What Level Do You Want Respec to Stop?

[Zidders]

Hermokrates
______________________________________________________________________________________________
The Regime of Freedom Stealing Gameplay Nazi's
and the
Socialist Overlords of False Choice



Great album name. Didn't I once see you open for Rush?

[Chthon]

This thread was supposed to discuss the optimal time to turn respecing off in the game, not argue whether it should be there at all or unlimited.

That's kind of like saying:

I want your advice: Should I cut one inch off my member, or two? Oh no, no, no -- don't tell me that I shouldn't be cutting it at all. Just tell me one inch or two.

[sephelutis]

there is actually a good respect system i found from a game, basically respec starts out at a fairly high price (compare to amount of money that player have) and then for every respec you have, the price doubles, so eventually you cannot afford it anymore (except farm alot)

[Reat]

This thread was supposed to discuss the optimal time to turn respecing off in the game, not argue whether it should be there at all or unlimited.

That's kind of like saying:

I want your advice: Should I cut one inch off my member, or two? Oh no, no, no -- don't tell me that I shouldn't be cutting it at all. Just tell me one inch or two.

In case you missed the very first post, the devs at Runic specifically stated that they are implementing a limited respec based on level or time.

If case you find you don’t like the way you’ve assigned skills, there will be a way to respecialize and reallocate points, but such functionality will be limited. Runic co-founder Max Schaefer says he hates the idea of respecialization because it takes away from the importance of decision making while leveling. At some point while playing Torchlight II you’ll no longer be able to refund and redistribute skill points, meaning you need to think very carefully about how you’d like to upgrade your character. Also like in Diablo II, leveling up awards you with statistic points that you can use to increase your character’s base stats. Unlike the skill points, these will not be refundable at all.

The point of this thread was to discuss the optimal time that cutoff would occur, not to ignore what the devs said completely.

[Twilit]

Level 15. Suck it up, buttercups!

[Chthon]

In case you missed the very first post, the devs at Runic specifically stated that they are implementing a limited respec based on level or time.

I did not miss the very first post. Nor does it vitiate my point. It remains stupid to ask the best way to do something stupid that you shouldn't be doing at all. The fact that Runic has officially announced that they plan to do something stupid only makes it officially stupid.

[Arlian]

In case you missed the very first post, the devs at Runic specifically stated that they are implementing a limited respec based on level or time.

I did not miss the very first post. Nor does it vitiate my point. It remains stupid to ask the best way to do something stupid that you shouldn't be doing at all. The fact that Runic has officially announced that they plan to do something stupid only makes it officially stupid.

That's always good news, because I hate the stupid limitations imposed by forcing stupid arbitrary replay for the sake of stupid gameplay consequence.

[Deadnoob]

The game is the reason to do so, not the lack of an option to respec. Again, replay value is the desire to go through it again, not being forced to.

Well, for me watching my character progress through the choices I make is a major reason why I play the game. If you take that away, you're taking away the reason why I enjoy playing games like Dungeon Crawl, Baldur's Gate and Torchlight.

That's just it, though. Allowing me to respec whenever I choose doesn't take anything away from you. With unlimited respecs the only person who can take that away from you is you. My choice has no impact on your game play.

I want attachment to my character - if I can simply change my character mid-game, I don't feel that attachment and I also don't feel any point to leveling up. It might as well just be an action game. I realise these statements need to be fleshed out, but that's the basic premise. It's a gaming arche-type and I like it.

There's an argument to be made that the lack of respecs actually discourages attachment to your character. If you play through XX levels and decide you don't like the way you've built your character, what option do you have? Abandon the character and start over. Kind of the opposite of attachment, if you ask me. If a no respec system is put in place with the intent of promoting attachment to the character, and through the lack of respecs forces you to start from scratch if you make a mistake, don't like the build, or the skills get rebalanced and destroy your build, then the system has failed to accomplish it's ostensible goal.

I've been thinking more about this and am actually getting a little depressed. Have we, as gamers, become so conditioned to accept crappy boring game play that the only reason we can find to replay a game is trying out a new build? Perhaps instead of campaiging for no respec, gamers should consider campaigning for quality game play that leaves us actually wanting to play again.

-EDIT- The preceeding is not a statement on the quality of TL2 gameplay. I find it quite enjoyable and would gladly play through the game several times. It's a statement on gaming in general.

