What Level Do You Want Respec to Stop?

[Middlemoor]

I have never understood why people think there should be no respec. I find these people are just elitist retards with no respect to the "lesser beings" that just want to enjoy the game.
If you don't want there to be respec then don't use it! Or how about an option when you make your character it asks you if you want to play with respecs or not, so you get a one time choice of allowing respecs.

I don't want to be punished because I made the wrong choice 20 levels earlier. I am not some guy who wants to play by some spreadsheet min/maxing the best possible choice, but you almost seem forced that way with no respec because you don't want to screw up your character later on. If I see a talent tree with 5 different abilities, I want to try each one out to see how they are.. often times an ability that sounds amazing ends up being shitty, and other times abilities that you originally thought were "meh" end up being really good.
It's a fucking single player game (ok now it has coop which you probably will just be playing with your friends) not like it hurts you if I want to respec every 10 min (although of course there should be a cost to doing it)

You're calling us "elitist retards" but then saying stuff like, "if you don't want there to be respect, then just don't use it!"?

You're not being 'punished' and no-one is forcing you to view your skill choices as an all-or-nothing affair.

There are no "shitty" abilities and the point of the game is to progress a character, not to try everything on the first go or even to know everything right off the bat.

Someone obviously has never played an RPG before.

[harmar]

Um because if you don't want to use it you don;t have to. But if someone does want to use it, and it is not available they cant?
Of course there are going to be shitty abilities, there was in Torchlight 1 there will be in Torchlight 2. Or if not shitty, atleast abilities that don't fit my play style which I won't know until I try them.
How is me picking an abilty that after a level or 2 I figure that it doesn't fit my playstyle, but now can't change it not punishing me? I just wasted atleast 1 skill point that I can't get back unless I reroll.

[Stehn]

Um because if you don't want to use it you don;t have to. But if someone does want to use it, and it is not available they cant?
Of course there are going to be shitty abilities, there was in Torchlight 1 there will be in Torchlight 2. Or if not shitty, atleast abilities that don't fit my play style which I won't know until I try them.
How is me picking an abilty that after a level or 2 I figure that it doesn't fit my playstyle, but now can't change it not punishing me? I just wasted atleast 1 skill point that I can't get back unless I reroll.

Go play Diablo 3 and leave Torchlight 2 alone.

Heartfelft thanks.

[BlondeKnight]

There are no "shitty" abilities and the point of the game is to progress a character, not to try everything on the first go or even to know everything right off the bat.

Someone obviously has never played an RPG before.

Oh please, every RPG has a few worthless abilities that hurt character builds and survivability.

[Ten]

While having no strong feelings either way on this matter, I am curious as to why some people are totally against any kind of respec system.

People that support a respec option have been very easily able to explain why they want it, but the anti-respec side of the argument havn't really been able to explain themselves at all.

Personally I could take it or leave it, I don't really mind.

[Middlemoor]

Um because if you don't want to use it you don;t have to. But if someone does want to use it, and it is not available they cant?
Of course there are going to be shitty abilities, there was in Torchlight 1 there will be in Torchlight 2. Or if not shitty, atleast abilities that don't fit my play style which I won't know until I try them.
How is me picking an abilty that after a level or 2 I figure that it doesn't fit my playstyle, but now can't change it not punishing me? I just wasted atleast 1 skill point that I can't get back unless I reroll.

What you talking about? Unlimited respec would be a change to the fundamental design of character progression, not an optional perk that players would choose to use or not use. It's not a personal preference that's either available or unavailable, it's a new approach to the entire design of the game.

There are no shitty abilities in TL1 and if you find one that doesn't fit your play style, then stop making your "play style" an all-or-nothing affair. The majority of RPGs operate on a progressive level, giving you choices to make as you gain in level. It's not a matter of ultimately knowing what kind of skills you'll end up with - that is like asking for the game to play it'self for you before you've put in any time to play it.

