A very important kickstarter

[Zidders]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566 ... ideo-games

" This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders. "

"With your help, I’ll produce a 5-video series (now expanded to 12 videos) entitled Tropes vs Women in Video Games, exploring female character stereotypes throughout the history of the gaming industry. This ambitious project will primarily focus on these reoccurring tropes: "

"Help me create another successful video series that will contribute to and help amplify the existing conversations happening about female characters in games and maybe even get the attention of the gaming industry to start creating more interesting, engaging and complex female characters, that avoid the standard boring cliches."

[KnuckleHead]

Why is it a problem? It's fantasy. I don't even like the female tropes (especially over sexy heroines in iron bikinis) but if that's what some people enjoy so what?

I don't think this kickstarter is important in the least, I support her right to make these videos and whatever, but I think it's misguided and making something that's just about fun into something way more serious than it is.

[DarkTails]

I don't even like the female tropes (especially over sexy heroines in iron bikinis)

How dare you.

*slap with muckfish*

[mibuwolf]

I don't see what the video is to accomplish. Media portrays things to appease the majority. Majority being male. Problem?

[KnuckleHead]

I don't even like the female tropes (especially over sexy heroines in iron bikinis)

How dare you.

*slap with muckfish*

I dunno, just think it looks silly. Luckily most of that nonsense exists in stuff like JRPG's or other types of games/genres I'm not interested in. However, if it floats yours or anyone else boat more power to you. There's nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with enjoying any of the tropes in video games...big burly male warriors or flashy hair JRPG girly men and all.

[Zidders]

These responses are exactly why it's important. Gender inequality is incredibly prevalent in gaming culture.


"Also, the percentage of women now playing online has risen to 42%, up several percent since 2004. The same study shows that 46% of game purchasers are female (Entertainment Software Association)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_ ... emographic

Mibu, the attitude that 'the majority of gamers is male' stopped being a truism years ago. Besides, since when should the industry cater to any specific demographic? We should be inclusive, not exclusive. The problem isn't that most people want to buy games aimed at men, it's that games aren't inclusive enough. There are few games that appeal to both women AND men. How many shooters are there out there that appeal to women as well as men? Few. Most are testosterone-laced sausage fests.

The industry is rife with games that objectify women. Why? Because the game industry is largely a male-dominated industry. Few women (or people of differing genders who don't fit into the gender binary. There are even less opportunities for transgendered or genderqueer people. If people aren't given a wider variety of choices to choose from, of course they're going to go with what's available.

Basically, if you don't understand that there's a huge problem with equality in our society-even now-you might just be part of the problem.

And fyi, the objectification of males is just as much of a problem, it's just not as bad of a problem. The way women are objectified in society and in games re-enforces how the rest of society (for the most part) already views women. There are many men who still see them as second class citizens. It's worse in non-first world countries. Sure, changing gamer attitudes might not have a huge trickle down effect but every little bit of change helps.

[mibuwolf]

Mibu, the attitude that 'the majority of gamers is male' stopped being a truism years ago. Besides, since when should the industry cater to any specific demographic? We should be inclusive, not exclusive. The problem isn't that most people want to buy games aimed at men, it's that games aren't inclusive enough. There are few games that appeal to both women AND men. How many shooters are there out there that appeal to women as well as men? Few. Most are testosterone-laced sausage fests.

The industry is rife with games that objectify women. Why? Because the game industry is largely a male-dominated industry. Few women (or people of differing genders who don't fit into the gender binary. There are even less opportunities for transgendered or genderqueer people. If people aren't given a wider variety of choices to choose from, of course they're going to go with what's available.

Basically, if you don't understand that there's a huge problem with equality in our society-even now-you might just be part of the problem.

I would agree with you if this video was about adding women that aren't stereotypes, but it sounds to me as if the user wants to remove the stereotypes and that is not possible. To target the male audience (and rightfully so) the developers include women that men would find attractive. Adding women that are not-so-attractive would appease a MUCH smaller crowd and could stand to have those types of women in video games, however, sexy wins hands down.