I'm not sure why you directed that at me. I don't feel like there's anything crappy or boring about the game, or trying out new builds. I see the build as a part of the game and as a neccessary aspect of what the game is. If there was no build system, then there'd be a totally different game. I doubt D&D would have half the popularity without the character creation system and the decisions you make on level-up. I doubt, either would Torchlight. I'm not campaigning for no respec at all. The thread asked for an opinon and I gave it - I understand some limited form of re-spec will be in the game and I'm confident it will be done right. I just don't buy this whole arguement that your whole character should be customizable from the ground-up, halfway through the game. The gameplay is fine so I don't know why I would need to campaign for it.

This wasn't necessarily directed at you. It's just that your post, within the context of this thread, combined with the claims that respecs kill replayability that many others have made got me thinking along those lines. My post there was not intended in any way to be an assault on your or on Torchlight so much as an observation about the "respecs kill replay" argument in and of itself. I apologize if I expressed myself poorly there.

Every time you say that the ability to respec removes the incentive to replay you're saying that the game isn't good enough to play again unless you're forced to do so.

The way the game is designed (currently, in Torchlight 1) is fundamental to what the game is. I don't mind it being tweaked, but saying that it's not a part of why you would start a new character and play again is incorrect.

I have to be honest. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

Part of the whole experience of an A-RPG is starting a new character and picking new stats. It's fun to start new things, to watch them develop and be different from what you had before.

And nothing I've said or argued in favor of is contrary to that.

The other thing is this (from D3):

Our design goal with Acts II, III and IV is to keep them challenging, but smooth the difficulty ramp out a bit. If a monk or barbarian is geared well enough that they can use a heavily offensive build and murder everything in Act I, they should be able to swap to a more defensive build and do okay in Act II. As they gear up they can begin adjusting back to becoming offensive in Act II, at which point they can jump into Act III with a focus on defense, and so on.

I don't want Torchlight to be like this. It's how Starcraft feels. It's paper-scissors-rock. It's the reason why you have to do x/y/z if your opponent does a/b/c in Starcraft. I want to make a build, play to it's strengths and weaknesses and ultimately rely on the balance imputed to the game by the developers to deal with the challenges that face me, for better or worse. But I don't want to be forced to change on a constant basis. I don't want to get into a situation where I have to change my character to deal with certain things, where basically the game dictates what I have to do because it's so heavily biased towards certain things in certain situations.

I still maintain that this is more a problem of poor skill design and balancing than it is a problem inherent to the option of respec.

Part of the reason why I love classic games like Baldur's Gate is because I feel like there's a creative solution to almost every problem, with every class and skill you choose. It's not so much the case with more modern games. Nowadays, the design philosophy is that players want streamlined answers to problems that come from directly providing the players the tools they need to overcome them. It feels like the game is holding your hand - I want to make the best of what I already have rather than being directed to use something that doesn't even appeal to my strategy. Or simply just approaching something a different way, or not at all. It would suck (for me) if my skills became less a part of the character I "am" and more about an aesthetic tool-box that I use to overcome every situation in a tedious, systematic way.

Once again, my suggestions for respec do not take any of that away from you. Affording me the option to reallocate skill points isn't the game holding my hand. It's the game allowing me the freedom to find what I most enjoy while still allowing you to experience the game in exactly the manner you prefer. That is, of course, unless your preference is dictating to me how I must enjoy the game (and I'm not suggesting that it is). This is the essence of my whole argument. With every player having the option to choose for themselves, nobody is left wanting except the elitist a-holes who think that they're enough of a "gaming authority", or what have you, that they believe they're entitled to tell me that I should play the game exactly as they dictate.

[gameqb11]

wow! what a bunch of babies. Why are some of you acting like the game is ruined?

1. There will be mods
2. Its not really THAT important. Many of you just seem to be arguing for arguments sake.

You still get to CHOOSE what skills you want to play with and you still get an early respec. Why all the crying??

[Daniel]

wow! what a bunch of babies. Why are some of you acting like the game is ruined?

1. There will be mods
2. Its not really THAT important. Many of you just seem to be arguing for arguments sake.

You still get to CHOOSE what skills you want to play with and you still get an early respec. Why all the crying??

Did you just come here from the Diablo III forums? Because that's what this reminds me of -- calling people names when they try to have a debate about something. It's an important game design question and there is nothing wrong with people discussing it in-depth and arguing passionately for their own point of view.

[Middlemoor]

That's just it, though. Allowing me to respec whenever I choose doesn't take anything away from you. With unlimited respecs the only person who can take that away from you is you. My choice has no impact on your game play.

Same arguement could be made that everyone gets given all the skills/stats at the start and then chooses which to use. There's no point to experience or levelling up in that case, other than as a time sink. With the current model, getting a stat point feels like an achievement bound to a choice. If there's no choice, then all you're aiming for is a universal unlocking of stats that's slowly trickling in on you.

