TL2 and Piracy

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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Arkham » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:18 pm

Tejasrex wrote:Lets be honest someone steals a game, plays the game, likes the game, can keep playing the game, but because they like the game they are going to buy it? Doesn't make sense because they have the game already.

I disagree. I had a pirated copy of Halo 1, and I liked the game so much I bought a legal copy.
Maybe the people you know provide lame, self-serving excuses for not buying the pirated games that they find out they like, but that hardly extends to everyone who has ever pirated software.
Last edited by Arkham on Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby DarkTails » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:18 pm

There's some sort of cerebral disconnect here where people think that digital products are inherently worth nothing. It's not true.

But the people who go out of their way to steal games don't associate games with the hard work put into them.


What does that have to do with anything? What about people who steal cars or clothes or pencils, do they acknowledge that it takes hard work to make those products more than people who download free copies of games? ^^
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby gold163 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:31 pm

DarkTails wrote:What does that have to do with anything? What about people who steal cars or clothes or pencils, do they acknowledge that it takes hard work to make those products more than people who download free copies of games? ^^


Well when your product isn't tangible like cars or clothes or pencils, when it doesn't have physical worth and is more of an idea than an object you can touch, I think people might subconsciously forget that games were ever the result of hard work.

I mean, pencils are generally worth less than games, right? People steal pencils all the time because they are somewhat determined to be worthless. But you would never steal a crate full of pencils would you? It's too much work and heavy lifting, and you'd look foolish trying to walk out of Staples with a bunch of pencils you didn't pay for. It's obvious theft.

A lot of people see games, and the relative ease with which they can be stolen digitally, and the connotations of "theft" and responsibility are pushed away simply because it's so easy to get away with, I think. People don't think about hard work when they steal games, which is the point -- they don't have to. And you may not think about hard work when you steal pencils but because they're physical objects they have actual tangible and practical value. But the solution isn't to make games harder to steal, because there is always someone out there who will make it easy again.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Seer » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:44 pm

Well, TL2 has fantastic value given the price range, so it is definetely one of those games that are very much worth their price, not including the various other boons.

As far as a cold hard incentive to actually buy the game, there is, of course, the hassle free and official patch support and more importantly access to the Runic account system (and by extent to multiplayer), which cannot be done without a legitimate TL2. And while there are other ways to play multiplayer, lets admit that they're pretty much a bad joke.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby BlackVulcan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:09 am

If they make a really great game, I think some people might end up buying it. That's how I ended up buying TL1.

I used to pirate games, though after playing torchlight, enjoying it, I wanted to find out more by reading about Runic. I found out how they were a small company and I realized I was being a real bastard for not buying their game, so after that I bought the game straightaway.

I buy more original games now, and I rarely pirate anymore. I still do however, usually for games I don't intend to buy straightaway. I pirated DAO, then bought it, DA2 then uninstalled it, cursed the developer and didn't buy it, ME3 and didn't buy it(never even going to BOTHER with Bioware anymore). Those are just a few though, since I have over 60 PC games atm, a fair number of them from steam. But soon as TL2 preorder came out, me and my best friend bought 4, for us and our brothers. Afterwards, I bought another 4 just to give to my friends(who pirate everything) so hopefully they might also learn the error of their ways.

I come from a different country, thankfully not China, but also from Asia, and piracy here is pretty much second nature. I only have a few friends that really buy originals, and my parents raised me thinking piracy is ok. Now because of TL1, and The Witcher(among a few games), I learned not to do that anymore. I am buying BL2 and TL2 soon as they're out, and I might buy sleeping dogs when that's out. And I hope I don't screw over companies like I used to.

On a sidenote, I didn't buy D3 or pirate it(even though a server emulator is up), mainly because of the beta. I was able to playtest it before it's release, so I already knew whether I wanted to play it or not. Beta was good til Blizzard stopped listening to those in the forums and routinely did the exact opposite to our suggestions, I was fairly active in the forums up until that time. Then I uninstalled the beta and accepted that it would be a shit game. I never looked back...

Oh, but I did pirate the TL2 beta, sorry :( I just really wanted to know how it was going. But I thoroughly enjoyed that, and all of my gripes seem to have been corrected so I'm really happy. :D

THANK YOU RUNIC, YOU, CDP RED, GEARBOX AND BETHESDA ARE MY FAVORITE DEVS IN THE WORLD! And I'm happy to buy all of your games, even if you charged me $80.
I'm just sad you don't have a Collector's Edition, and even sadder that they don't sell Collector's Editions here... (wanted BL2, Skyrim, Witcher 2 CEs but none of them are for sale here...)
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby UberWaffe » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:33 am

Runic is just too darn awesome to pirate from. :mrgreen:
I actually want them to stick around, since I don't feel like they're just trying to milk me.
Of which the opposite is still not an excuse for piracy.
But for instance, StarCraft 2's EULA that essentially states "All-ur-custom-maps-belong-2-us" pretty much put me off from any sort of effort in modding it.

