightning damage. Using wand + shield, focusing on being able to take a beating (it is hardcore after all) and not flinch. Current skills are Defensive Spellcasting (rank 4), Wind of Justice (rank 6), Lightning Bomb (rank 8) and Armor Expertise (rank 10) - i'm skipping flame trap and that ricochet-style one for the sake of flavour... by the way, when i say "arbiter", i mean playstyle, not skill tree choice :x - still waiting on that top tier lightning trap... Spells include Draining Touch III, Heal IV, Frost III and Elemental Protection IV, though i'm still tossing up between Draining Touch and Silence.

Personal handicaps include:

I'm not using pets (he's on passive) because i don't really like them (although i am loving the option to make him vendor my trash), though i am considering adopting an ice or lightning elemental if i can manage to find the fish with that permanent effect (have named my pet Familiar in anticipation of this, woot roleplaying!) - hence why i've bothered fishing at all.

I'm not using summons, even though you'd think the summon spells in this game would suit perfectly a warlock style character, simply because i wanted the challenge of having things beat on me alone (and the thrill of surviving it).

I'm not using multiple tiers of the same spell (eg. Heal Self VI, V and IV so you have 3 different heal cooldowns) because it seems a bit cheesy - plus it cuts down on my spell options, which are kind of the key to the whole idea of turning the 'archer' class into a caster.

I'm trying not to abuse portal maps to out-level content (though portal maps seem to scale to your level so they're usually harder anyway).

Making minimal use of the shared stash - basically storing excess gems and spells, and the odd piece of gear i'm not sure i want to use, as opposed to stocking it with low level stuff incase i die.

Finally, i try to avoid running away from anything - i will stand my ground until i am literally about to die. Suffice to say there have been some close calls, but oh boy the thrill of power is intoxicating...

I think that's about it really? All in all, having an absolute blast so far. I have died and restarted 4 times - with the last play ending at level 17 on that colossus boss (i think i was a bit low level for him?) - though it hasn't become repetetive at all yet. Did not expect to be enjoying the game so much. Also, to anyone wondering about the whole Arbiter playstyle, let me just say fast wands with mana leech are amazing (my current wand is an absolute beast), and lightning bomb is, well, the bomb.



- Anyway, i'll assume you scrolled past my wall of text (which is good because i probably sound like an elitist ass) - so here's the TLDR: -



Synkh - Level 19 Arbiter (Caster Vanquisher):







I'll probably update if i die / finish the game, or if anyone comments - comments, questions, flames, etc all welcome!

Ciao for now :)

[Rusty]

Welcome to you as well! We are an active community, so take a look around and enjoy!

[Dragonfly]

Sweet, thanks!

Also, i apologise for the massive first post... i get a bit obsessed in the "honeymoon period" of a new game sometimes, haha.

Update edited into this post to avoid double-posting:

Figured i'd post here because every other VHHC Arbiter / Trapper thread i've found is from 2009 (please point me in the direction of recent discussion if you're aware of it!).

Some observations from my continuing play... made it to level 21 now, unfortunately an enchantment shrine ate my wand (!) so i've had to do some scrounging and shopping for another fast speed wand, and then saving of money to enchant it back up again... fast wands really seem to make this build, even if just for a little mana leech, though i am having good success with health leech as well, as long as i keep my health pool high enough. Alternating between wand attack and spells (primarily lightning bomb) seems to work very well.

I'm starting to think that either dex or str might be worth investing into after all, probably str, purely for the sake of being able to use stronger armor. Dex would also probably (maybe?) give access to some stronger armor than what i'm mostly using, perhaps not as much as str but with an added bonus of upping wind of justice and lightning bomb's damage (from what i've read, lightning bomb gains 50% from dex and 150% from mag - jury is still out on whether wind of justice (and frost, for that matter - i may have to focus entirely on lightning damage) will be worthy damage later on, however).

One good reason to focus on survivability with this build is that lightning bomb gains tremendously from a stationary target - i suppose summons or even wind of justice (or any stun) is ideal, but i've found that if you time it right, you can wait till a monster reaches you, then hit it with lightning bomb before its attack lands, and generally speaking you'll 1-shot most things.

Whether my build remains viable in the later game remains to be seen, but so far so good!

[dreamrider]

Wind of Justice will do damage = 50% of your current Dex Attribute points + 50% of your current Mag Attribute points + the Skill specific damage listed in the Skill pop-up. So it shouldn't matter which Attribute you put the points into for this purpose.