Besides, it wil impact on my gameplay. I will no longer have fixed choices in skills. It will change things. There's no point saying I should just choose no to change anything, 'cos if you give me the option then that becomes part of the game. Currently it's in no major way a part of the game.

There's an argument to be made that the lack of respecs actually discourages attachment to your character. If you play through XX levels and decide you don't like the way you've built your character, what option do you have? Abandon the character and start over. Kind of the opposite of attachment, if you ask me.

Not really and it's inevitable anyway that restarting will happen for whatever reason. That's part of RPG gaming. I don't see why people are so worried about needing to have the perfect character to their exact specifications anyway. All the options aren't meant to be on the table right from the very beginning.

If a no respec system is put in place with the intent of promoting attachment to the character, and through the lack of respecs forces you to start from scratch if you make a mistake, don't like the build, or the skills get rebalanced and destroy your build, then the system has failed to accomplish it's ostensible goal.

Well, I can agree with being able to take back mistakes but I don't see how choosing your build, advancing many more levels after that and then deciding against it is a mistake. That's more to do qith boredom - and the limitations of videogames to satisfy our every need.

Every time you say that the ability to respec removes the incentive to replay you're saying that the game isn't good enough to play again unless you're forced to do so.

It just means I'm less likely to be excited about a new character, since basically all characters will simply be the one character.

I have to be honest. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

I was saying it's the kind of game where you're meant to expect to be trying it again some time in future, with a different strategy. Having all the cards on the table all at once isn't the A-RPG style.

Once again, my suggestions for respec do not take any of that away from you. Affording me the option to reallocate skill points isn't the game holding my hand. It's the game allowing me the freedom to find what I most enjoy while still allowing you to experience the game in exactly the manner you prefer. That is, of course, unless your preference is dictating to me how I must enjoy the game (and I'm not suggesting that it is).

I don't see how you're not dictating to us how to enjoy the game. We don't want to be able to respec our whole class at any point in the game. So, is that so wrong? We wouldn't be able to enjoy the game the same way because the game would fundamentall change. Strategies would change. The meaningfulness of choices would change. Leveling up would change. Items' value would change. Everything basically, would change. Everything will basically be possible for every character, so you'll always know exactly where you're going to stand in future on everything.

[gameqb11]

wow! what a bunch of babies. Why are some of you acting like the game is ruined?

1. There will be mods
2. Its not really THAT important. Many of you just seem to be arguing for arguments sake.

You still get to CHOOSE what skills you want to play with and you still get an early respec. Why all the crying??

Did you just come here from the Diablo III forums? Because that's what this reminds me of -- calling people names when they try to have a debate about something. It's an important game design question and there is nothing wrong with people discussing it in-depth and arguing passionately for their own point of view.

sorry, I didnt mean to start the name calling.

I was all for respec, but the fact that its in (even though limited) seems good enough to me. I just really dont get why some people are acting like the game is ruined because of it not having unlimited respec. (especially when one can EASILY be modded in as compared to other games).

I really dont see why this is such a hot topic. Even moreso the fact that there IS a respec option early on.

I see these wild overstated arguments of gimped builds and being forced to replay the game. All of that is untrue and are only being brought up for arguments sake. I really havent read any valid arguments in regards to the current compromise- just whining.

Even the creator is against respec, and with all of the OTHER great improvements being made to TL2, im sure i can trust his expert (arpg) opinion that free unlimited respec can hurt the weight of choices made during gameplay. Even still, Runic added a respec option anyway...so umm, whats the argument again?

[Twilit]

OMG I CANT RESPEC. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHY DID I SKIP MATH CLASS FOR 10 YEARS NOOOOOOOOOOOO HOW WILL I EVER LIVEEEEEEEEEE.

Serisouly, guys, if you can't take the VERY SMALL task of character development as far as ARPGs go, there's a problem. Kids can't deal with consequence these days at all. It's sad really.
I would hate to have to see you guys deal with real life decisions. You'll never get anywhere that way.

There's this new game called 'LIFE'. It's a persistent world where the choices you make have real consequences that carry on throughout to progress your character development and story. It's pretty innovative. It's FREE too! You just have to go outside. I haven't tried it yet....graphics are shit. That's a deal breaker for me.

Cheers

[Arlian]

The unfortunate news about this is that there is no compromise for this debate. Just as a light switch is an on or off situation, the respec debate is as such.

*But Arlian, they make dimmer-* SHADDUP!

I personally feel that this discussion has been wildly blown out of proportion. I argue that this is a very important discussion, not a side issue,but it has been thrown into the all flavors of flame war drama where name-calling, belittling, and refusal to acknowledge the opposing side are more the issue than the issue.

