Skill damage mechanics

[Ctuchik]

So, anyone figured it out yet? Still a confused mess?

[lamabbio]

Yes, I did. And Ember Bolt already lists the damage post-magic stat on the tooltip (the damage you see in the +x poison damage is the damage WITH your magic stat already calculated in; compare a high level alch to a low level alch but the skill the same level, and you'll see the high level alch's does a lot more damage).

Sorry I misunderstood a little of your first post, I thought u applied "twice" the magic bonus, but now I recognize its not the case

So to repeat. If you have zero magic stat (or close to zero) and virtually no weapon damage, then the skills do the predicted amount of damage. However as you add magic and weapon damage, the skill damage goes up slower than the damage formula suggests, to the same level 1 monsters.

I'm going to add this to the main topic, if u agree

Finally I'm going to explain my currently main problem: I can't explain why I do so much damage with Ember Lance. I got a skill-listed damage of +330-825 fire damage, a weapon of 474 dps (174-347 base dmg), a total critical chance of 43% and 200% bonus to critical damage, a total of 37% enchanced fire damage. I see crits up to 7k. Assuming monster (level 50 or so) fire res is about 200 (I checked this by using Pyre that deals in my case ~530 fire damage over 3 seconds, but damage displayed is always about 330) the highest theorical crit I have to simulate is about 7200, or about 7500 if we think that the monster has also a 300 physical damage reduction and that the % weapon damage added is only of physical type.
Ofc understand this maybe impossibile if we don't understand first the damage mechanism withouth the critical effect, but maybe significative to report my "higher" than expected damage.

So, anyone figured it out yet? Still a confused mess?

A bit

[Dzheph]

Assuming monster (level 50 or so) fire res is about 200 (I checked this by using Pyre that deals in my case ~530 fire damage over 3 seconds, but damage displayed is always about 330) the highest theorical crit I have to simulate is about 7200, or about 7500 if we think that the monster has also a 300 physical damage reduction and that the % weapon damage added is only of physical type.

Hate to say, but even this is very uncertain. Depending on how resistance is applied, and how many ticks of pyre damage, the resistance might be a much lower number applied many times.

[Ctuchik]

So, from what I can see it's like this.

Spells that deal damage can have a +damage component, and a %of weapon DPS component.

The +damage is always shown on the tooltip and can be increased by stats as indicated by the little strength, dexterity or magic icons with percentages next to them. You can actually see this by equipping and unequipped items with stat bonuses, the damage shown on the tooltip will change. I can't find a direct formula here, it might be different on a per skill basis. It's almost definitely a percentage increase though. Spells that don't have any little icons on them therefore always do the same base damage, but I am pretty sure there is some inconsistencies here, maybe the devs forgot to put icons on some spells.

As for the %of weapon DPS I have no idea. Could be just straight from the DPS listen on the weapon, could be taking stats into account. What about dual wielding?

I am also seeing much bigger crits than what should be possible. Mostly on bosses. Maybe something to do with the reduce armor on hit mod. Maybe armor can go in the negative?

[lamabbio]

The +damage is always shown on the tooltip and can be increased by stats as indicated by the little strength, dexterity or magic icons with percentages next to them. You can actually see this by equipping and unequipped items with stat bonuses, the damage shown on the tooltip will change. I can't find a direct formula here, it might be different on a per skill basis. It's almost definitely a percentage increase though. Spells that don't have any little icons on them therefore always do the same base damage, but I am pretty sure there is some inconsistencies here, maybe the devs forgot to put icons on some spells.

Check my first post, you'll get formulas from there.

[Ctuchik]

That is some awesome work man. How many skills have you found that are missing the icon? Rain of arrows seems to be one of em as well.

You should totally update the wiki, it is a bit light on stats and numbers atm.

http://en.runicgamesfansite.com/rgwiki/ ... =Main_Page

[lamabbio]

You should totally update the wiki, it is a bit light on stats and numbers atm.

Have not much time this period Feel free to update the wiki with what I posted, if you like.

Just checked that Vanquisher's skill "Arrow Hail" is 50% based on Dexterity.