Lightning Bomb does not appear to benefit from any Attribute. There are a few Skills that benefit from 'hidden' (undocumented) adds that were added late in balancing, but mostly these are c-level based. You can find some discussion of them in the forums if you search carefully. I don't recall LB being one of those Skills, however.

dreamrider

[Dragonfly]

Yes, you make a good point about WoJ, although dex would add more damage than str. Nevertheless, looks like strength might be the go, lightning bomb is doing fine as is anyway, and WoJ seems to be more about the knockback and stuns. I'm really starting to feel the low armor levels.

And oh, looks like i might be able to return the favour of information sharing! I dug this up during my searching (being a web designer i'm good at that sort of thing):

http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10985#p101986

TESLABOMB (teslabomb.dat) deals 80-140% damage modified 50% by Dexterity and 150% by Magic and a mild Knockback effect.

I can also confirm that my current level of the spell is dealing much higher damage than is noted on websites such as http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Torchlight/Vanquisher#Lightning_Bomb, which does seem to indicate it is drawing extra damage from somewhere, though i'm not sure if those tables include character level scaling or just skill level scaling.

[dreamrider]

Sorry, I meant that WoJ should be affected the same way by points put into either of the Dex and Mag Attributes. I was considering the Skill narrowly, not your overall build decision.

In terms of where to put a few extra points, a few points in Str wil probably open up some armor options sooner, but there are good armor options keyed to all three of the active Attributes. To tell the truth, I'm a little extreme about my build pattern. I level each Attrib at 7, then dump every level gain 1 def, 4 dex forever. then I rely on gear bonuses to get my other attributes up to the levels needed to equip improved armor.

I spend some time collecting and enchanting cheap rings and necklaces, because jewelry seems to have a slightly higher than random chance to pick up Attrib bonuses.

Cool find on the lightning bomb effects; that makes it a MUCH more desirable Skill. A low level start on it also.

I used to tell people to steer clear of Ice pilium, there were other Skills that did its major benefits better. But just recently the idea of trying a Ice Pilium based build has begun to grow on me. 5 sec frozen/slowed is a LONG time, and there have been recurring speculations in the forum, which my observations agree with, that frozen critter seem a bit easier to finish off, like maybe there is a hidden negative to armor or hidden bonus to subsequent damage. That might make up for the fact that the ultimate increase in DPS multiplier is much lower than with Ricochet, ES, SS.

I'm pretty sure that the strategywiki tables are from before patch 1.15.

dreamrider

[Dragonfly]

All good :) i think i knew what you meant, heh.

I have been going roughly 3def:2mag, more recently more like 4def:1mag, but i just started noticing a couple of pieces i couldn't use due to strength requirements, and they seemed to have alot more armor and health on them, which i am definitely in need of.

Thanks for the jewelery tip! I was wondering how much of a factor stat bonuses on gear will end up being, i may not need to invest much in str after all if i can find the right gear, indeed.

Ice pilum sounds fun, i was looking at that before i switched my build to arbiter :) i've always felt like slows were invaluable to ranged characters, even if there was a loss of dps.

Are you aware of any torchlight wiki that is up to date? The strategywiki pages seemed to have the most information. I suppose it doesn't matter greatly anyway, you can still get a rough idea of how things work.

Cheers.

[dreamrider]

The wiki on Runic Games Fansite is going to be the most 'up to date', because the site and its webmaster are still very active. There are gaps however. Whoever did most of the work on Strategy wiki was exhaustive about Spell effects, Skill effects, etc, various tabular data, to the extent that it was then known. (You should add the bit about LB to both.)

dreamrider

[Morbus]

Dragonfly, was your dwarf killed by Slitheredlow in 272? I am currently working on a mod that makes a later part of the game more dangerous. If you know the dwarf reference, you might be interested.

Spoiler: show

I am not spoiling this here in case you don't know what you will encounter later in the game.

[Dragonfly]

dreamrider - Cheers. I will do that when i have some free time (uni assignments piling up! argh!)

Morbus - Unfortunately, no. Though i did some googling and it sounded like fun, anyway! I used to love reading horrible stories about dwarf mutilation over on the bay12forums (fyi, my username over there is "schismatise"), though i must admit i haven't played any dwarves in a few weeks now. I'm not overly worried about torchlight spoilers for the record, but i guess there's no point in spoiling things for no reason. Hopefully it won't be a problem in the near future when i've beaten the game!

Which leads me to my next update...

Death!