[turnipz]

Can we just get a 15 minute time that allows replacement of the last skill, similar to how the stats currently work? Then you can try it out and figure out whether it will break your build or not. The game is like 20 hours long, definitely not going to hurt to remake a character if you are finding it too difficult, despite normal attack being all you even need in this game.

[Drexlor]

In T1, the only mod I installed was the respec one, and the potion was 15000gp i think. I saw a similar idea suggested in a reply but don't think that you should restrict respecing to a certain level.

[johnnycage]

Well there you have it people, Max Schaefer's thoughts on respecs.

I don't have a hate or huge problem with respecing. It's just not my preference.

So we now know the devs will limit respecing, as they feel it takes away importance from decision making. For everyone that loves respecs, nobody is forcing you to play Torchlight 2. If you don't like Runic's vision and stance on respecs, then quite simply you don't have to play the game. Or, you can mod the game to suit your needs however you want.

Many of those in favor of respecs were speaking as if an unlimited respec system was confirmed from the game, when it's far from fact.

As for me personally, I want to play the game the way Runic envisioned it to be played, and I applaud Runic for limiting respecs.

Serisouly, guys, if you can't take the VERY SMALL task of character development as far as ARPGs go, there's a problem. Kids can't deal with consequence these days at all. It's sad really.
I would hate to have to see you guys deal with real life decisions. You'll never get anywhere that way.

There's this new game called 'LIFE'. It's a persistent world where the choices you make have real consequences that carry on throughout to progress your character development and story. It's pretty innovative. It's FREE too! You just have to go outside. I haven't tried it yet....graphics are shit. That's a deal breaker for me.

Cheers

It's harsh, but I would have to agree. I feel that most of the difference of opinion on respecs is a divide among younger and older generations. This is totally off-topic, but I do agree too many young people today can't deal with consequences, or taking responsibility for their mistakes. It is really quite sad to me. Some people will counter that life is too stressful, and they don't want games to be anything like life. Now me personally, I love life. Also, I believe lots of gamers out there, including myself, want games that are challenging. Not just games that are hard for the sake of being hard, but games that force you to face consequences depending on the choices you make, and games that force you to take responsibility and live with making the wrong choices and the consequences that come with that.

[gameqb11]

TL2 =/= life decisions and its a silly comparison.

[Reat]

It's harsh, but I would have to agree. I feel that most of the difference of opinion on respecs is a divide among younger and older generations. This is totally off-topic, but I do agree too many young people today can't deal with consequences, or taking responsibility for their mistakes. It is really quite sad to me. Some people will counter that life is too stressful, and they don't want games to be anything like life. Now me personally, I love life. Also, I believe lots of gamers out there, including myself, want games that are challenging. Not just games that are hard for the sake of being hard, but games that force you to face consequences depending on the choices you make, and games that force you to take responsibility and live with making the wrong choices and the consequences that come with that.

Might be a bit over-dramatic, but it's pretty true to a degree. What you really have to remember is that games before the turn of the Millennium were mostly for geeks and nerds, or at least dudes who wasted too much time at the arcades. Now a days, everyone and their mother (literally) plays video games. It's good for the industry and good for the geeks so we're no longer crazy basement dwellers (in the public's eyes, probably still true though lol), but it does make a segregation of what games are for the vets and which ones are for the casuals.

Rogue-likes, before Diablo, were 100% hardcore geek games. Diablo 1 and 2, as well as TL 1 and 2 stick to many of the old school mentalities rogue-likes have always had. I can't say the same about Diablo 3 though *shrugs*.

[ace1580]

It's harsh, but I would have to agree. I feel that most of the difference of opinion on respecs is a divide among younger and older generations. This is totally off-topic, but I do agree too many young people today can't deal with consequences, or taking responsibility for their mistakes. It is really quite sad to me. Some people will counter that life is too stressful, and they don't want games to be anything like life. Now me personally, I love life. Also, I believe lots of gamers out there, including myself, want games that are challenging. Not just games that are hard for the sake of being hard, but games that force you to face consequences depending on the choices you make, and games that force you to take responsibility and live with making the wrong choices and the consequences that come with that.

I agree with you that young people being unwilling to deal with consequences is becoming epidemic, but as you yourself point out, this is an argument reductio ad absurdum. I'm sorry, but my desire to not have lasting consequences in a game does not speak to my personality. I have enough lasting consequences to deal with in real life. In fact, I think my desire to see a way to respec the whole way through the game comes as a result of my life circumstances. I simply don't have the time i had 5 years ago to toss a character i spent 30 hours on to roll the same class again.

I'm ok with making the barrier to respec high, just don't give me a time limit.