[Ethereal]

Big mistake!
I found I forgot to copy the Total damage fomular from my document yesterday.
Now I've post it up.
_____________________________________
Sorry for post so late.really busy after found the formula.
I don't know if it easy to understand,and there're still some content about skill.But I'm really busy these days.
So,only sorry again..

all damage formula accurate to 1 point.consloe combat log tested.
if i can't represent clearly,please ask,I'll reply as I can( if I have time )
——————————————————————————

Damage Displayed on Character Panel

Necessary Explanation and Notation

Result we want:
Elemental Damage : displays after magic attribute value
Physical Damage : doesn't display in game
Melee/Ranged Damage : displays after str/dex attribute value

Damage source:
(notation for short)
(A:AP/AE) weapon basic damage: display below weapon name, white color font, categorie into physical/elemental(fire/ice/lightning/poison)
(E:EP/EE) weapon enchanted damage : list in weapon attribute, blue color font, categorie into physical/elemental(fire/ice/lightning/poison)
(S1) socket damage : provided by socketable ember on the weapon you're using ,yellow color font
(S2) socket damage : provided by socketable ember on the weapon you're not using ,yellow color font
(I stress using for somethimes you'll duel wield )
(X) extra damage : the ring and necklace's attribute + XX elemental damage ( +5 ice damage, for example ), blue color font

Bonus source:
(notation for short)
(B1)main attribute bonus : str for melee weapon (include staff); dex for ranged weapon (include wand).one point attribute for 1%
(B2)magic attribute bonus : one point for 1%
(B3)expertise bonus : form weapon expertise skill. Only works when skill match your weapon
(B4)duel bonus : duel wielding skill bonus.Only works when you put any two item in your two hands, include wand and shield.(bug?)
(B5)+X% physical damage : item attribute
(B6)+X% elemental damage(fire,ice,lightning,or poison) : item attribute.Only works when matches your damage source type
(B7)+X% melee/ranged damage : item attribute, and alchemist's "infuse" skill.Only works when match your damage type,staff counts as melee, wand ranged

Min and Max Damage:
Damage Min=Damage Max/2

Elemental Damage Max(Counts every type separately)=(AE+EE)*(1+B1+B2+B3+B4+B5+B6+B7) + (S1+X)*(1+B2+[B5]+B6) +S1
[note]:B5 write here only works when S1 is physical,and physical Damage Ember really works here:(

Physical Damage Max = (AP+EP)*(1+B1+B3+B4+B5+B7)+S1

Melee/Ranged Damage Max = Elemental Damage Max + Physical Damage Max

________________________________________________________________________

Damage you actual does

New notation:
Total damage : easy to understand
Basis damage / Elemental damage(type : physical) / Elemental damage(type : fire/ice/lightning/poison) : 3 damage type that game mechanics use
Total damage(important) =Basis damage + Elemental damage(type : phy ) + Elemental damage(type : f+i+l+p)

Basis damage=(AP+EP)*(1+B1+B3+B4+B5+B7)
Elemental damage(type : phy)=S1(phy)*(1+1+B1+B4+B5+B7)+S2(phy)+X(actually there're no trinket provide phy damage)
Elemental damage(type : f+i+l+p)=(AE+EE)*(1+B1+B2+B3+B4+B6+B7)+S1*(1+1+B1+B4+B6+B7)+S2+X



_______________________
tips wrote in hurry:

magic weapon expertise works only on panel damage value.It actually does nothing(bug)
some skill's fixed damage has attribute bonus without signal(arrow hail,dex 50%;pyre,ice shock,ember strike,magic, 100%)
actual DPS:Total damage max* speed factor(fastest:1.7;average:1.5;slow:1.2;slowest:1.0; vary little for different weapon),faster attack/cast does'nt affect this value
skill with XX% weapon DPS use this value
skill with XX% weapon damage use Total damage

most skill use your right hand's weapon,but slash use both

damage monster got=damage -damage absorbtion(armor and resis affect),not % based
damage absorbtion=armor or resis *(1+defense%+armor expertise(40%))

skill's fixed damage display=damage basis(base on skill level)*(1+attribute bonus(1 percent per attribute point)*bonus percent(50%,100%,like this)
(damage basis need exclude started stat point's effect)
skill's fixed damage final done=skill's fixed damage display*[1+(+X% fire/ice damge)] damage bonus type must match the skill's damage type

ember strike,ember lightning,ember shock's X%weapondamage doesn't work(bug)

critical damage=original damage*(1+100%+ 120%(skill)+X%(item bonus))

spectal decay works independent,damage final=damage*(1+decay bonus),but works only to physical damage)

new elemental damage type found:physical & elemental(all),only mangus's necklace has this attribute

all skill(include explode arrow like)'s using speed affect by faster cast speed, not faster attack

[lamabbio]

@Ethereal
Then with,for example, Ember Lance I should do only the listed spell damage * fire damage bonus from equip * critical bonus? That doesn't work :/
I'll check your formula for shown res and damage on "C" sheet.