The problem starts with other media, not video games. Go ahead and try to remove sexy from movies and other media, but that will not happen, and obviously will not happen in video games. Video games are here for our amusement and fantasy (imagination).

Call me wrong if you wish, but I'm more or less right. Morally I find this issue 50/50. It isn't wrong, but it isn't right either.

There are few games that appeal to both women AND men. How many shooters are there out there that appeal to women as well as men? Few. Most are testosterone-laced sausage fests.

Because game developers are smart and know that the extra effort would go to waste? Not saying you aren't right, but it will continue regardless. I honestly don't care what happens, at least enough to want to make a change. It doesn't bother me. There are some shooters that have women in them (in fact quite a lot), just not Call of Duty and Battlefield and Medal of Honor specifically. I could mention quite a few that do however.

Zidders, that study is inconclusive evidence. Don't even quote me that BS. There are better articles than that.

Those 2 articles PROVE the audience is majority male, and still is today. It may be growing, but things are basically better left to tend to majority male, than include women in gaming (somehow). To be honest, the article just says that games don't appease women because of violence and what not. THAT'S WHAT MEN WANT!

[Killious]

I agree with Knucklehead here, if you enjoy it then don't let anyone tell you that you are 'wrong' for it or make you feel bad about it. There are many things that not everyone is going to agree on, and many different types of people out there. Just because someone is telling you that you shouldn't enjoy something does NOT by any means mean that you should just go 'oh no! Someone out there disagrees with what I like and what I enjoy, welp guess I best mosey on over to their way of thinking'. That being said, I don't care one way or another about the troupes in video games. No matter the topic, I have a brain and I can use it to distinguish fantasy from reality.

[KnuckleHead]

I think people like Zidders and the kickstarter lady are the problem, not people enjoying video games that appeal to their fantasies for fun and entertainment.

Who the hell are you to tell anyone else what they can and should enjoy? A video game should appeal to whoever the developers want them to appeal to, not to who you Nazi's think they should appeal to. Video games are not social programs, they are entertainment designed to be fun and entertain their audience.

No matter the topic, I have a brain and I can use it to distinguish fantasy from reality.

That's not what all these "social issue Nazis" what you to believe...according to their reality we are all too dumb to distinguish this stuff for ourselves.

BTW, if you are so concerned about the "damage" being done by these tropes, start with Runic:



Out of all the recent ARPG's the games they make are some of the worst in terms of these kinds of tropes. Is Runic "part of the problem" too and are they harming people by reinforcing these stereotypes?

[Zidders]

To target the male audience (and rightfully so)

http://mashable.com/2011/11/28/women-online-gaming-sex/
Again, the only reason more women aren't into games is because they're not offered as many choices. If there were more choices available, you'd see a ton of women into games. If gamer culture were more inclusive (it's not, no matter how much it pats itself on the back for supposedly being. Gamer culture is incredibly hostile towards females, as well as anyone who is LGBT. Trust me, I know) you'd probably end up seeing more women into gaming than men.

The fact of the matter is that the female gamers are generally more cooperative than male gamers, handle stress better, are are better learners. They're actually better suited to be gamers than males are.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNe ... 9tTwbVYv4Y

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/idit-hare ... 44526.html

"The most formidable career opportunity in this burgeoning field is defined by this fact: Less than 10 percent of the gaming workforce is female, while 42 percent of all game players are female. Perhaps even more to the point, the fastest growing market for video games today is women over the age of 18. "

"according to the Entertainment Software Association, by far the greatest percentage of game-players -- 82 percent -- are over the age of 18, and 29 percent of the total are over the age of 50. (No wonder nursing homes and senior centers around the country are incorporating video games into their activities.) So the idea that all gamers are kids is just plain outdated.