Besides, all the skills have descriptions for what they do. If you just read the description, you can figure out if it's what you want from your "play-style". There are no mysteries, at least not in TL1.

It's not punishing you because no-one is forcing you to have an all-or-nothing attitude towards your approach to this game. There's only a "waste" of a point if you're totally unwilling to compromise with the choices you've made. Trying a completely different strategy is supposed to require a new character - this is to ensure the extended replay-ability of the game and to retain a sense of structure to the RPG.

Besides, aren't you happy that they've already confirmed a limited respec in Torchlight 2? Is that not enough for you to stop getting upset?

[Middlemoor]

There are no "shitty" abilities and the point of the game is to progress a character, not to try everything on the first go or even to know everything right off the bat.

Someone obviously has never played an RPG before.

Oh please, every RPG has a few worthless abilities that hurt character builds and survivability.

It all depends on your perspective and whether or not you've got an all-or-nothing mentality. I don't see how any of the skills in Torchlight are completely worthless.

[Middlemoor]

While having no strong feelings either way on this matter, I am curious as to why some people are totally against any kind of respec system.

People that support a respec option have been very easily able to explain why they want it, but the anti-respec side of the argument havn't really been able to explain themselves at all.

Personally I could take it or leave it, I don't really mind.

Just because you say that people haven't explained themselves, doesn't make it so. The vast majority of posters here know that a limited respec option will exist in Torchlight 2. If anyone is making an argument against respeccing, it's against unlimited respeccing. A lot of people are on here acting like their personal preferences should dictate what the game is like - those people should be making mods instead of wasting time arguing about something that's already confirmed to be implemented in a limited way in TL2.

[Ten]

... A lot of people are on here acting like their personal preferences should dictate what the game is like...

It might serve you well to consider what side of that line you fall on, going by your input to this thread.

Your arguments come across in such a way that they suggest that other people's opinions are wrong because your opinions are actually a fact, and that their opinions don't matter anyway as the game is already exactly how you would like it to be, though to contradict yourself it seems you would rather have no respec capacity at all...

[Middlemoor]

... A lot of people are on here acting like their personal preferences should dictate what the game is like...

It might serve you well to consider what side of that line you fall on, going by your input to this thread.

Your arguments come across in such a way that they suggest that other people's opinions are wrong because your opinions are actually a fact, and that their opinions don't matter anyway as the game is already exactly how you would like it to be, though to contradict yourself it seems you would rather have no respec capacity at all...

The reality I live in is the one where Torchlight is a progressive, linear RPG that's got a sequel which is confirmed to have implemented a limited respec. Which reality do you live in? If you can show me a world where Torchlight isn't that type of game, then I'll gladly admit that my opinions aren't facts and that unlimited respec wouldn't change the default design principle of skill system. It's not a contradictory position to take the side of the game as it's been unveiled and in it's position in this genre.

Also I haven't said I would rather have no respect capacity at all. I have spoken out against unlimited respec (for the sake of arguement, as it's already confirmed to be implemented in a limited form) exclusively. I am not opposed to a compromise.

[Ten]

The reality I live in is the one where Torchlight is a progressive, linear RPG that's got a sequel which is confirmed to have implemented a limited respec. Which reality do you live in? If you can show me a world where Torchlight isn't that type of game, then I'll gladly admit that my opinions aren't facts and that unlimited respec wouldn't change the default design principle of skill system. It's not a contradictory position to take the side of the game as it's been unveiled and in it's position in this genre.

Also I haven't said I would rather have no respect capacity at all. I have spoken out against unlimited respec (for the sake of arguement, as it's already confirmed to be implemented in a limited form) exclusively. I am not opposed to a compromise.

Since you ask, I live in the reality where I'll take the game as it's handed to me. I also live in a reality where this is a discussion forum, and people have thier own views.

The stance of "You can't change the game, and I'm happy with it anyway, so none of your opinions are valid or matter", is never going to be a stance I respect due to its obduracy alone.