[mrtek]

Is there any other skill that are affected by attributes without signal beside those skills:
some skill's fixed damage has attribute bonus without signal(arrow hail,dex 50%;pyre,ice shock,ember strike,magic, 100%)

[Ethereal]

@Ethereal
Then with,for example, Ember Lance I should do only the listed spell damage * fire damage bonus from equip * critical bonus? That doesn't work :/
I'll check your formula for shown res and damage on "C" sheet.

for ember lance
(B for short)Its fixed damage shown in "S"=basis damage*(1+magic%*50%)
(W for short)Its damage depends on weapon damage part=Total damage (I give the formula above)* 8%. this part won't display in "s" panel
(other skills with both fixed damage and weapon depends damage works like this,but DPS depends skill use DPS,not Total damage)

Its actual damage=B*(1+ X% increases fire damage)+W

still,ember lance have something special。It's cast speed is so fast that sometimes the game will count two or three attack as one,and the damage value display in screen with yellow font will be a value combine two or three attack( It means the value will be extra large,it's doubled or tripled normal value)

[Ethereal]

Is there any other skill that are affected by attributes without signal beside those skills:
some skill's fixed damage has attribute bonus without signal(arrow hail,dex 50%;pyre,ice shock,ember strike,magic, 100%)

sorry,butI hve no time to test now.
You can just change your stat to watch the number display on "S" panel.
Console command 'resetstats','strength XX',etc will be useful.

[mrflippy]

How were you guys testing with the combat log? I enabled it, and the damage it displays doesn't match what the floating combat text displays.

I enabled the following settings in settings.txt: Combat log, log console, logic logging

I took off my char's weapons and items that added damage, and cast the Ember Bolt spell.

The combat log looks like this:

20:47:11: Combat Rolls for Character : <character name>
20:47:11: Base Weapon Damage Range 0-0
20:47:11: Rolled Weapon Damage 0
20:47:11: Damage after armor absorption 1
20:47:11: Totalled Damage 1

But the floating combat text ranges between "glancing blow" and "7" or "8" it seems.

I would have expected the "Totalled Damage" amount to equal the floating combat numbers. What am I missing here?

Edit: And Ember Shock doesn't show up in the combat log at all. This is bizarre.

[jaywinner]

The answer may very well be right in front of me but I just want to confirm: when using a skill that uses XX% of DPS, will it use the raw dps of the weapon or the "actual dps" calculated above?

[Calypsopoxta]

Maybe it only uses total attack damage if it's an attack with that weapon, otherwise base weapon dps, seems like a simpler choice to make something scale by. That way it doesn't rely on you having every skill/item imaginable to buff it to make it do the damage it was intended to be capable of.

I couldn't make it through ethereals post, sorry, just looking for a quick answer: Is MWE the only expertise that adds only base weapin damage? I had a theory that ALL(or most) percentile modifiers added only base (i.e. 40, 40, and 60% boosts to 100 dps is not 313.6 but simply 240).

[Ruel]

Using Ethereals post as input, i've been trying to reproduce some numbers and have come to some small adjustments.

Assumptions:
I'm currently using a level 23 alchemist for computations.
I am not taking into consideration bonus types I don't have:
- melee/ranged weapon bonus
- duel wield bonus

The formulae do incorporate the following damage types:
- (primary) weapon base and damage (displayed in white) and enhanced damage (displayed in blue)
- (primary) weapon socket damage (displayed in yellow) and enhanced damage on other gear
(in fact i have "+X fire" and "+ X ice" on jewelry and "+X physical & elemental" on my boots so i cannot say anything precise about secondary weapon enhanced and socket damage, however anything else i'm pretty convinced is factored in)

I've been able to reproduce the displayed:
- 'Weapon Elemental Damage you currently inflict'
- 'Ranged damage you currently inflict'
- 'Melee damage you currently inflict'

Also, i've been able to reproduce the displayed skill damage of:
- Ember lance 1
- Ember bolt 1

I can only assume the resulting damage output of these skills after applying 'X% Increased <Element> Damage ) and crit factors, since that just required a lot of trying.