I'll be grabbing TL2 the moment I can find a boxed version. :D
(Probably would have gotten a digital download if the third world's internet costs weren't so high. :| )
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby blackout23 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:11 am

I wish I had pirated Diablo 3 in hindsight. Just not worth the money I paid for.
If I could I would get a refund and buy another copy of TL2 for a friend of mine.
At least the money would go to the right people this way.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby BlackVulcan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:15 am

Runic really is too awesome to pirate from :D

I wanna but even more copies, but I just bought myself a new pair of headphones(AKG K518s) and I'm broke right now... (living off a scholarship allowance so I don't really have much spending money ><)

and Starcraft 2's EULA really is annoying(but even their custom map system, up until the SC2 Arcade, was so bad most map devs will never even get their maps played), I used to make plenty of mods in Warcraft 3, and it's because of triggers and JASS that got me into programming... I haven't even touched SC2's editor, which is sad...
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby UberWaffe » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:28 am

BlackVulcan wrote:...I wanna but even more copies...

True. True.

I'm seriously considering buying 10 or so copies of TL2, and distributing it to friends and whatnot.
Support Runic and grow the fanbase. ;)
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Najt » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:03 am

i like to compare games to what i normally spent my money on. So TL2 has to give the same fun i would have with 3meals at McDonalds or 1 movie at a cinema or 1 Blu-ray Disc, 1/3 fun of a Blizzard game, and many many more. So when im willing to spent my money on those things, why not BUY TL2. TL2 beta gave me more fun than any of the above mentioned so it cant be a bad investion.

So compare TL2 to the things which you would buy for 20 bucks and compare the fun you have with these things with TL2. My guess TL2 > all ;)
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby blackout23 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 am

UberWaffe wrote:
BlackVulcan wrote:...I wanna but even more copies...

True. True.

I'm seriously considering buying 10 or so copies of TL2, and distributing it to friends and whatnot.
Support Runic and grow the fanbase. ;)


I'm selling all my inferno gear in D3 Real Money Action House to do that. :D
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Seer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:30 am

blackout23 wrote:
UberWaffe wrote:
BlackVulcan wrote:...I wanna but even more copies...

True. True.

I'm seriously considering buying 10 or so copies of TL2, and distributing it to friends and whatnot.
Support Runic and grow the fanbase. ;)


I'm selling all my inferno gear in D3 Real Money Action House to do that. :D


Wow, that's very inventive, I guess it's the ultimate 'revenge' :lol:
And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby gameqb11 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:50 am

Maybe a key activated extra, like an art book or maybe a cool alternative online model (nothing essential or tied to the gameplay experience), that's only accessible online could help give incentive to buy the game if you really enjoyed the pirated copy. An online accessible "Thank you for purchasing" area/site with cool(non-essential) extras. It could have as much cool extra art, sketches, pictures that you guys could toss on there.

Just giving a good, but non-essential, incentive to owning a legitimate account will help stem piracy. Online play, so far, is the biggest one.
Yay, TL2!!!
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Chthon » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:18 am

enkrypter wrote:TL2 will likely suffer from piracy as most software does... You can't stop it.


There's a theory of software DRM that the goal shouldn't be to stop piracy (which is impossible, like you say) but rather to slow it down a bit. If your DRM can stall the pirate version for 6 months or a year, then most of the people who are really interested in your product will buy it rather than wait for the pirate version. People who download the pirate version of a year-old product generally aren't interested enough that they would buy it if no pirate version was available, so they do not represent lost sales. Anyway, that's the theory.

Unfortunately for Runic, the DRM product they're using for TL2 has already been thoroughly broken. A quick google search can turn up detailed tutorials for cracking programs that use it. That means that a pirate version turning up within days, if not hours, after launch is a realistic possibility. This hypothesis is further supported by the fact that someone already cracked the... um... walnut... and did so very, very quickly.

This is not good. It also raises two questions that Runic should be asking themselves:
1. If the DRM is going to provide basically zero protection against piracy, then why bother?
2. If the DRM is going to provide basically zero protection against piracy, is there something else we can do to encourage people to buy rather than pirate?

(The second question is essentially what you ask when you say
what if there were a way to incentivise people to buy the game and further reward those who have already bought it?

)

With regard to question 1:
Runic has frequently stated that a major purpose of having DRM is so that they can offer a limited demo that can be quickly and easily upgraded to a full game. In this role as demo-protection, the DRM product that's being used for TL2 works to some extent. If you assume that people will download the demo rather than going straight for the pirate version, activating is faster and easier than copying out your save files, uninstalling, downloading the pirate version, and recopying your save files.