For what it's worth I'd be opposed to unlimited, effectively cost-free respecs too. And strangely I wouldn't be opposed to no respecs whatsoever. But I'm not offended by people who would rather have more freedom to respec than has been offered, and I actively encourage people in all aspects of life to speak up about things they don't agree with, as if enough people don't agree, then they can affect a change.

[Twilit]

Well. I think re-spec up to LvL10-15 is good. Out of 100 levels you might screw up like 5 or 6 Skill/Spell points? That's virtually nothing in the long run. Literally. That's 5% of your Sill/Spell build. Nothing major at all.

You can also bet your bottom dollar that youtube vids with guys power levelling will pop up SAME DAY as launch. If you really wanna see a skill you're thinking about getting being used in action, you'll probably be able to find a video of it. The internet has come a long way since early 2000's, and if you utilize it, with community discussions and the forums, you'll have a wikid idea of what you're building.

Also you can't gimp your toon that easily with the Attribute System they have in place now. They took D2's system and refined it to a silvery lustre.

[Middlemoor]

Since you ask, I live in the reality where I'll take the game as it's handed to me. I also live in a reality where this is a discussion forum, and people have thier own views.

Since that goes both ways, I don't really see how it's relevant.

The stance of "You can't change the game, and I'm happy with it anyway, so none of your opinions are valid or matter", is never going to be a stance I respect due to its obduracy alone.

No-one ever said you can't change the game. Runic has implemented limited respec in TL2. However, people have tried to argue that anything short of unlimited respec deprives them of something they have a justified claim to demand. What if I want all the skills to be unlocked from the beginning and leveling up to only affect my stats? No-one can justify radical deviations from the game's existing design principles based solely on their own personal whims.

But I'm not offended by people who would rather have more freedom to respec than has been offered, and I actively encourage people in all aspects of life to speak up about things they don't agree with, as if enough people don't agree, then they can affect a change.

You said people have their own views. So let me have mine.

[Reat]

Well. I think re-spec up to LvL10-15 is good. Out of 100 levels you might screw up like 5 or 6 Skill/Spell points? That's virtually nothing in the long run. Literally. That's 5% of your Sill/Spell build. Nothing major at all.

You can also bet your bottom dollar that youtube vids with guys power levelling will pop up SAME DAY as launch. If you really wanna see a skill you're thinking about getting being used in action, you'll probably be able to find a video of it. The internet has come a long way since early 2000's, and if you utilize it, with community discussions and the forums, you'll have a wikid idea of what you're building.

Also you can't gimp your toon that easily with the Attribute System they have in place now. They took D2's system and refined it to a silvery lustre.

Actually, since there's fame as well, it's more like 170+ skill points, so around 2-3% skill points if you mess up 5 or 6.

[Twilit]

^^^, whoa. Thanks for reminding me. This makes it even less relevant. Nothing bad will come from picking a couple of skills your not sure about. I'm so seriously.

[Ten]

You said people have their own views. So let me have mine.

I will. I just believe it's short-sighted.

What if I want all the skills to be unlocked from the beginning and leveling up to only affect my stats? No-one can justify radical deviations from the game's existing design principles based solely on their own personal whims.

I see you're familiar with the straw man fallacy. Your statement is equivalent to me saying "They are adding limited respecs, they are adding multiplayer, they are increasing pet utility, and they are adding outdoor environments instead of just lower and lower dungeon levels. Therefore, they can and should include as many game changing additions as is possible." I know that's not a valid argument, and neither is yours.

[Artsyfact]

Actually, since there's fame as well, it's more like 170+ skill points, so around 2-3% skill points if you mess up 5 or 6.

Min-maxers won't want to mess ANY points though. In their case, I'd say a mod/char editor should do the trick. Imperfect builds can make the game a bit more challenging anyway, I think nothing is wrong with that, and it can even be fun.

[Twilit]

Actually, since there's fame as well, it's more like 170+ skill points, so around 2-3% skill points if you mess up 5 or 6.