General guidelines
- Damage has to be calculated per element (physical, fire, poison, electric, ice, physical & elemental), and can then afterwards be summed. However, torchlight seems to be doing a lot of intermediate "rounding up", which is why your numbers may be off by 1-3.
- There seem to be 2 distinguished damage types, namely 1) weapon damage and 2) all other "+damage" (including weapon socket damage). Weapon damage is increased by +expertise and str/dex, whereas other gear +damage is not.
- Weapon damage is affected by str/dex (depending on weapon type), magic (except pure physical), expertise and +%increased <type> damage.
- Other damage (from sockets & armor) is affected by magic (again, except pure physical), and +%increased <type> damage.
- The special "Physical & Elemental Damage" is affected only by "+% Physical & Elemental damage" and not by any other +% Element damage (except maybe +% physical, but i havent found that yet). Besides, it ("+% Physical & Elemental Damage") seems to have a double effect. For example, 2% increased Physical & Elemental damage) will affect your damage by 4%. I can only assume that the logic behind this is that is first increases the specific element, and then adds another same amound of physical.
- Damage from gear is only applied when you actually use a weapon (seems a bit weird). So without a weapon and with +10 ice damage on your neck, you will still do 0 magical damage.
- I think the melee unarmed base damage is not applied anymore when you equip a melee weapon.
- Min damage = (Max damage / 2) (not for skills and spells, only for your weapon damage)

Now, "Magical damage you currently afflict" is the sum of ROUNDUP(weapon damage) and ROUNDUP(other damage) for all damage types except pure physical (yes, including Physical & Elemental). The melee or ranged damage is the magical damage increased by your pure physical damage (also do roundup for weapon damage and other damage).

Skill "display" damage
As for skill damage: the tooltip (both in your dashboard and in your skillbook "S") is affected by exactly the percentage of your str/dex/magic as shown in the small icons on the tooltip. I'll explain:
If you skills says it is affected by 50% (0.5)magic, and you have - let's say - 80 magic (0.8), then your spell damage is multiplied by (1+0.8*0.5 =) 1.4.

The number however is applied to the base skill damage, which can be found by assuming you have 0 str/dex/magic).
My ember lance (1/10) shows a maximum damage of 249. I have 102 magic (x1.02). The base max ember lance (1/10) damage thereby becomes (with a magical effect of 50%=0.5) 249/(1+1.02 x 0.5) = 141.1

Having this number, my ember lance with +1.02 magic bonus in fact does 141.1*0.5*1.02 = 249 (wow, surprising).

As for minimum damage, the factor of the maximum damage seems to vary between skills but is consistent for different levels of the same skill. Also, it does not have to be a nice round number. So far, I have found:

Ember lance: min/max = 0.4
Iceshock: min/max = 0.715 (well at least somewhere inbetween 0.71 and 0.72)

Playing with the base max damage, the min/max factor, you can find the correct factor and base damage for so that for your amount of mag/str/dex the display amount will be correct.

Output damage.
Currently, I assume that the actual output damage =
X = displayed skill damage (either min or max, same calculation for either)
output = X * (1 + % increased <dmg type> damage) + (%weapondamage * ranged/melee damage you currently inflict). I'm also unsure whether or not to apply minimum weapon damage to the minimum skill damage and maximum weapon damage to the maximum skill damage to get the real minmum and maximum output damage.

Critical bonus should be applied after that:
With 120% increased crit damage from skill and 20% increased from gear bonus:)
Crit damage = output damage * (1 + 100% + 120% + 20%)

I'm gonna start tonight with seeing how these output and crit damage numbers go with the "real world".

[ergates]

Debugging experts to the rescue!

[Ruel]

Base skill damage depends on the skill's affix level. e.g. ember bolt level 1 uses affix EMBERFIREBALL level2.
The skill damage then depends on the MONSTER_DAMAGE table, which has a number for each level.
For level 2, the damage is 20.

Then, each affix has a MIN and MAX value. The EMBERFIREBALL has MIN 45 and MAX 65, giving it a base damage of (0.45*20) 9 - (0.65*20) 13. (round up!)