Alas, Synkh has fallen. Made it to level 24 (almost 25!), and once again i was slightly overconfident, took on a champion goblin stabber toe-to-toe and didn't walk away. It was right at the end of a portal map (the ones you get for those 'find the ember' quests), and though i probably should have been okay, i didn't notice his ally creep up behind me and block my path on the stairs. Couple of large hits with my potion on cooldown and nowhere to run, and thus the story comes to an end.

Well, that chapter of it anyway! Bring on attempt #5...



Starting with leech gems definitely helps things along in the first few levels.

So - time for some observations and thoughts on my build. Things seem to be working out fairly well... but towards those higher levels, i was starting to feel a little squishier, and my wand was definitely falling behind. Generally speaking i have been able to tank 1-2 melee mobs without feeling hugely threatened, though crits can be an issue. I had many, many close calls in the last 5 levels, actually. Large crits out of nowhere leaving me on very little health. Scary stuff!

I think i've got my stat distribution sorted out though. It's basically about 4:1 defense:magic the whole way. i've decided not to invest in dex or str, and get those from items if need be. Skills are feeling good, too, lightning bomb is an absolute killer to anything standing still, and there are many ways to make things stand still - letting them hit you being the less safe of those, heh. But probably the most fun ;)

My block chance was up to 29% also, which was really helping, and i only had 5/10 of the block & parry skill.

If it does turn out that i simply can't get enough defense going, while maintaining decent damage, then i may look into heavy strength investment and stick purely to high armor gear.

In terms of damage, i think i will really need to master enchanting to push the viability into the higher levels. Particularly on rings and weapon - i'm going with fast wands all the way for leeching purposes, which means extra damage from gear or enchants - rings seem to have it fairly commonly - adds up quickly, and helps avoid the situation where my wand is taking 10 or more hits to kill things. I'm not sure if i'll be going for the skill that boosts wand damage, though i hope to in the higher levels maybe, i think it might be necessary. Alternatively, maybe i should be looking for more +lightning/ice % damage stats? Though that would rely on the weapon (and any rings) having those damage types (which they usually do - the fast wands seem to be mostly lightning and ice damage).

Anyway, still having a blast! This game is wicked fun. I think i will definitely try a rogue (melee vanq) at some point as well, though i'm hoping to at least finish the main questline with an arbiter first.

Questions, comments and especially suggestions much appreciated. But don't feel bad for just reading and not posting, i'd like to think at least someone (other than myself) is enjoying the tale :)

Ciao for now!

Afterthought: Just have to say, i thought diablo 3 was doing the right thing not allowing manual stat allocation... but i really love the way torchlight handles stats, it makes for such interesting character builds. Rock on, Runic.

[dreamrider]

Personally, I think that is way overboard on Def points, given that you are commiting to a ranged weapon (wand). Then again, you are trying to make LB your main killer technique, and the Bomb is not supposed to be Attribute dependent. As I have mentioned before, I tend to favor rather a glass cannon sort of build, 4:1 (in my case Dex:Def), but I understand the 3:2 and 2:3 approaches. 1:4 just seems to me to be over-emphasizing the supporting Attribute.

BTW, FWIW since the wand is both a magic weapon and a ranged weapon, you should get just as much benefit out of Dex as out of Mag, as far as building up your weapon damage. Splitting whatever points you are willing to allocate to offensive Attributes between the two flavors would broaden the scope of armor you can wear. A lot of the better armors in the game, in terms of pure Armor value, are actually Dex & Def based.

Also note, you will eventually start running into some long-range attackers (everybody's boogy--er--girl, the Dark Zealot, comes to mind) who can hurt you more massively in a shot than any concievable leech can keep up with. You will need to be agile, with some decent Armor and Armor enhancements, and a lot of Block and resistance, especially Electrical and Poison resistance, to survive. Now, on the resistance front, your super-heavy Def build will help a lot...but I still think it is overkill...er...overlive???.

dreamrider

[Dragonfly]

Hm, yes, you're probably right, heh. Actually, i've done another flip-flop and gone with strength, so right now it's more like 3def:1mag:1str, which no doubt seems a bit silly!

But i think the main thing is that i am prioritising "roleplaying" (flavour) over viability, in a sense. I think you're right that i would be Much better off being a glass cannon, and focusing on mobility and damage... but that's not the point of my build ;) I plan on making mobility the focus of my melee rogue, and going with tank-style for my arbiter. As i mentioned, i love doing things that shouldn't work and trying to make them work. A caster shouldn't be able to stand there and tank a dozen melee mobs while still dishing out loads of damage... but it's fun to try! When i say i try to stand my ground, i mean i literally let myself get surrounded, purely for the challenge of surviving it - it's incredibly satisfying when you do (to me, anyway).