Moreover, boys 17 and younger account for only 13 percent of gamers -- versus adult women at 37 percent. So the notion that video games are a boys-only (or even boys-mostly) entertainment is simply false. The corollary to the "boys-only myth" is that boys won't play "girl-like" games. That's another assumption that doesn't stand up to reality. When Nickelodeon was getting ready to premiere The Legend of Korra series with a female lead character, executives worried that boys simply wouldn't watch. Test screenings proved them wrong; boy viewers declared Korra "awesome."

As to girls' "discomfort with math and science," the data long ago showed that to be a cultural side effect -- nothing inherent about it. In fact, girls typically outperform boys in both disciplines until adolescence, when cultural gender stereotypes take over (e.g., Gender Differences in Human Cognition, by John T. E. Richardson, Paula J. Caplan, Mary Crawford, Janet Shibley Hyde, Oxford University Press, 1997). Fortunately, this has been changing for some time, thanks to educator encouragement of math and science for girls in both public and private schools -- and thanks also to the presence of female role models and female game stars, like Korra.

The conclusion at a recent panel on sexism in the video game industry, orchestrated by Mare Sheppard of Metanet, was that this "push to educate girls in mathematics and science early," often, and persistently is the key to dispelling the old stereotypes and leveling the gender disparity in gaming careers.

The market is there: More women than men play video games; more grown-ups than young people play video games. If that is the market of the future, women belong on the development side of the business as well as on the consumer side. A few savvy developers know that. Electronic Arts, for one, which recently released two games aimed specifically at the female market, is also recruiting women -- most recently in a video highlighting some of its current women superstar employees.

It all adds up: This soaring global industry offers an exceptional career opportunity tomorrow to those girls who get the support they need in gaining mathematical and scientific skills, and attaining computer science capacities today."

[KnuckleHead]

"The fact of the matter is that the female gamers are generally more cooperative than male gamers, handle stress better, are are better learners. They're actually better suited to be gamers than males are."

What an absolutely sexist statement.

On more serious note, if you actually look into the data the games women play are different than the games males play (in regards to the huge more recent boon in female gamers).

[Zidders]

Actually, i've already made a thread awhile back pointing this stuff out to Runic. JBeck just loves whenever I bring THAT subject up, trust me lol as far as 'Nazi'..your argument becomes invalid the minute you use a term associated with a genocidal totalitarian government to be dismissive towards someone else. You're not even using the word in any kind of proper context. Guess what? Objectifying and demeaning people is wrong. It's not acceptable. At all.

And it's not a sexist statement if it's a fact
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-10-things-w ... html?cat=7
(article gives sources)

[mibuwolf]

Zidders, stop quoting those statistics man. 2000 gamers in a survey isn't what I call a huge amount. 14000 people in your other article. PLEASE!!!!! PLEASE PLEASE FIND A BETTER STATISTIC. Can we also drop this controversial issue? The kickstarter has been funded enough anyway to do the skit. Nothing will change. If anything it takes time for these things to change. Not too long ago having racial minorities weren't in media at all, and gay rights was nonexistent. Give it time. Developers won't change they way games are made until society in general somehow have a general agreement of how women and men should be portrayed in video games. For now it's what men buy goes. It could easily change to women if they really were the primary market.

Here's a thought:

Malls control the market for women shoppers. Sexist maybe? Men don't shop at malls, and there's a reason why I don't. It's fucking always girl shit. I find maybe 2-3 stores I actually like at all. In fact, I think kids are a better percentage than men in mall shopping centers.

[KnuckleHead]

Most of those are not facts, they are results of studies that show indication in certain circumstances, but the way they are used in the article are way outside what was indicated in the studies (like most ways the news sensationalizes scientific studies). Intersting though, how you (and people like you) love to try and invalidate anything showing males are better at something by just saying it's social/societal related, but anything indicating women are better at something is absolute fact. Those same factors don't apply to men? I thought we were all equal? Or is it just women are only allowed to be better than men?