The affix also specifies the MAGIC/STRENGTH/DEXTERITY dependency, which is MAGIC 50 for EMBERFIREBALL . The magic bonus is then applied to the base damage. Thus, a starter alchemist (10 magic) has an Ember Bolt 1 damage of (1.05 * 9 - 1.05 * 13 =) = 10 - 14 (round up!).

[Ruel]

Regardless of the nice formulae for "melee/ranged damage you inflict, the resulting numbers seem not at all related to the damage you actually do.

I have been testing to find the formula for the actual "%weapon damage" component of skill damage and I stumbled upon one formula for all weapon damage, where you only have to insert the actual percentage. For your "attack" skill, this is obviously 100%.

Damage is calculated per element type (physical, fire, poison, electric, ice, all). Summing the results gives you your max damage. Min = Max / 2.

The funniest thing seems to be that "magic weapons expertise" does absolutely nothing to your attack and skill damage. So use it only for the requirement bonus.

So far I tested with 3 different damage types:

(A) base weapon damage (displayed in white on your weapon)
(E) enhanced weapon damage (the "+XX <element> damage" displayed in blue on your weapon)
(S1) primary weapon socket damage (displayed in yellow)

The following bonuses seem to be used:
D strength/dexterity divided by 100 (depending on weapon type, e.g. 0.5 for 50 dex using a wand)
M magic (e.g. 1.18 for 118 magic)
I = bonus percentage (+% increased <element> damage)
W weirdness - a number that is different per element, that is applied to primary weapon socket damage with. Seems totally weird by i couldn't trace it back to any bonus.
S = skill (1.0 if you use attack, 0.2 if your skill depends 20% on weapon damage)

So, the following elements are applied to the elemental components of the above damage and bonus types:

Physical damage = (A*(1+D+I) + E)*S + S1*W
Elemental damage = (A*(1+D+I+M) + E)*S + S1*W

Some conclusions:
- the 20% weapon damage in your skill is not applied to sockets; these sockets are even increased by W.
- No expertise bonus (at least not from magical weapons expertise)
- As for W, this value seems to be 1.3 for fire damage and 1.6 for ice damage: havent looked at the others yet.
- Your % increased damage is only applied to base weapon damage

Haven't looked at trinket sockets, secondary weapons and enhanced damage on armor yet.
Hard to believe that a fixed multiplier is used, maybe related to something, but what? Otherwise, find out fixed values for other elements.
Look at crit damage, which is most likely applied after these calculations.

So although my "ranged damage you currently inflict" saying 372-743, i only do 314-628.

[mooosicle]

Not to beat a dead horse guys but I have a few questions. Btw great work on all who tested

Total damage(important) =Basis damage + Elemental damage(type : phy ) + Elemental damage(type : f+i+l+p)

Basis damage=(AP+EP)*(1+B1+B3+B4+B5+B7)
Elemental damage(type : phy)=S1(phy)*(1+1+B1+B4+B5+B7)+S2(phy)+X
Elemental damage(type : f+i+l+p)=(AE+EE)*(1+B1+B2+B3+B4+B6+B7)+S1*(1+1+B1+B4+B6+B7)+S2+X
actual DPS:Total damage max* speed factor(fastest:1.7;average:1.5;slow:1.2;slowest:1.0; vary little for different weapon),faster attack/cast does'nt affect this value

So I'm looking at these formulas. Do these conclusions make sense?

- +20 EE poison damage adds just as much real dps as +20 EP physical damage, given neglible magic stat
- excluding the slight disprenacy with + damage trinkets, and very slow/very fast weapons is the displayed dps on my weapons accurate?
- If you factor in enemy resists, you want most of the damage to be concentrated into as little elements as possible If an enemy has 500 in each of the armor/elemental resists, the more elements you have on your weapon, the more times the armor/resist is applied.
- In two unenchanted weapons with same dps very fast > slowest, as all further enchanted enhanced damage scales higher on faster weapons

Also some questions
Is the % chance of AoE effects on elemental weapons affected by stats or the amount of damage? Does +500 lightning damage deliver AoE lightning damage more often than than +5 lightning damage? Is proc chance affected by str/dex or magic stat?
When it does AoE, the area damage done will be Elemental damage(type : f+i+l+p)=(AE+EE)*(1+B1+B2+B3+B4+B6+B7)+S1*(1+1+B1+B4+B6+B7)+S2+X?