I was under the impression dex did not add to wand damage - from what i read, people seemed to be saying that str increased melee physical damage, dex increased ranged (guns / bows etc) physical damage, and magic increased all elemental damage, regardless of the type of weapon that elemental damage was on.

Hmm! If you're right about dex & def being the late game high armor stats, and dex does indeed increase wand elemental damage, then dex would be the better stat than str for sure... However, in my current playthrough i've stumbled across a few pieces of gear that require str and def, and the extra armor is really showing. Maybe (probably) i just didn't prioritise armor enough on the last attempt.

You're right on the leech, it's not really enough to keep up with the huge amounts of damage i take (though maybe if i get MORE leech...! (and more armor)). But it definitely does help me avoid spamming potions and excessive trips to town - which, again, is just a flavour i'm going for, i guess. I love the zero downtime feel.

And yeah, those Zealots are fun, that charge attack is devastating, and the casters... oh man! I focused alot on elemental resistances in my previous attempts, and i'm sure it saved my life more than once, even though i ended up dying due to lack of armor. Block doesn't seem like it will be a problem at least, i should be able to hit 50% by around level 30 (i read it capped there).

Anywho, i do appreciate your advice, and the resulting conversation, even if it seems like i'm in complete defiance :)

[Morbus]

Dragonfly, dreamrider makes a good point about the magic attribute. It boosts any elemental damage your character does, it does not matter what item the damage is on. But I disagree about the glass cannon, the later part of the game makes good defence a must, especially the purple wonderland, and if you take your character past the pre-made item limits, you will either need to become a mad enchanter like dreamrider or add another tier of items.

[Dragonfly]

Aye, aye. Hm, part of me has been wondering about the idea of skipping the magic attribute altogether and relying purely on the arbiter skills, which scale with level, heh. Imagine how hard to kill i would be with every single point invested into defense! :P Except it seems that glancing blows don't proc leech effects, so that probably would end up breaking my build concept.

From looking at the char screen, it seems dex definitely does add to wand damage. I think if i have enough armor, i can get away with a little less def. So maybe 2:2:1 def:mag:dex.

Oh and yes, becoming a mad enchanter sounds like epic fun :) ... despite the setbacks (noo my epic shield!)

[dreamrider]

I'm not mad. I wouldn't call a silly ring 'Precious'!

(I do have a necklace called Pretty, and a rifle called...er...Rambo - but that's not the same thing at all. They would never leave me like that faithless 'Precious' dross; they love me, and they take care of my girls.)

dreamrider

[dreamrider]

Dragonfly, check out the release notes for v.1.15. A couple of the Arbiter Skills, um, Flame Trap and Shock Trap, I think, scale with Pet Mastery as well. (NOT Flechette Trap, darn it!)

dreamrider

[Morbus]

dreamrider -



Dragonfly, the wand in your picture does physical damage, that is why your character's dexterity matters.

Strength -> physical mêlèe
Dexterity -> physical ranged
Magic -> any elemental

Anything that does elemental damage benefits from the magic attribute, this makes the magic attribute the most all-purpose one.

[dreamrider]

morbus,
It ain't quite that simple.

See zekrom's excellent backward engineering of the general damage calculation:
http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21317&p=199180#p199180

"...damage can be classified like this->
1.physical,f,i,e,p(magic affects only elemental components of any weapon)
2.melee(strength affects all components of any melee wpn,staffs too),ranged(dexterity affects all components of any ranged wpn,wands too)..."

dreamrider

[Dragonfly]

Ah! Yeah, i had a feeling there was something going on there. Upping my char's dex does increase ranged damage (displayed next to dex) and elemental/magic damage (displayed next to mag), but at very slightly differing amounts compared to upping magic instead. It looked to me like the ranged damage was the elemental damage + any physical damage effects, or something. Anywho, it's another good reason to mix dex into the arbiter build. It's just a shame my strength-based one hasn't died yet, lol. Soon enough, i'm sure.

Cheers :)

[dreamrider]

Probably a difference in minor damage bonuses from gear. Review your other gear carefully.

With a wand equipped (also counts as a ranged weapon, recall), however, if I am thinking it through correctly, your "elemental damge you currently inflict" should never exceed your ranged damage, as all of that elemental damage should be counted as part of the ranged damage total.

dreamrider