Also, my use of Nazi wasn't to say you were genocidal or anything like that, it's an exaggeration of course but to show a point...you (and that lady) aren't interested in more options as you suggested above. If that was the intent I would be supportive of it. Hell, better yet, if her campaign was to make a video game with a female heroine portrayed as a strong/smart women I would be 100% behind it. That's not what's going on here though, you don't want options, you want to take away options from other people.

Here's some statistics for you:

http://www.theothergamer.com/news/women ... tatistics/

80% of women gamers play the WII...they aren't playing the same kinds of games typically. If you look at the huge boon of female gamers (especially the middle aged crowd), they are in large playing social games. Yes there's more female gamers, but it's not that they don['t have options it's that they have already chosen the games they like.

[mibuwolf]

Most of those are not facts, they are results of studies that show indication in certain circumstances, but the way they are used in the article are way outside what was indicated in the studies (like most ways the news sensationalizes scientific studies). Intersting though, how you (and people like you) love to try and invalidate anything showing males are better at something by just saying it's social/societal related, but anything indicating women are better at something is absolute fact. Those same factors don't apply to men? I thought we were all equal? Or is it just women are only allowed to be better than men?

Also, my use of Nazi wasn't to say you were genocidal or anything like that, it's an exaggeration of course but to show a point...you (and that lady) aren't interested in more options as you suggested above. If that was the intent I would be supportive of it. Hell, better yet, if her campaign was to make a video game with a female heroine portrayed as a strong/smart women I would be 100% behind it. That's not what's going on here though, you don't want options, you want to take away options from other people.

That's what I got out of it as well.

[DarkTails]

I say everyone should be allowed to jerk off to whatever stereotypical thing they want.

If ladies want to make games that appeal to other ladies because the boys don't want to then good. I'm just not sure how much the gameplay or aesthetics would change. People don't want to pay $60 for a game with normal looking people in normal clothes doing normal things. (yeah yeah, Sims is an exception, feh lol) Generally they want to see sexy or larger than life characters blowing stuff up, or at least doing interesting things like solving mysteries or preventing a demon armageddon.

As for not that many chicks working in the video game business, maybe not that many chicks WANT to work there. Maybe they're too busy being doctors and pilots and stunt drivers and investigative journalists and etc.

[Zidders]

Does this kickstarter really threaten your masculinity that much?

Don't like it, don't kick in. Simple as that. Thanks for pointing out exactly why shit like this is important, tho. I appreciate it.

[KnuckleHead]

Does this kickstarter really threaten your masculinity that much?

Don't like it, don't kick in. Simple as that. Thanks for pointing out exactly why shit like this is important, tho. I appreciate it.

LOL!

I knew it, when reason fails switch to pretending our "masculinity" in being threatened. Again, another sexists remark. If we disagree with this kind of crap it's only because we are just weak threatened males. It's pretty plain to see these folks true character after a while.

My stance is simple, I have no problems with her (or you) wanting a game with a female portrayed as strong and smart. Hell, if it was a campagin to make a game like that I would be 100% behind them. That's not what's going on here of course.

[mibuwolf]

Does this kickstarter really threaten your masculinity that much?

Don't like it, don't kick in. Simple as that. Thanks for pointing out exactly why shit like this is important, tho. I appreciate it.

It doesn't. You sure you read through my posts? I'm not trying to pick any side, but I for sure don't think that the kickstarter is helping anything really. You invited this discussion. Can't say you didn't expect this.

Nobody pointed out anything except that removing the stereotype isn't going to happen. Done and done.

[GigaDager]

...Well, I saw Bayonetta and thought, "NOPE. NOT SUPPORTING."

EDIT:

Does this kickstarter really threaten your masculinity that much?

Don't like it, don't kick in. Simple as that. Thanks for pointing out exactly why shit like this is important, tho. I appreciate it.

...My God, we've stooped down to that level, eh?