That said, I think this might not be the best solution. Using a DRM solution for both piracy prevention and demo-protection makes sense. But when you're not actually getting any piracy prevention from the DRM product, it might be time to look at means of demo-protection that are specifically designed as demo-protection. I suspect that Runic could probably design a better demo unlocking system than this DRM product provides if they approached its design from the standpoint of "this is only a demo unlocking system and nothing more."

With regard to question 2:
The one thing Runic can offer as an incentive to buy rather than pirate is the online match-making service. They could enhance this by adding support for guilds or anything else that's going to leave you feeling like you've missed out if you don't have access to it. (This is also an argument against private server support since that would take away the only carrot Runic has to offer.)

I have one technical concern though: I am afraid that Runic is using the DRM product incorrectly in a way that renders the online match-making service insecure. The documentation for the DRM product says that you are supposed to set it up like this: 1. User enters serial key into client. 2. Client sends serial key to server. 3. Server validates serial key and returns a different activation key (invisible to user). 4. Client validates activation key and saves it in its "secret place" so that it knows it already activated next time it runs.
Making the serial key different from the activation key is important because it keeps the serial key algorithm secret even if the activation key algorithm is discovered by cracking the client. (And, as discussed above, we know that the client is going to get cracked very, very fast.)
There are reports of.. um... walnut... key generators that generate keys that work for validating a Runic Games Account for walnut access. I haven't verified these reports, so maybe they're bullshit. If they're bullshit, then there's nothing to worry about. If they're not bullshit, that implies that Runic is not keeping the serial key different from the activation key, and that means that the cracking the client will also crack the online match-making service. That would be bad.

If someone yellow is reading this, you might double-check to make sure serial keys are different from activation keys when TL2 launches.

(Alternatively, removing activation altogether (and using some other means of demo-protection) would leave crackers with nothing in the client to back-engineer.)


One last comment on the DRM product: Its documentation states that it saves one or more encrypted copies of the activation key in one or more deceptively named registry keys or files (usually within the Windows directory) and that it does not remove them when the game is uninstalled. This is not cool. Registry entries should stay within the TL2 registry group; Files should stay within the TL2 directory; and both should be deleted upon an uninstall. (Also, it's not like there's a single person in the entire world who has the skills to do everything else needed to crack the DRM, but lacks the skills necessary to find these files/reg entries. So what legitimate anti-piracy purpose does this serve?)
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby sadron » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:56 am

If I find any of the trash who flauntingly say I pirated the game lawlz I'll be looking for ANY WAY to instaban that vermin from my game.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Ragnar119 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:58 am

sadron wrote:If I find any of the trash who flauntingly say I pirated the game lawlz I'll be looking for ANY WAY to instaban that vermin from my game.

He can't join your game, because he can't play online, only lan, or with hamachi
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby blackout23 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:03 am

Aren't there public serveres listed trough a Master Relay Server? I'd like to host a few public games
at home. I have quite a beefy internet connection with 100MBps Up and Downstream. CPU and RAM
shouldn't be a problem either.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby gold163 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:06 am

blackout23 wrote:Aren't there public serveres listed trough a Master Relay Server? I'd like to host a few public games
at home. I have quite a beefy internet connection with 100MBps Up and Downstream. CPU and RAM
shouldn't be a problem either.


I don't know what you're asking here. Online play is only peer-to-peer, the server is only for account authentication and matchmaking through lobby list. Runic has stated that they might add server support but there isn't a definite answer on that.
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby Trinexx » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:54 am

Tejasrex wrote:Lets be honest someone steals a game, plays the game, likes the game, can keep playing the game, but because they like the game they are going to buy it? Doesn't make sense because they have the game already.


I originally pirated Torchlight 1. I liked it, I bought it, and I convinced 7 of my friends to pre-order Torchlight 2. So yes, that does happen. Frequently. My original act of piracy put over $150 into Runic's pocket.

Almost everyone I know that has pirated software, music, or movies all have a similar version of the same response. "The artist/studio/software company make so much money they won't miss one copy".
In my opinion a lot gamers go the Pirate Route just to see if a game is worth shelling out the money or not. Companies and developers can cut down on some of the piracy just by providing a demo.


I'm not throwing down $50+ on a game before I know if it's any good. No way in hell am I doing that after I got burned on Spore's collector edition.

One of the best things one can do to fight piracy, that is if they truly want to fight it people you know who do it, treat them for what it is, theft. If you went with a friend into a store and they stole $60 or even as little as $20 bucks of clothes, booze, etc, would you keep associating with them?


Apples and oranges
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Re: TL2 and Piracy

Postby DarkTails » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:36 pm

Amazing, everything makes sense now that you've explained it in pig form! :p
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