Min-maxers won't want to mess ANY points though. In their case, I'd say a mod/char editor should do the trick. Imperfect builds can make the game a bit more challenging anyway, I think nothing is wrong with that, and it can even be fun.

Ditto.
I love making gimped builds, just cause it's more of a challenge. My Embermage was awesome. Neo The Magic Swordsman (Dual-Wielding, Melee Caster).
I do get that mini-maxers want to get everything they possibly can out of their build. I'd even say I was part of that demographic. That's how it was in d2 days anyway. But the 'new' system is way more hospitable. EVERY attribute helps. There's no useless attributes, which means the 'right' build is more subjective than fact this time around.

[Middlemoor]

I will. I just believe it's short-sighted.

Short sighted? Torchlight 2 has limited respec. I've been advocating limited respec. So you're basically saying Runic Games are short sighted developers.

I see you're familiar with the straw man fallacy. Your statement is equivalent to me saying "They are adding limited respecs, they are adding multiplayer, they are increasing pet utility, and they are adding outdoor environments instead of just lower and lower dungeon levels. Therefore, they can and should include as many game changing additions as is possible." I know that's not a valid argument, and neither is yours.

I haven't made an argument like that at all, or used any fallacies. If I want to argue for a fundamental change to the game's skill system, I can argue for any change. You're not going to justify your previous position that I made contradictory statements by supporting the current design of the game, by saying that I'm denying others the right to change it. Changing the game's fundamentals and advocating keeping the same fundamentals are not the same thing.

Besides, my argument was an analogy. You have missed the point. However if it's not a valid argument, then where do you draw the line as to what is? I personally think the line should be drawn at changing things that are fundamental to the current state of the game.

[Arlian]

Oh Arlian, your sure know how to fight around the argument.

Examples? This thread is now 10 pages long with MULTIPLE different posters. I can only focus SO much, and I've directly countered each point I've provided. How am I fighting around the argument? And which one? Care to provide an example before senseless libel?

I think I have an idea for a respec that does not kill the weight of the players choice.

You've seen both sides of the argument where I provided rationale why I feel that respeccing does not kill the weight of choice. Your choices are still important and plotting where to place each point is still very much necessary. Those who wish for respec do so because they often lack the time it takes to replay a character. And let's face it, a high level respec is TEDIOUS. This means that respeccers like myself will use respec SPARINGLY and with caution just simply because the margin of error for replacing 50+ points at once is FAR greater than the margin of error for selecting a single skill or a handful of skills. Where you place a point has enormous gravity.

Skills that are Rarely Used based on the percentage of used skills, maybe in the 1%, after a few levels become "redeemable." The more points in a skill, the longer the wait for the skill to "free up." The time limit may be based on the amount of experience gained from the use of the skill. Also, the latest point will only be returned, you cannot save up and completely wipe a skill at once.

This is actually a pretty nifty idea.

I am still against respec in its' totality

Granted and allowed.

but it panders those who (Cannot control the urge to missclick constantly, perfectionists/elitists, those who do not comprehend the flavor text/skill text, and those who think freedom in a game is better than the challenges presented by it, and those who do before thinking.)

There's more of a demographic than that. As you may imagine, this is a very split discussion with a massive demographic of players on each side. For example, let's make a list of people that you would find in each camp:

No-Respec
-------------
Cannot control the urge to missclick constantly
perfectionists/elitists
those who do not comprehend the flavor text/skill text
those who think freedom in a game is better than the challenges presented by it
those who do before thinking

Pro-Respec
-------------
Cannot control the urge to missclick constantly
perfectionists/elitists
those who do not comprehend the flavor text/skill text
those who think freedom in a game is better than the challenges presented by it
those who do before thinking

Amazing! It seems you find the discussed demographic in BOTH audiences which means that this (respeccing) is an independent issue which must be discussed without attributing it to some silly pigeon-holing.

The issue is pro/anti respec, not "how respeccers are impetuous perfectionist elitists that misclick constantly, have no respect for lore, have no concept of challenge."